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Completely Put Off Having Children

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    Fourier wrote: »
    It's not just that there are several things better, it's that in most studies that assess the globe from several perspectives like the HDI from the UN and several others now is better overall.

    In 1990 there were similar environmental issues that suggested a poor outlook, see all the apocalyptic fiction inspired by the ozone hole. Is there anything to suggest (objectively) that the outlook was better in 1990?

    As far as I can see there isn't. This isn't to say the 90s were terrible.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_of_the_Atomic_Scientists

    these guys do a lot of the outlook stuff. By 1990 CFGs had been banned across the world for 10 years and the ozone layer was in repair. Global warming wasn't fully understood.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,806 ✭✭✭✭kowloon


    wildwillow wrote: »
    Not all children grow up and leave to have their own lives. Some have serious medical or special needs and your entire life changes to care from them. I went through the heartache of losing a child to cancer.

    ****, that's awful, sorry you had to go through that. :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,908 ✭✭✭facehugger99


    My kids inspire me to be the person they think I am.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    cgcsb wrote: »
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_of_the_Atomic_Scientists

    these guys do a lot of the outlook stuff. By 1990 CFGs had been banned across the world for 10 years and the ozone layer was in repair. Global warming wasn't fully understood.
    Ozone levels only stabilised in the mid-90s, the relevant products had only been banned in 1989 and it wasn't known if things would stabilise.

    Anyway that still doesn't show the 90s were "better" in any clear objective sense. The doomsday clock is not only widely criticised but only surveys a narrow set of issues.

    Even the Wikipedia article mentions clear problems with it. Like how the clock was closer to midnight in 2007 when nothing major was going on than it was during the Cuban missile crisis when the world was on the verge of nuclear war.

    I'm not saying things are perfect now, but looking at a range of studies I don't see this being some clear cut "now is worse" given things like the HDI.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,813 ✭✭✭joe40


    Not true.
    I know a few that straight up say they regret it.
    It's actually refreshing to hear.

    The thing is as well when people have kids they usually get quite attached to them and won't say they regret it.

    That doesn't mean they would not be happy without kids, if the kids never existed.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Foweva Awone


    Actually, now that I think about it, my mental health is another very valid reason why I'll probably have no more children.

    After my first child I had .... well put it this way, to call what I had "post-natal depression" would be like calling a brain hemorrhage a mild headache. It was horrific. Odds of me surviving a second bout are low.

    Besides which, I'm on so much heavy-duty medication as a result that the poor child would probably come out with 3 heads. :o

    Ahh the joys of motherhood .... :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    I would hate to be old, gray and lonely without any children to call my own. The only people in this world who truly care about you are your family. Friends come and go in life.

    Not at all true in my personal experience and in my observation of others.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    I think its interesting that many women don't have kids until their 30s now, anyone having a first child before 25 would be seen as quite young for it. Its not necessarily a bad thing, but in many cases I've no doubt people would be glad to have their kids in their 20s when energy levels are a bit higher.
    BTW I'm not saying having kids is for everyone, but it will be difficult to find something else as meaningful to do in life as raise your own.
    That's not meant to be harsh, its just a tough reality.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    antgal23 wrote: »
    "absolute squalor and couldn't reconcile bringing a child into it. "

    I think with this mindset you have pre - natal depression, best buy a hamster

    Yes it's a shame, people don't realise that this is the best time to live historically.
    The media are too doom and gloom and rely on clickbait articles of bad news that paints an unrealistic picture of the world.

    OP please check out these books ...

