How will schools be able to go back in September?

Lillyfae · 13-07-2020 05:17PM

froog wrote: »

Lots of people dont use soap properly either. Not sure what your point is here. I assume you dont like shops telling you to disinfect your hands or something?

I carry my own and have no problem using sanitizer if requested. But feel free to rant.

Murple · 13-07-2020 05:19PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

It is more risky, because the sanitiser is less effective.

Germ covered hand turns on tap. Hands washed thoroughly. Clean hand turns off germ covered tap....

Hand sanitiser pump is pushed. Hand sanitiser rubbed all over hand. Person moves on.

r93kaey5p2izun · 13-07-2020 05:19PM

timmy_mallet wrote: »

It is more risky, because the sanitiser is less effective.

So why is it recommended for all to sanitize by WHO and HPSC where adequate water access is not available, such as in schools?

Soap and water may be more effective when dirt/grease is present and against some microbes (coronavirus not currently included in that guidance). But sanitizer is considered better than doing nothing. Hence sanitizer in hospital foyers. And longstanding WHO advice and HPSC guidance on infection control in schools during an outbreak.

the corpo · 13-07-2020 05:27PM

Can't remember where I read, but the younger classes will be discouraged from having their own sanitisers, simply because there's a good chance they might drink them!

Also, another problem I'd not given much thought to, but a friend just got an email from their creche withdrawing after school services, they just won't be able to manage it with mixing from different schools and their own pods etc. Can't imagine it's going to be an uncommon scenario.

JTMan · 13-07-2020 08:01PM

Another international decision made not to reopen schools in the Autumn.

Los Angeles and San Diego have announced their public school systems will not reopen this fall, and will be online only

https://twitter.com/covidperspectiv/status/1282742500008972289

Scoondal · 13-07-2020 09:33PM

Schools in Ireland should not reopen until it is 100% safe to do so.
And teachers should not be paid if they are not doing their job.

glack · 13-07-2020 10:23PM

Im a primary school teacher and I’m really hoping we are back to school relatively normally in September but a lot has to happen to make that work. I’m in 2 at risk groups and also a caregiver for my elderly father. But I’m still hoping to be back at school in September. But I’m nervous that nothing is being done so this can happen safely. I teach in a 42m2 classroom, I’ll have at least 30 students and an SNA this year, we have no sink, the toilets are downstairs at the end of a long corridor and my classroom tables get cleaned maybe once a year if I’m lucky. (Gross I know, I do clean them myself but lots of our staff don’t. And they aren’t paid to clean so that’s fair enough too).

School is one of the only settings where you get 30+ children and adults in a very confined space. Combine that with an inability to socially distance, lack of sinks and poorly cleaned buildings and a lot needs to change to get us back to school. Practical things like:

1. Schools need to know if they will have funds to employ extra cleaners. This needs to happen ASAP. A centralised supply of sanitation equipment etc so schools know they have access to the basic supplies they need. Funding for reopening costs needs to be announced now, not in 6 weeks time.

2. Schools need to know what happens if they cannot manage the 1m social distancing regulations due to class sizes and room sizes. Are children going to rotate half in half out or what. Lots of possibilities here. Teachers need to know now so they can be prepared. On a practical level, if students are in 50% of the time, who is providing work for their time at home while their teacher is unavailable for online teaching as they have the rest of the class to teach? Are students to be provided with “homework” or are they going to be offered video classes, meaningful online learning etc.

3. How will infant classes be managed? In most schools junior infants classes get assistance from SNAs and Special Education Teachers etc in the first few weeks as children settle. This won’t be able to happen this year in the same way. Who will provide support? Many schools do not have in room toilets for these young children who need to be supervised going to the toilet so they don’t get lost/run out the door (happens way more often than you would think!!). Many children have to be taken by the hand to the toilet several times a day so they don’t take the opportunity to run out the gate. Who will do this? Huge hygiene concerns here.

4. School buses. Will they run? And if they will, how will this be managed. Many of the buses that serve our school also collect children from 5 other schools in the vicinity - huge cross contamination risks here.

5. Arriving and leaving-how will this work? A staggered start and finish? This impacts buses too.
Small schools - who will man the gates as the principal is also the teacher. Do we need extra non teaching staff? A COVID officer type role to supervise the arrival and departure of students? (Personally I think this would be great in smaller schools) If so, they will need to be Garda vetted. This takes weeks. Again time needed.

6. Break time arrangements. Are children to play outside? Must they stay in their class groups? Should schools be staggering breaks (lots of knock on effects to this)?

