Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

Former Former · 14-07-2020 1:26pm

molloyjh wrote: »

We need at least 2 carriers in our back row. For me as it stands our best option is CJ, VDF & Conan/Doris. If Leavy can get back to form then he enters the conversation, but that remains to be seen. Beirne is nowhere near a starting berth in the back row. Too many others offer more than him. Has he even nailed down a starting place for Munster? From recollection he's been moved between second row and back row a bit, starting and benching?

Agree with all of this. Stander is our best 6 and (I think) is better there than at 8. I don't think Conan is a long-term answer so I'd love to see Doris get another run after his Six Nations didn't pan out.

At 7, I think VDF is a lot more secure than people here think, Leavy has a lot of ground to make up but if he does it will be awesome to have two very good and quite different options.

I don't think Beirne will rise above the 19/20 jersey tbh. He might not even be starting for Munster (in any position) this season.

Shefwedfan · 14-07-2020 1:48pm

Former Former wrote: »

Agree with all of this. Stander is our best 6 and (I think) is better there than at 8. I don't think Conan is a long-term answer so I'd love to see Doris get another run after his Six Nations didn't pan out.

At 7, I think VDF is a lot more secure than people here think, Leavy has a lot of ground to make up but if he does it will be awesome to have two very good and quite different options.

I don't think Beirne will rise above the 19/20 jersey tbh. He might not even be starting for Munster (in any position) this season.

Beirne will start at club level but at International I dont see it against the top teams. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

Not that I have said it before but I want to see
Conan, VDF, Stander as a backrow. Doris has to be the backup at the moment to Conan.

The Scotland team are poor, the Welsh had a nightmare against us. We beat them at home which to be fair most of us expected. The big game was England and it was telling again the backrow as a unit got hammered again. When Ireland are playing well the backrow are playing well, it is critical to the team.

I know options limited with Conan out and then Doris taking a hit on head but we need to switch it up, if we play Stander/VDF/POM v Italy we will win. If we play them against France we won't. It is as simple as that. Against the top teams it is not good enough. Pointing back to 2018 is useless at this stage.

molloyjh · 14-07-2020 2:00pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Beirne will start at club level but at International I dont see it against the top teams. Hopefully he proves me wrong.

Not that I have said it before but I want to see
Conan, VDF, Stander as a backrow. Doris has to be the backup at the moment to Conan.

The Scotland team are poor, the Welsh had a nightmare against us. We beat them at home which to be fair most of us expected. The big game was England and it was telling again the backrow as a unit got hammered again. When Ireland are playing well the backrow are playing well, it is critical to the team.

I know options limited with Conan out and then Doris taking a hit on head but we need to switch it up, if we play Stander/VDF/POM v Italy we will win. If we play them against France we won't. It is as simple as that. Against the top teams it is not good enough. Pointing back to 2018 is useless at this stage.

While I largely agree, I would say that the pack as a whole have been an issue since the start of 2019, not just the back row. I think a lot of that is a confidence thing. We took our eye off the ball in the 2019 6Ns which took us down a slippery slope that will take some time to come back from fully. But its not like our front 5 were domonating the contact areas on those games where we really struggled.

Wegians89 · 14-07-2020 2:14pm

6 stander
7 vdf
8 Doris
20 leavy

Impact from leavy could be a game changer, assuming he gets back to his best

salmocab · 14-07-2020 2:21pm

Wegians89 wrote: »

6 stander
7 vdf
8 Doris
20 leavy

Impact from leavy could be a game changer, assuming he gets back to his best

For me Leavy is the best player in the back row, obviously this is based on pre injury but if he gets back there I think he’ll start. Not sure of where but he brings something the others don’t, he’s actually incredibly strong over the ball in defence and must be an enormous pain the hole to play against. He’s also surprisingly quick although his strange run makes him look slower as he seems to run from the knee down. I’ve mentioned this before but a mate of mine reckons if he was a kiwi he’d have been crowned the new Richie Mc Caw.

Former Former · 14-07-2020 2:50pm

salmocab wrote: »

For me Leavy is the best player in the back row, obviously this is based on pre injury but if he gets back there I think he’ll start.

Maybe this is harsh, but Leavy's last game for Ireland was nearly two years ago and at a time when Ireland were on an incredible run of form. Now, he had a great 6N that year, but maybe if he'd been around for the malaise of 2019, who knows? I don't think we really know where his true level is yet.