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enlightenment-Now-Science-Humanism-Progress/dp/0141979097/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1J3MVVYG78ZFI&dchild=1&keywords=enlightenment+now&qid=1590593394&sprefix=enlight%2Caps%2C177&sr=8-1
    My new favourite book of all time -- Bill Gates

    Exhilarating, magnificent, uplifting, Economist

    This is the biggest story of our time. It's about the many ways in which the world is improving, and why we don't believe it -- Fraser Nelson, Spectator

    Pinker is right. Not just a bit right, but completely, utterly, incontrovertibly right ... for most people, life is better, even if they don't realise it -- Dominic Sandbrook, Daily Mail

    Awesome. The confidence with which Pinker tears through the issues that cause such deep anxiety today is compelling -- William Davies, Guardian

    A characteristically fluent, decisive and data-rich demonstration of why, given the chance to live at any point in human history, only a stone-cold idiot would choose any time other than the present -- Sam Leith, Spectator

    A new, optimistic view of the world ... Things are not as bad as your Facebook news feed makes them seem ... a cheerful, contrarian tract for dark times -- Niall Ferguson, Sunday Times

    A goldmine of startling graphs and killer facts about the way we live now. Everyone should read this book and, just for once, be enthralled by what humankind has achieved -- Iain Macwhirter, Herald

    Brimming with surprising data and entertaining anecdotes ... a genuinely enlightening book -- Jan-Werner Müller, Financial Times

    Today we are living healthier, wealthier lives - and it's thanks to the values of the Enlightenment ... a passionate book in praise of Enlightenment values -- David Aaronovitch, The Times
    From the Back Cover
    Is modernity really failing? Or have we failed to appreciate progress and the ideals that make it possible? If you follow the headlines, the world in the 21st century appears to be sinking into chaos, hatred, and irrationality. Yet Steven Pinker shows that this is an illusion - a symptom of historical amnesia and statistical fallacies. If you follow the trendlines rather than the headlines, you discover that our lives have become longer, healthier, safer, happier, more peaceful, more stimulating and more prosperous - not just in the West, but worldwide. Such progress is no accident: it's the gift of a coherent and inspiring value system that many of us embrace without even realizing it. These are the values of the Enlightenment: of reason, science, humanism and progress. The challenges we face today are formidable, including inequality, climate change, Artificial Intelligence and nuclear weapons. But the way to deal with them is not to sink into despair or try to lurch back to a mythical idyllic past; it's to treat them as problems we can solve, as we have solved other problems in the past. In making the case for an Enlightenment newly recharged for the 21st century, Pinker shows how we can use our faculties of reason and sympathy to solve the problems that inevitably come with being products of evolution in an indifferent universe. We will never have a perfect world, but - defying the chorus of fatalism and reaction - we can continue to make it a better one.



    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Better-Angels-Our-Nature-Violence/dp/0141034645/ref=sr_1_1?crid=VZAPROT11X2N&dchild=1&keywords=better+angels+of+our+nature+pinker&qid=1590593411&sprefix=better+ang%2Caps%2C167&sr=8-1
    Shortlisted for the Samuel Johnson Prize 2012

    Wasn't the twentieth century the most violent in history? In his extraordinary, epic book Steven Pinker shows us that this is wrong, telling the story of humanity in a completely new and unfamiliar way. From why cities make us safer to how books bring about peace, Pinker weaves together history, philosophy and science to examine why we are less likely to die at another's hand than ever before, how it happened and what it tells us about our very natures.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,809 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    I have 2 boys and I love them, it's great but can be hard at times, but one thing I will say - everyone I know that doesn't have kids has great lives! :D

    They have lots of holidays,money and freedom, they do what they want to do when they want to do it ...


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  • Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think it would be more interesting to ask that in 20 or 30 years. I think more people nowadays feel like they can choose not to have children whereas 50+ years ago it really wasn't an option. I know a few women who had kids because it was the 'done thing', regularly telling their (now adult) children that they never wa ted them throughout their childhood. Any childfree couples I know in their 60's and above couldn't conceive or had multiple losses in pregnancy. I also feel that bringing lawful termination into Ireland will hopefully reduce people becoming parents when they don't want to be.

    Well, yeah, that's kind of what I'm getting at, but in 30 years time there will be another generation of it, and it will probably just be tragic really..

