Completely Put Off Having Children

pwurple

Deleted User wrote: »

Isn't the whole "having kids is bad for the environment" thing a myth though?.. based on dubious data I think..

How can it be a myth? It's simple common sense. In 1975 there were 4 billion humans. Today there are 8 billion. All driving around, eating food, drinking water, producing waste, using plastics, living in concrete homes, consuming resources.

Those extra 4 billion people are all this last generation's children. Us basically. I'm one of 5 siblings, my parents are from huge families. I have nearly 200 first cousins. My husband is also one of 5 and his parents are each from families with more than 12 siblings each. Hundreds of first cousins there too.

In contrast, I have 2 children, and they have 5 first cousins, total. So, yes, there's a reduction there.


However, I don't account for the rest of the planet. I have friends who have 5 or 6 children in this generation too. And in less developed countries there are enormous families still.

Thelonious Monk

Regardless of whether our population grows or not, we need to drop consumption levels of pretty much everything in rich countries especially, or we're screwed, if it's not too late already. It's rich countries like ireland that fuel the economies of pointless unnecessary rubbish producers like China.

Feisar

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Regardless of whether our population grows or not, we need to drop consumption levels of pretty much everything in rich countries especially, or we're screwed, if it's not too late already. It's rich countries like ireland that fuel the economies of pointless unnecessary rubbish producers like China.

I thought Covid19 had solved the climate issue? I certainly haven't heard anything about the environment since the Covid pandemic came to light.

Sky King

Feisar wrote: »

I thought Covid19 had solved the climate issue?

Hopefully it solves the population issue as well. Nature is healing. We are the virus.

Sky King

Sky King wrote: »

Hopefully it solves the population issue as well. Nature is healing. We are the virus.

I'm starting to think this is a really idiotic viewpoint..

cgcsb

Feisar wrote: »

I thought Covid19 had solved the climate issue? I certainly haven't heard anything about the environment since the Covid pandemic came to light.

You thought that ey? have you stopped eating since? given that the virus has only killed a tiny proportion of the population, most of whom were old and already procreated anyway plus we're likely to have a baby boom as an indirect result of lockdown, it seems the virus has made things worse in the long term. the benefits of the temporary drop in carbon emissions due to restrictions on transport wont last long.

RubyK

We are married 17 years, together 24 yrs. The conversation of having children was had a few times before we got married, and we both weren't quite sure it was what we wanted. We got married, and decided to wait a few years, and just enjoy our life as it was. Around 5-6 years after we married we said we would try and see what happened. It never happened for us. But it's ok, and we both feel it just wasn't meant to be. We have a nice life, we are happy. We don't live wishing for what we don't have, and we don't worry about getting older just the two of us (and the dogs). We are just grateful for what we have, a nice life together

Feisar

cgcsb wrote: »

You thought that ey? have you stopped eating since? given that the virus has only killed a tiny proportion of the population, most of whom were old and already procreated anyway plus we're likely to have a baby boom as an indirect result of lockdown, it seems the virus has made things worse in the long term. the benefits of the temporary drop in carbon emissions due to restrictions on transport wont last long.

No I didn't think that, it was a comment about the power of the media to drive a particular issue in our minds.

andekwarhola

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Do young couples now sit down and "decide" to have their first baby

I know we didn't

Ww sat down and decided. We didn't start a circular discussion on a message board about it, mind you. I guess we're old fashioned.

Fourier

pwurple wrote: »

However, I don't account for the rest of the planet. I have friends who have 5 or 6 children in this generation too. And in less developed countries there are enormous families still.

The global average is 2.5 per woman and dropping. We have either hit peak child already or are close to. The global population will halt around 11 billion which according to most models is well within what can be provided for.

Climate change will not be solved by lowering the population (as is obvious if one reads any studies on the subject), we have to change the energy infrastructure. I see no real reason to expect this won't be done and even the most unlikely negative scenarios from climate change are not apocalyptic.

Deleted User wrote: »

Isn't the whole "having kids is bad for the environment" thing a myth though?.. based on dubious data I think..