7. Schools are a hot bed of germs. What is the criteria for when a child must be kept home? Should schools take temperatures? What happens when a child becomes sick at school. Who takes care of them until they can be collected? Where should they go while they wait?

Principals and teachers are getting a lot of bad press. But we are just scared. Scared of getting it wrong. Scared to be the school at the centre of a major outbreak. We just want help. And not last minute help either. Proper guidelines. And not a cop out that says each school can make their own arrangements. Crèches got detailed guidelines, we want the same.

Onthefence · 13-07-2020 11:40PM

Scoondal wrote: »

Schools in Ireland should not reopen until it is 100% safe to do so.
And teachers should not be paid if they are not doing their job.

Whether schools reopen for pupils in September or not, I will continue to do my job as I have for the last 20 years, as I did between March 13th and June 30th this year, and I will continue to be paid accordingly. Any employee not doing their job shouldn't be paid, teacher or otherwise.

Leftwaffe · 14-07-2020 12:22AM

Scoondal wrote: »

Schools in Ireland should not reopen until it is 100% safe to do so.
And teachers should not be paid if they are not doing their job.

And when exactly have teachers not been doing their job? If they fail to reopen in September then teachers and students will work online, exactly like they have been from March to May.

Rubbish statement, do better.

...Ghost... · 14-07-2020 01:22AM

jrosen wrote: »

Of course there is. No environment is risk free so if a person has underlying health issues then the risk to them is far greater than the average person. IMO they should be able to stay off work on full pay.

I never mentioned unnecessary risk, in fact I clearly stated that staff should have PPE etc.

While no work place is risk free and completely safe, there are minimum standards expected depending on the sector. We both agree on PPE, great. I mentioned unnecessary risk, naturally expanding the discussion thread.

However, you don’t make sense when suggesting that higher risk employees should be able to stay home even if the proper safety measures are put in place. You are entitled to your opinion i suppose, but I am of the opinion that anyone should be able to stay at home on full pay if their employer cannot provide a safe working environment. We can’t 100% guarantee safety, but to send staff into an environment where they are at a high risk of contracting a potentially fatal infection is idiotic at best. Doctors and Nurses were allowed to opt out of work if they, or a member of their household were immunodeficient/vulnerable and afaik, they were still paid (open to correction).

Jinglejangle69 · 14-07-2020 01:27AM

...Ghost... wrote: »

While no work place is risk free and completely safe, there are minimum standards expected depending on the sector. We both agree on PPE, great. I mentioned unnecessary risk, naturally expanding the discussion thread.

However, you don’t make sense when suggesting that higher risk employees should be able to stay home even if the proper safety measures are put in place. You are entitled to your opinion i suppose, but I am of the opinion that anyone should be able to stay at home on full pay if their employer cannot provide a safe working environment. We can’t 100% guarantee safety, but to send staff into an environment where they are at a high risk of contracting a potentially fatal infection is idiotic at best. Doctors and Nurses were allowed to opt out of work if they, or a member of their household were immunodeficient/vulnerable and afaik, they were still paid (open to correction).

Full pay?????

Lets close all supermarkets with full pay for all Staff..

The real world and teachers don't exist.

JustAThought · 14-07-2020 01:31AM

Many non permanent teacher posts filled by temporary teachers will find themselves not able to rent. Who would want the risk of aharing with a teacher who is in close contact with 30+ kids ( and by default their siblings, family and friends) per day and have that risk coming home to their house. With the threat of teachers also ‘working from home’ there are not many who would also bring an additional 8 hour heating bill on themselves in a houseshare for ‘working from home teachers’.

As regards teachers not bothering their arse working - yes - many people are complaining about this - the only ones that don’t seem to have a clue are the teacher themselves - if this plague has show up anything it is the lazy and clueless and self entitled cohort of teachers who thinks the taxpayer owes them a living for signing in once or twice a day and copying and pasting exercise pages from a workbook to a virtual folder without putting in any actual teaching hours or work themselves - appalling..

thomasdylan · 14-07-2020 06:55AM

...Ghost... wrote: »

Doctors and Nurses were allowed to opt out of work if they, or a member of their household were immunodeficient/vulnerable and afaik, they were still paid (open to correction).

I don't think this was the case. Where I was the options were redeployment to lower risk areas or accommodation was sorted for the workers living with high risk people. This was on site and pretty grim. They were still expected to work.