    A load of 70 year olds living for themselves..how grim..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,308 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez


    You'd wonder how many people who find themselves in their 70s childless are happy they didn't have kids..

    A load of 70 year olds living for themselves..how grim..

    This seems to be a big hang-up for you isn't it?

    You got laboured with kids and have no freedom, so you try to bring down those you see around you who don't and do. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    Yes it's a shame, people don't realise that this is the best time to live historically.
    The media are too doom and gloom and rely on clickbait articles of bad news that paints an unrealistic picture of the world.
    There's also "Factfulness" by Hans & Ola Rosling and Anna Rosling Rönnlund. Very good book with a sober analysis of the data.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭notsoyoungwan


    Well, yeah, that's kind of what I'm getting at, but in 30 years time there will be another generation of it, and it will probably just be tragic really..

    A load of 70 year olds living for themselves..how grim..

    What’s grim about living for oneself?

    Far better to do that than to burden someone with being “everything I live for” and “all I have in life”, surely? That can be an awful burden to put on children and young adults.


  • Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mrcheez wrote: »
    This seems to be a big hang-up for you isn't it?

    You got laboured with kids and have no freedom, so you try to bring down those you see around you who don't and do. :rolleyes:

    Haha..no actually..
    I am childless and as free as a locked down bird..
    Loads of money..can go on holiday once a month if I want..

    I'm not trying to bring anyone down.. really..
    But I do think that this mentality is kind of a product of living in this whole consumer self centered culture we are living in..
    I don't think it's natural or beneficial for anyone..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,308 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez


    But I do think that this mentality is kind of a product of living in this whole consumer self centered culture we are living in..

    I think it's more a product of people not feeling they have to conform to society norms any more and they are free to do what they want.

    Many people are happy to dote on their nieces/nephews or whatever, rather than feel they need to breed themselves, plus the freedom of being able to live your life how you want to is something people admire nowadays rather than scorn as they would have in the past.


  • Posts: 7,714 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mrcheez wrote: »
    I think it's more a product of people not feeling they have to conform to society norms any more and they are free to do what they want.

    We'll see..It will take a couple of generations probably to become apparent..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 904 ✭✭✭Blaze420


    c.p.w.g.w wrote: »
    It's the whole risk of having a special needs child...i think too many folks are afraid to be honest about it...if you have a child who is severely disabled your life is pretty much over...If they are able to live a normal length life, you spend your last years stressing and worrying who takes care of them when i'm gone...in Iceland they seem to have refreshing honesty about this

    I think you have a point there, no matter how unpalatable it may seem to some. I know people with kids with really severe special needs and they always seem to go overboard in making a point of how it doesn’t matter and how much they love them etc - but you know from the look on their face that deep down there is some regret or bitterness hiding behind the facade. It can’t be easy and it’s not what anybody wants when they have a kid, no matter how much sugar coating is put on it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    Hi OP. I'm female, in a LTR, don't want children. I really dislike the idea of pregnancy and childbirth and would be terrified of having a serious complication of labour.

    I also have spent a lot of time thinking about child rearing and while it seems like a nice idea in an abstract sense as soon as I consider the daily reality eg night feeds, changing nappies, watching children's television, school runs, wiping dirty faces etc it honestly makes me feel quite depressed.
    I also am highly independent and I think I would resent the loss of independence and freedom that necessarily comes with having kids. I really enjoy my job (although I decided I didn't want kids well before I had decided on my career). Again I think I would resent being stuck at home on mat leave while my partner could go out to work. I would find it very isolating I think.

    As cpwgw says of course there's also the risk of the child having a serious disability.

    Not a reason but a beneficial side effect of not having kids is not contributing to overpopulation and climate change.

    I don't have anything against kids but there are plenty of people who do want to have them who I think would make great parents. I think it's better to leave having kids to those that really want them rather than being ambivalent but doing it because that's just what everyone else does.