Eod100 · 14-07-2020 2:51pm

Reckon the November series will go ahead at all?

Know global calendar was meant to be sorted by end of last month and apparently is meant to be sorted by end of this month. If it goes on much longer wonder does that mean less chance it will

Shefwedfan · 14-07-2020 2:58pm

Eod100 wrote: »

Reckon the November series will go ahead at all?

Know global calendar was meant to be sorted by end of last month and apparently is meant to be sorted by end of this month. If it goes on much longer wonder does that mean less chance it will

Which November series? the original one is now gone. The new one which seems to throw up new dates and combinations every week will happen in some sort of capacity unless a large outbreak in Ireland

salmocab · 14-07-2020 2:58pm

Former Former wrote: »

Maybe this is harsh, but Leavy's last game for Ireland was nearly two years ago and at a time when Ireland were on an incredible run of form. Now, he had a great 6N that year, but maybe if he'd been around for the malaise of 2019, who knows? I don't think we really know where his true level is yet.

He was excellent up to then I think, for both Leinster and Ireland. Obviously he might have got dragged down when the team went south a bit but I think the Leavy who got injured is the best back row in the country.

bilston · 14-07-2020 3:04pm

Eod100 wrote: »

Reckon the November series will go ahead at all?

Know global calendar was meant to be sorted by end of last month and apparently is meant to be sorted by end of this month. If it goes on much longer wonder does that mean less chance it will

There was talk of a 6Ns plus Fiji and Japan a few weeks ago. Not sure what format it would follow.

To be honest the rugby authorities need to start making decisions.

It feels like Rugby is being left behind and is in danger of being forgotten about.

Buer · 14-07-2020 3:11pm

salmocab wrote: »

For me Leavy is the best player in the back row, obviously this is based on pre injury but if he gets back there I think he’ll start. Not sure of where but he brings something the others don’t, he’s actually incredibly strong over the ball in defence and must be an enormous pain the hole to play against. He’s also surprisingly quick although his strange run makes him look slower as he seems to run from the knee down. I’ve mentioned this before but a mate of mine reckons if he was a kiwi he’d have been crowned the new Richie Mc Caw.

He's a good, strong carrier and not as slow as he sometimes appears. I think people remember the Saracens try where he looked like he was running in quicksand.

But he's not agile or quick off the mark. I think it's potentially his only genuine weakness as it impacts his defensive ability. The Australian try which completely burned him in midfield was a real glaring example. I don't think Van der Flier would have made the tackle but he would have read it and adjusted to at least slow Beale down. Leavy was like a bus trying to slow down and turn.

Eod100 · 14-07-2020 3:26pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Which November series? the original one is now gone. The new one which seems to throw up new dates and combinations every week will happen in some sort of capacity unless a large outbreak in Ireland

Ah I kinda assumed that about original one but didn't know it had been cancelled. Is the new one this season's 6N games with other test games thrown in?

Shefwedfan · 14-07-2020 4:15pm

Eod100 wrote: »

Ah I kinda assumed that about original one but didn't know it had been cancelled. Is the new one this season's 6N games with other test games thrown in?

Something like that, all sorts of rumours

Shefwedfan · 14-07-2020 4:20pm

salmocab wrote: »

He was excellent up to then I think, for both Leinster and Ireland. Obviously he might have got dragged down when the team went south a bit but I think the Leavy who got injured is the best back row in the country.

At one stage people feared he might not walk again properly. I think if the guy gets back playing rugby with no long term risk it will be a bonus. Anything after that is incredible.

Prior to injury he was the best in Ireland

Richie_Rich89 · 16-07-2020 3:16pm

Wegians89 wrote: »

6 stander
7 vdf
8 Doris
20 leavy

Impact from leavy could be a game changer, assuming he gets back to his best

I don't really see it with van der Flier. You'd be looking for someone who doesn't make a substantial impact physically to really excel when it comes to reading the game and being in the right place at the right time to support play. I don't really get that sense with van der Flier, and his link play doesn't really stand out either. Connors could give you tackle count like JvdF, but make more of an impact with more dominant tackles. Then Leinster and Ireland also have Leavy and Penny for openside, and Moloney and O'Brien in the academy - who are perhaps suited to openside best of all out of the three backrow positions (Moloney due to his relative lack of size and O'Brien due to his smarts and handling skill).