Daisy 55 · 14-07-2020 07:33AM

Principals and teachers are getting a lot of bad press. But we are just scared. Scared of getting it wrong. Scared to be the school at the centre of a major outbreak. We just want help. And not last minute help either. Proper guidelines. And not a cop out that says each school can make their own arrangements. Crèches got detailed guidelines, we want the same.[/

Exactly!

average_runner · 14-07-2020 07:53AM

Scoondal wrote: »

Schools in Ireland should not reopen until it is 100% safe to do so.
And teachers should not be paid if they are not doing their job.

It was never 100% safe in the past, so why you expect it now?

Kids education has to restart.

average_runner · 14-07-2020 08:00AM

JustAThought wrote: »

Many non permanent teacher posts filled by temporary teachers will find themselves not able to rent. Who would want the risk of aharing with a teacher who is in close contact with 30+ kids ( and by default their siblings, family and friends) per day and have that risk coming home to their house. With the threat of teachers also ‘working from home’ there are not many who would also bring an additional 8 hour heating bill on themselves in a houseshare for ‘working from home teachers’.

As regards teachers not bothering their arse working - yes - many people are complaining about this - the only ones that don’t seem to have a clue are the teacher themselves - if this plague has show up anything it is the lazy and clueless and self entitled cohort of teachers who thinks the taxpayer owes them a living for signing in once or twice a day and copying and pasting exercise pages from a workbook to a virtual folder without putting in any actual teaching hours or work themselves - appalling..

This is not what we experienced as parents. Teachers were ringing our kids to have chats, did zoom calls, asked for homework to be sent in. Did games for them to.do at home.

My sons school bought extra apps so they could do more stuff on their tablets and teachers could view it.

Now we cant continue this in Sept. A solution needs to be sorted but have no faith in Michael Martin. He is useless

HerrKuehn · 14-07-2020 08:20AM

Daisy 55 wrote: »

Principals and teachers are getting a lot of bad press. But we are just scared. Scared of getting it wrong. Scared to be the school at the centre of a major outbreak. We just want help. And not last minute help either. Proper guidelines. And not a cop out that says each school can make their own arrangements. Crèches got detailed guidelines, we want the same.[/

Exactly!

Very little has been expected of teachers over the last 4 months. Of the 6 months between March and September, you will have been in the class 2 weeks and 6 weeks "remote learning". The remote teaching in many cases consisted of sending on an email with a few worksheets. It was really on a best effort basis as well, so if you had no broadband or laptop, you pretty much didn't have to do anything. This whole situation has really shown up the education sector. I think teachers need to have a bit of perspective, you will be literally the last ones back to work properly.

average_runner · 14-07-2020 08:25AM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

And when exactly have teachers not been doing their job? If they fail to reopen in September then teachers and students will work online, exactly like they have been from March to May.

Rubbish statement, do better.

Working on line doesn't really work for younger kids.
Also not possible if both parents working from home.

average_runner · 14-07-2020 08:36AM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

And when exactly have teachers not been doing their job? If they fail to reopen in September then teachers and students will work online, exactly like they have been from March to May.

Rubbish statement, do better.

Not all families have access to wifi or can afford tablets. How are these kids catered for in the lockdown by the schools?

jrosen · 14-07-2020 09:19AM

...Ghost... wrote: »

While no work place is risk free and completely safe, there are minimum standards expected depending on the sector. We both agree on PPE, great. I mentioned unnecessary risk, naturally expanding the discussion thread.

However, you don’t make sense when suggesting that higher risk employees should be able to stay home even if the proper safety measures are put in place. You are entitled to your opinion i suppose, but I am of the opinion that anyone should be able to stay at home on full pay if their employer cannot provide a safe working environment. We can’t 100% guarantee safety, but to send staff into an environment where they are at a high risk of contracting a potentially fatal infection is idiotic at best. Doctors and Nurses were allowed to opt out of work if they, or a member of their household were immunodeficient/vulnerable and afaik, they were still paid (open to correction).

If we are to avoid unnecessary risk no one would leave their house other than for essential items. No hair apps, no nail apps, no dinners, lunch or coffee dates. But that is not life. There is risk and the risk to people with underlying health issues is far higher than those who dont. We need to protect those people and make allowances for them.

What an employer should not need to do is make allowances for their staffs family.
Ive heard mixed on medial staff with some being redeployed. So I can not say for sure. But the risk to a nurse or doctor working on the front line working with covid positive patients or working in a covid positive environment is not comparable to a teacher.