Yeah there's a badly misreported paper that gives the CO2 emission for children at 58 tons per year. Even a few seconds thought should reveal how little sense this makes. How can the average EU person output ~9 tons per year with every child hitting 60 tons? It would require anybody over 12 to be an almost non-physical ghost who doesn't need to eat, drive etc. Unfortunately this paper has now become a meme along with the "60% of animal populations wiped out" one.

Since Idiocracy has come up, the point isn't a great one. It's a comedy movie. Average intelligence is not declining.

flasher0030

flasher0030 wrote: »

You sound very insecure. You can choose to continue a life of socialising, holiday when you want, sleep-ins till 11am at the weekends, watch netflix all day if you want. But in my opinion, you'll regret not having kids if you are in a position to do so. Of course it helps if the proper factors are in place i.e. decent partner, decent job and decent accommodation.

I enjoyed the wild life up until my early '30s. That's when herself advised that it was time to get a move on. I'll be honest, the thought of having to give up my 5ams staggering in the door devastated me. Anyway we had 2 kids - boy and girl. It's been unbelievable. Simple things at the beginning. I love music so to make a novelty of the getting up several times during the night, I had my own playlist set out for different nights. Anyway kids are more grown up now - 9 and 6 - and it's absolutely amazing. Helping them develop through school, playing sport with them, climbing mountains, reading with them, jumping on them, them jumping on you. The list goes on and on. And the social life does gradually come back - albeit in a more restrictive way. But, God, do I appreciate more the few beers when they do arrive.

Anyway, don't not have kids out of fear. Almost everybody has that. But it turns out to be one big adventure - a rollercoaster adventure.

What part of that makes me sound "very insecure"? I find that so funny and the opposite to reality! You like it I think of it as my idea of hell compared to my life now. Does that irritate you maybe as there is some reason you feel the need to call me insecure. Different strokes and all that.

flasher0030

flasher0030 wrote: »

You sound very insecure. You can choose to continue a life of socialising, holiday when you want, sleep-ins till 11am at the weekends, watch netflix all day if you want. But in my opinion, you'll regret not having kids if you are in a position to do so. Of course it helps if the proper factors are in place i.e. decent partner, decent job and decent accommodation.

I enjoyed the wild life up until my early '30s. That's when herself advised that it was time to get a move on. I'll be honest, the thought of having to give up my 5ams staggering in the door devastated me. Anyway we had 2 kids - boy and girl. It's been unbelievable. Simple things at the beginning. I love music so to make a novelty of the getting up several times during the night, I had my own playlist set out for different nights. Anyway kids are more grown up now - 9 and 6 - and it's absolutely amazing. Helping them develop through school, playing sport with them, climbing mountains, reading with them, jumping on them, them jumping on you. The list goes on and on. And the social life does gradually come back - albeit in a more restrictive way. But, God, do I appreciate more the few beers when they do arrive.

Anyway, don't not have kids out of fear. Almost everybody has that. But it turns out to be one big adventure - a rollercoaster adventure.

You do know you can live a full life without staying out partying till 5am or staying in bed all day?

nullzero

If the OP can't think of one good reason to have children then they're better off not having any.

We already have enough disinterested parents in the world. Some people shouldn't be parents, however with that said those people really don't have any grounds for criticising people who are parents and are content with having children.

Society has always been in some form of disrepair, there has never been a "good" time to bring children into the world nor an ideal setting for them to grow up in.

The one part of the OP I found particularly strange was this; "On the bright side, I know at least two children alive now who seem to be doing mostly ok."
It just seems like a peculiar statement.

nullzero

EmmetSpiceland wrote: »

Speaking as a parent, one of the biggest “upsides” to this lockdown is that I’m dragged along to “play dates” where I have to engage with the, overly, competitive mother/fathers or with the annoying eunuchs.

Kids are a lot of work at the best of times, these people don’t make it any easier.

You're attending play dates during lockdown?

DopeTech

Nobody can force anyone to have kids, it's up to yourselves at the end of the day. It's not really anybody else's business either.

Do whatever makes ye happy.

EmmetSpiceland

nullzero wrote: »

You're attending play dates during lockdown?

Apologies, I left out a key word, “not”, there. I’ll amend it accordingly. Thanks.