    I would like to be a mentor/positive role model to my friends/siblings kids when that time comes. Just happy not to have my own.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    lozenges wrote: »
    Hi OP. I'm female, in a LTR, don't want children. I really dislike the idea of pregnancy and childbirth and would be terrified of having a serious complication of labour.
    Excellent point. I'm surprised it took so long for somebody to bring this up, especially given the quality of the maternity services in Ireland. While it appears to me anecdotally to be slightly better than general healthcare in Ireland, I have heard so many horror stories from friends who have given birth and I would not be confident that it can be relied upon with such a life and death situation. Working in disability services and with a lot of friends who have had children, I have heard every horror story and seen the repercussions of everything from overworked midwives making mistakes to out and out refusal to respect mothers' wishes in relation to pain medication etc. I know of hundreds of cases of negligence from just my local hospitals and I would imagine that this situation is mirrored across the country. It seems to be a real gamble giving birth when you cannot rely on the health system.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,779 ✭✭✭✭rob316


    s1ippy wrote: »
    Excellent point. I'm surprised it took so long for somebody to bring this up, especially given the quality of the maternity services in Ireland. While it appears to me anecdotally to be slightly better than general healthcare in Ireland, I have heard so many horror stories from friends who have given birth and I would not be confident that it can be relied upon with such a life and death situation. Working in disability services and with a lot of friends who have had children, I have heard every horror story and seen the repercussions of everything from overworked midwives making mistakes to out and out refusal to respect mothers' wishes in relation to pain medication etc. I know of hundreds of cases of negligence from just my local hospitals and I would imagine that this situation is mirrored across the country. It seems to be a real gamble giving birth when you cannot rely on the health system.

    You really concentrate on the negatives, if you don't want children don't have them, don't expect other posters to influence your decision. The maternity services here are absolutely fine I've never heard different.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 63 ✭✭Revit Man


    I've a child, only a few months old.

    I was 100% certain I wanted children before baby arrived. To be honest, now I'm not so sure it was a good idea. I do know that a lot of that is the tiredness and stress talking (Covid-19 babies with no family or friends or any outlets at all, working from home, colicky baby...) and it will pass (it already is passing), to be replaced by other stresses I'm sure.

    But so far it's 85% difficult/boring (bad combination), 15% "oh wow, this is so nice".
    Ask me again in a few years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb



    A load of 70 year olds living for themselves..how grim..

    As opposed to living to be a burden on their children? In the future most people will probably opt to euthanise themselves at 80 or 90 or whatever the age of feebleness is then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,739 ✭✭✭storker


    Revit Man wrote: »
    I've a child, only a few months old.

    I was 100% certain I wanted children before baby arrived. To be honest, now I'm not so sure it was a good idea. I do know that a lot of that is the tiredness and stress talking (Covid-19 babies with no family or friends or any outlets at all, working from home, colicky baby...) and it will pass (it already is passing), to be replaced by other stresses I'm sure.

    But so far it's 85% difficult/boring (bad combination), 15% "oh wow, this is so nice".
    Ask me again in a few years.

    It gets better. And afterwards when you look back on the difficult times, you may even realise they didn't really last that long. It just doesn't seem like that when it's happening and you're in the middle of it. That was my experience anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    s1ippy wrote: »
    Excellent point. I'm surprised it took so long for somebody to bring this up, especially given the quality of the maternity services in Ireland. While it appears to me anecdotally to be slightly better than general healthcare in Ireland, I have heard so many horror stories from friends who have given birth and I would not be confident that it can be relied upon with such a life and death situation. Working in disability services and with a lot of friends who have had children, I have heard every horror story and seen the repercussions of everything from overworked midwives making mistakes to out and out refusal to respect mothers' wishes in relation to pain medication etc. I know of hundreds of cases of negligence from just my local hospitals and I would imagine that this situation is mirrored across the country. It seems to be a real gamble giving birth when you cannot rely on the health system.

    To be honest this isn't it. Maternity services in Ireland are actually excellent for the most part. It's more that I work in healthcare and see complications when they do happen. It's biased of course because I don't see all the women who are absolutely fine, but still.