I accept their are people who are high risk and we need to look after them the most, but I stand over what I said. If you are fit and able to work you should have too.

Sammy2012 · 14-07-2020 09:28AM

I can only speak for myself but having spent 12 years in the classroom I have rarely been sick. Twice in that time. And once was last winter. But I am happy to go back to work at the end of August and wear a mask/face shield as necessary. I will bring my own sanitizer and try protect my own kids as much as possible. But it means that I will have to be weary about time spent with my parents. And I'm sure the vast majority of my colleagues feel the same.

However the government need to step up here. We are due to open 6 weeks from tomorrow and we need time to set up and make the necessary arrangements. Some teachers have said they have already been told they will not be allowed to wear masks. This is ridiculous and is why there needs to be general guidelines that all schools need to follow. Not left to individual schools to decide policy as let's face it, some are incapable of that.

Parents also need time to make arrangements for childcare if all children are not back fulltime. The attitude is being shown here as is now being seen with travel from the USA. Wait and see. That's not good enough. We as a country deserve better. Parents and teachers deserve better. I mean it's no wonder the way things are here when there's more thought put into opening pubs than schools!!!

Bananaleaf · 14-07-2020 10:15AM

JustAThought wrote: »

Many non permanent teacher posts filled by temporary teachers will find themselves not able to rent. Who would want the risk of aharing with a teacher who is in close contact with 30+ kids ( and by default their siblings, family and friends) per day and have that risk coming home to their house. With the threat of teachers also ‘working from home’ there are not many who would also bring an additional 8 hour heating bill on themselves in a houseshare for ‘working from home teachers’.

Some of those teachers were already finding it hard enough to rent as house sharers were only too aware of the deplorable conditions of some of their contracts. A colleague of mine was driving thr length of half the country each evening to stay with her parents because she could not get a place to rent
If she didnt have her parents she would have been sleeping in her car. I had never thought about what you have mentioned - this is going to make life twice as hard for our subs.

Sammy2012 wrote: »

I can only speak for myself but having spent 12 years in the classroom I have rarely been sick. Twice in that time. And once was last winter. But I am happy to go back to work at the end of August and wear a mask/face shield as necessary. I will bring my own sanitizer and try protect my own kids as much as possible. But it means that I will have to be weary about time spent with my parents. And I'm sure the vast majority of my colleagues feel the same.

However the government need to step up here. We are due to open 6 weeks from tomorrow and we need time to set up and make the necessary arrangements. Some teachers have said they have already been told they will not be allowed to wear masks. This is ridiculous and is why there needs to be general guidelines that all schools need to follow. !

I have said, more or less, the same as this a couple of times on this thread now.

Some people here seem to think that because us teachers mention that we need some kind of protective measures put in place, we are saying that we refuse to go back to work.

We are not refusing to go to work. We do not want to remote teach. We want to be back in the classroom. We know it didn't work. We are aware of the inequalities that exist in relation to resources, broadband etc. We want to be back in the classroom. Some of us have families and know how hard it is to WFH and child mind. We dont expect our employer to take our sick parents etc into consideration when working out our timetables. WE WANT TO BE BACK IN THE CLASSROOM!!!!!!

But what in Gods name is so heinous about asking the dept to protect us as best they can while we are there?

Folks want everyone to download the Covid app. It's the responsible thing to do. They want American tourists out of the country. It's the responsible thing to do. Don't go abroad in 2020, it's the responsible thing to do. You must wear a mask o public transport. It's the responsible thing to do.

Put PPE in schools. It is the responsible thing to do.

Charles Babbage · 14-07-2020 10:19AM

Los Angeles and San Diego schools to go online in the "Fall".
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/lausd-san-diego-school-reopening.html

HerrKuehn · 14-07-2020 10:22AM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Los Angeles and San Diego schools to go online in the "Fall".
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/13/us/lausd-san-diego-school-reopening.html

what relevance does that have to here?

Leftwaffe · 14-07-2020 10:22AM

average_runner wrote: »

Working on line doesn't really work for younger kids.
Also not possible if both parents working from home.

What your saying might be true but it also doesn't make what I have said untrue. If schools don't open, teachers will work from home. As they have been doing. Whether that works or not, or whether the logistics in the home place work or not, it will still happen. And teachers will continue to do their job. At no point in all this have they not done their job.

I find it hard to listen to people saying we are not doing our job during lockdown. For me personally, the effort I put into my work with daily live classes, recorded videos, adapted resources, consistent corrections and correspondence. All whilst minding a kid. But yeah, we're lazy, don't want to work, etc.

average_runner wrote: »

Not all families have access to wifi or can afford tablets. How are these kids catered for in the lockdown by the schools?