This might sound very, very harsh right now, but if Leavy can get back near his best I think Leinster should maybe be thinking about moving van der Flier on when his contract is next up for renewal.

All that said, it's probably unfair to judge him from playing in such an unbalanced backrow.

Richie_Rich89 · 16-07-2020 3:23pm

Best uncapped at international level IQ XXIIIs

Leinster
1. Peter Dooley
2. Dan Sheehan
3. Vakhtang Abdaladze
4. Ryan Baird
5. Ross Molony
6. Josh Murphy
7. Will Connors
8. Brian Deeny
9. Jamison Gibson-Park
10. Ciarán Frawley
11. Cian Kelleher
12. Conor O'Brien
13. Jimmy O'Brien
14. Tommy O'Brien
15. Hugo Keenan

16. John McKee
17. Edward Byrne
18. Thomas Clarkson
19. Jack Dunne
20. Scott Penny
21. Rowan Osborne
22. Harry Byrne
23. Liam Turner

Munster
1. Jeremy Loughman
2. Kevin O'Byrne
3. James French
4. Gavin Coombes
5. Thomas Ahern
6. Fineen Wycherley
7. John Hodnett
8. Jack O'Sullivan
9. Craig Casey
10. J.J. Hanrahan
11. Shane Daly
12. Dan Goggin
13. Alex McHenry
14. Calvin Nash
15. Matt Gallagher

16. Rhys Marshall
17. Liam O'Connor
18. ?
19. Paddy Kelly/Eoin O'Connor
20. Jack Daly
21. Nick McCarthy
22. Ben Healy
23. Liam Coombes

Connacht
1. Paddy McAllister
2. Shane Delahunt
3. Dominic Robertson-McCoy
4. Gavin Thornbury
5. Oisín Dowling
6. Sean O'Brien
7. Jarrad Butler
8. Paul Boyle
9. Caolin Blade
10. Conor Fitzgerald
11. Alex Wootton
12. Peter Robb
13. Tom Farrell
14. Peter Sullivan
15. Stephen Fitzgerald

16. Dylan Tierney-Martin
17. Denis Buckley
18. Jack Aungier
19. Niall Murray
20. Eoghan Masterson
21. Stephen Kerins
22. Conor Dean
23. Oran McNulty

Ulster
1. Eric O'Sullivan
2. Adam McBurney
3. Tom O'Toole
4. David O'Connor
5. Alan O'Connor
6. Matthew Rea
7. Reuben Crothers
8. Nick Timoney
9. Dave Shanahan
10. Billy Burns
11. Rob Lyttle
12. James Hume
13. Stuart Moore
14. Robert Baloucoune
15. Louis Ludik

16. John Andrew
17. Andrew Warwick
18. Ross Kane
19. David McCann
20. Greg Jones
21. Johnny Stewart
22. Angus Curtis
23. Ethan McIlroy

Ireland?
1. Peter Dooley
2. Kevin O'Byrne
3. Tom O'Toole
4. Ryan Baird
5. Gavin Thornbury
6. Josh Murphy
7. Will Connors
8. Nick Timoney
9. Jamison Gibson-Park
10. Ciarán Frawley
11. Shane Daly
12. Dan Goggin
13. Tom Farrell
14. Robert Baloucoune
15. Matt Gallagher

16. Adam McBurney
17. Eric O'Sullivan
18. Dominic Robertson-McCoy
19. Alan O'Connor
20. Paul Boyle
21. Caolin Blade
22. Billy Burns
23. Jimmy O'Brien

Paul Smeenus · 16-07-2020 4:51pm

Interesting selections - lots I'd agree with.

From an Ulster perspective, wouldn't have Timoney in the Ireland team and would have Rea Jr ahead of McCann on the Ulster bench. You've also forgotten about Michael Lowry, who'd be at FB for Ulster or possibly back-up out-half.

If you want 23s with the Most Potential, that's one thing. But while Ciaran Frawley could well turn out better in the long term than Billy Burns, he is currently not better than either Burns or Hanrahan. Burns was in the Six Nations squad.

aloooof · 16-07-2020 5:08pm

Keynan Knox for TH qualifies (or does so soon, I think) who would fill your missing Munster spot.

shootermacg · 16-07-2020 6:05pm

There could be an argument for Ian Henderson at six too.

Former Former · 16-07-2020 8:48pm

VM2 showing England v Ireland from 2006. What a cracking game.