    Also, while some complications are avoidable, many are not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    s1ippy wrote: »
    Excellent point. I'm surprised it took so long for somebody to bring this up, especially given the quality of the maternity services in Ireland. While it appears to me anecdotally to be slightly better than general healthcare in Ireland, I have heard so many horror stories from friends who have given birth and I would not be confident that it can be relied upon with such a life and death situation. Working in disability services and with a lot of friends who have had children, I have heard every horror story and seen the repercussions of everything from overworked midwives making mistakes to out and out refusal to respect mothers' wishes in relation to pain medication etc. I know of hundreds of cases of negligence from just my local hospitals and I would imagine that this situation is mirrored across the country. It seems to be a real gamble giving birth when you cannot rely on the health system.

    Its no different from the rest of the health care system, take from that what you will.

    Look, you clearly don't want children and there is nothing wrong with that. You asked for people to give their experience, most parents do acknowledge the hard parts of raising a person but it's well worth the payoff. Lots of things we do will be challenging, difficult and we may question our sanity for doing them but when you get through the early years it's much easier.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,308 ✭✭✭✭mrcheez


    rob316 wrote: »
    You really concentrate on the negatives, if you don't want children don't have them, don't expect other posters to influence your decision.

    I think the real negatives are the "awww poor them" view some have for those that choose to remain childless as illustrated by posts like...
    rob316 wrote: »
    I'd find life very empty without my kid and look forward to having another.
    rob316 wrote: »
    Your children are your legacy, if all goes to plan its what you leave behind.
    I would hate to be old, gray and lonely without any children to call my own. The only people in this world who truly care about you are your family. Friends come and go in life.
    Having kids is the meaning of life. Before them, nothing really mattered. It’s tough, but definitely worth it.
    I think deciding not to have children is one of the most selfless acts. A child takes over your world and if you can't give that you shouldn't have one.


    You can be selfless and give to the world without necessarily having to produce your own sprogs :pac:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,980 ✭✭✭s1ippy


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Its no different from the rest of the health care system, take from that what you will.

    Look, you clearly don't want children and there is nothing wrong with that. You asked for people to give their experience, most parents do acknowledge the hard parts of raising a person but it's well worth the payoff. Lots of things we do will be challenging, difficult and we may question our sanity for doing them but when you get through the early years it's much easier.
    No need for the salty response, I take your points. It's absolutely not the case that I clearly don't want children. I just thought it would be worthwhile to examine all sides, and it really has been that imo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭lozenges


    I had my first in my mid 20s . Hated it. It literally stopped me from doing the things I loved. I was always stuck inside. Minding a child if not working.

    Now in my 40s I have had another. He is 5 and is my true joy in this world. I think to enjoy parenthood properly, you must have a few years under your belt and be happy to let all those trivial things you enjoyed as a younger person go.

    I would hate to be old, gray and lonely without any children to call my own. The only people in this world who truly care about you are your family. Friends come and go in life.

    Wouldn't agree with this at all. As sad as it is there are older people in nursing homes and hospitals whose children don't visit them. Sometimes there are reasons for that, sometimes not. But having kids is no guarantee of happiness in your old age.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Revit Man wrote: »
    I've a child, only a few months old.

    I was 100% certain I wanted children before baby arrived. To be honest, now I'm not so sure it was a good idea. I do know that a lot of that is the tiredness and stress talking (Covid-19 babies with no family or friends or any outlets at all, working from home, colicky baby...) and it will pass (it already is passing), to be replaced by other stresses I'm sure.

    But so far it's 85% difficult/boring (bad combination), 15% "oh wow, this is so nice".
    Ask me again in a few years.

    My daughter was born a couple of weeks before people decided to start slamming aeroplanes into buildings

    Now think what it was like holding a baby watching that unfolding and thinking what the fcuk kind of world have I brought her into

    Genuine fear of what was going to happen next

    But we march on

    You will look back and smile


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