I agree that these kids are at a disadvantage. We tried to help those who had no computer access by providing them with a tablet free of charge. I'd say about 0.5% or less of students where I work had no internet, we tried to cater for these by posting out material to their houses and making phone calls to parents. I understand this is not proper instruction but it was the best we could do in this situation.

I'd say around 4 of my students in total were non compliant during lockdown. The rest have been fantastic. Although it's just not the same or as effective as regular instruction.

HerrKuehn · 14-07-2020 10:27AM

Redordeadqwwer wrote: »

I find it hard to listen to people saying we are not doing our job during lockdown. For me personally, the effort I put into my work with daily live classes, recorded videos, adapted resources, consistent corrections and correspondence. All whilst minding a kid. But yeah, we're lazy, don't want to work, etc.

This hasn't been the experience for most children. All the other parents I have spoken to have been getting the bits of work sent on, with very little effort put into it. Teaching younger children cannot be done remotely, that is simple fact. I think what we need to do, is next year if schools close for a couple of weeks due to an outbreak, is try and make the time up during the rest of the year. It probably won't be possible to make up the time in all cases. But there should be at least an effort, shorten the christmas holidays, easter etc.

Bananaleaf · 14-07-2020 10:36AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

This hasn't been the experience for most children. All the other parents I have spoken to have been getting the bits of work sent on, with very little effort put into it.

I'm not going to say that some teachers didn't take the p1ss. I personally dont know of any, but it would be foolish of me to say none did as I dont know every teacher in the country.

With respect to you, I highly doubt you have been speaking to the parents of most of the children in the irish education system.

HerrKuehn · 14-07-2020 10:42AM

Bananaleaf wrote: »

I'm not going to say that some teachers didn't take the p1ss. I personally dont know of any, but it would be foolish of me to say none did as I dont know every teacher in the country.

With respect to you, I highly doubt you have been speaking to the parents of most of the children in the irish education system.

I said all the other parents I have spoken to. I didn't say the parents of every other child in the educational system. There are too many barriers to remote learning, especially for younger children. I don't doubt it can work for motivated 5th and 6th years.

Leftwaffe · 14-07-2020 10:48AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

This hasn't been the experience for most children. All the other parents I have spoken to have been getting the bits of work sent on, with very little effort put into it. Teaching younger children cannot be done remotely, that is simple fact. I think what we need to do, is next year if schools close for a couple of weeks due to an outbreak, is try and make the time up during the rest of the year. It probably won't be possible to make up the time in all cases. But there should be at least an effort, shorten the christmas holidays, easter etc.

Look, the remote learning is just crap to be honest. I couldn't see how it worked at all for primary students. The lads I had were a good bunch and participated very well but thats anecdotal. It's not the solution going forward but it is what will probably happen imo. Doesn't seem to be any plans that suggest otherwise. I am merely saying at no point did I abandon my job and think I was in holidays. I put huge effort into it and a lot more time than a normal working day.

I have no problem going back at any time during the year. Shorten the holidays or scrap the summer holiday if needs be. We need to get kids back in school but it has to be safe for them.

Bananaleaf · 14-07-2020 10:59AM

HerrKuehn wrote: »

I said all the other parents I have spoken to. I didn't say the parents of every other child in the educational system. There are too many barriers to remote learning, especially for younger children. I don't doubt it can work for motivated 5th and 6th years.

Okay, fair enough. I read 'this hasn't been the experience for most children ' to be suggestive of all children in the country.

I agree there are barriers to remote learning. It doesnt work, especially for younger children.

What's going to be worse than not reopening in Sep is if we have to open up with no PPE and then close again suddenly in a month.

When people point the finger at 'lazy teachers who just don't want to go back to work' they are playing right into the hands of the government. So long as you are looking at us, the heat is off them. I'm not saying that lazy teachers don't exist (just as you have lazy builders, lazy solicitors, lazy nurses, lazy zoo keepers....) but that is a different argument. Those of us who do our job don't like lazy teachers either- I mean, who do you think ends up picking up their slack?? Lazy teachers online are most likely lazy teachers in the classroom too, so throwing them back into the classroom in August isnt going to cure them of their plight!

I know you didn't mention lazy, I'm just adding that point to this post as it is seems to be a huge issue for some (thinly veiled jealousy over the holidays I'd suspect)

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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