The speed of Stringer's service is something else. D'Arcy was unbelievable.

And if you put Geordan Murphy in a position to make a decision, he's going to make the wrong one.

Good times.

Podge_irl · 16-07-2020 9:18pm

I would love to have seen prime Stringer in today's team. Him and ROG were unlucky that their weaknesses amplified the other's but that kind of quick service could be great to see with more threat in midfield.

TomsOnTheRoof · 16-07-2020 9:39pm

Former Former wrote: »

VM2 showing England v Ireland from 2006. What a cracking game.

The speed of Stringer's service is something else. D'Arcy was unbelievable.

And if you put Geordan Murphy in a position to make a decision, he's going to make the wrong one.

Good times.

The other thing about Stringer's passing was the way the ball sat up. It arrived in the receiver's hands in the perfect position to be shifted on.

Forgot how good Horgan was that day and Murphy had a bit of a mare tbh. The other thing that stood out was just how good O'Gara was in his prime. I don't think I've ever seen a better kicker out of hand, whether it was a restart or a kick in behind. However his ability to run a back line, especially considering his lack of any real threat with the ball in hand, was second to none and something he doesn't get much credit for outside of Munster.

thomond2006 · 16-07-2020 9:44pm

Former Former wrote: »

VM2 showing England v Ireland from 2006. What a cracking game.

The speed of Stringer's service is something else. D'Arcy was unbelievable.

And if you put Geordan Murphy in a position to make a decision, he's going to make the wrong one.

Good times.

Those Wilkinson-less years were pretty grim for England. Andy Goode at 10 and I had to google who Dave Walder was on the bench.

Bridge93 · 16-07-2020 9:45pm

Yeah England 2004-2010 were pretty average. Yet made the World Cup final in 2007

crisco10 · 16-07-2020 9:49pm

Thoroughly enjoyed the game.

What a finish from Horgan. It gets better with age.

thomond2006 · 16-07-2020 9:49pm

David Wallace at the 55:30 mark is something to behold:
https://youtu.be/OwgBJPw2oOY?t=4475

crisco10 · 16-07-2020 9:49pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

I found clips on Youtube. David Wallace at the 55:30 mark is something to behold.

That the 50 yard break off scrappy lineout ball?

Bridge93 · 16-07-2020 9:52pm

Great memories. Almost more enjoyable those victories when not weighed down by the expectations today’s teams have. This was the beginning of it all in a very real competitive sense. Beaten on points difference by France twice.

As an aside that’s my favourite ever Ireland jersey

Buer · 17-07-2020 6:49am

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

However his ability to run a back line, especially considering his lack of any real threat with the ball in hand, was second to none and something he doesn't get much credit for outside of Munster.

Steady on. He was a beautiful passer into midfield but he certainly wasn't second to none for running a back line even at his peak. There were several others who would largely and deservedly considered more creative and effective backline managers during that period.

Dunney848 · 17-07-2020 9:19pm

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

I don't really see it with van der Flier. You'd be looking for someone who doesn't make a substantial impact physically to really excel when it comes to reading the game and being in the right place at the right time to support play. I don't really get that sense with van der Flier, and his link play doesn't really stand out either. Connors could give you tackle count like JvdF, but make more of an impact with more dominant tackles. Then Leinster and Ireland also have Leavy and Penny for openside, and Moloney and O'Brien in the academy - who are perhaps suited to openside best of all out of the three backrow positions (Moloney due to his relative lack of size and O'Brien due to his smarts and handling skill).

This might sound very, very harsh right now, but if Leavy can get back near his best I think Leinster should maybe be thinking about moving van der Flier on when his contract is next up for renewal.

All that said, it's probably unfair to judge him from playing in such an unbalanced backrow.

That’s a simplistic comparison. Van set flier is a lot quicker around the pitch and more likely to be able to defend whereas Connors only defends near in. Come up against any sort of decent team with good backs and Van Der Flier is the man you want plugging holes and breaking his ass to cover the 13-15 channels in defence.

Van Der Flier also gains more metres per carry and gets you over the gainline more often, up the park on the front foot and puts the opposition marching and defending backwards. It’s these tiny margins that win tight games and the regular punters don’t see. Connors gives you the same tackle count but who is the better defender to have???? I prefer the player with greater stamina and speed to defend beside me if I’m a back and the clock is in the 78th minute.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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