Although, I should point out that we were plagued with invites during the first week and a half of “Lockdown” and have gotten 2 since last Friday.

I think a lot of parents are finding having to spend, actual, time with their offspring quite tough.

Foweva Awone

I've only one child, and his dad and I broke up when he was just 1. Because of that, I doubt I'll have any more children. While his dad is a great father and we get on grand with the co-parenting stuff most of the time, I hate the fact that we're stuck in each other's lives forever. It's very difficult never being able to fully leave your ex in the past - again, nothing personal towards the guy.

The thoughts of having to do that with another man as well in the future puts me off ever having another child. Can you imagine trying to negotiate access and handover etc with more than two other parents and multiple children. :eek:

Sunny Disposition

It's funny, on a purely logical basis it is impossible to explain to someone why having a child is great. People who don't have one just need to accept that it is great, despite no sleep, finance, leaky nappies etc. Something changes in you after your first one arrives, you operate on pure love for the baby and there is no question of not putting up with all the difficult things. I would advise anyone in a stable relationship to have children, no matter what else you're doing it almost certainly won't be as meaningful, harsh as that might sound.

This is it

Foweva Awone wrote: »

I've only one child, and his dad and I broke up when he was just 1. Because of that, I doubt I'll have any more children. While his dad is a great father and we get on grand with the co-parenting stuff most of the time, I hate the fact that we're stuck in each other's lives forever. It's very difficult never being able to fully leave your ex in the past - again, nothing personal towards the guy.

The thoughts of having to do that with another man as well in the future puts me off ever having another child. Can you imagine trying to negotiate access and handover etc with more than two other parents and multiple children. :eek:

I'm in a similar position. My stance after the breakup was that I was done with kids. I couldn't go through all that again, fighting for access, and like you, never being able to leave your ex in the past.

Thinking on it after some time I decided if the right person came along and they also wanted kids, it would at least be on the table. Obviously lots of things have to be considered but not having kids because I'm afraid of another breakup/fight for access is not a good way to think IMO. I'm not saying throw caution to the wind, but never say never for me.

Sunny Disposition

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It's funny, on a purely logical basis it is impossible to explain to someone why having a child is great. People who don't have one just need to accept that it is great, despite no sleep, finance, leaky nappies etc. Something changes in you after your first one arrives, you operate on pure love for the baby and there is no question of not putting up with all the difficult things. I would advise anyone in a stable relationship to have children, no matter what else you're doing it almost certainly won't be as meaningful, harsh as that might sound.

You are assigning meaning to it to help accommodate all the negatives perhaps?

eviltwin

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It's funny, on a purely logical basis it is impossible to explain to someone why having a child is great. People who don't have one just need to accept that it is great, despite no sleep, finance, leaky nappies etc. Something changes in you after your first one arrives, you operate on pure love for the baby and there is no question of not putting up with all the difficult things. I would advise anyone in a stable relationship to have children, no matter what else you're doing it almost certainly won't be as meanful, harsh as that might sound.

Because that stage of your child's life doesn't last all that long in the great scheme of things.

And why do any of us take on things that are hard, because the pay off is worth it.

cgcsb

nullzero wrote: »

Society has always been in some form of disrepair, there has never been a "good" time to bring children into the world nor an ideal setting for them to grow up in.

Not strictly true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock#Timeline

about 1990-1991 was an ideal time to have a child, the future outlook across the whole world was extremely positive at that point.

If you asked people aged 18 what they thought the future would be like every year of the past hundred years you would mostly get optimistic answers related to improving technology, increased convenience and increasing consumption up to those born around 1990. The millenials and gen Zs dread the future.

Those born in the western world after that point have lived through the global financial crisis, decimation of the natural world, increased wealth hording by a small number of billionaires (I hear that the miserly amazon chap is set to become the world's first 'trillionaire'<- a phrase not in the dictionary yet), the middle class majority can no longer afford to house themselves and it takes 2 incomes to raise one child and now we have the corona recession.

so yes there's never been a perfect time to have a child but 1990 was pretty darn good and right now is abysmal.

joe40

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It's funny, on a purely logical basis it is impossible to explain to someone why having a child is great. People who don't have one just need to accept that it is great, despite no sleep, finance, leaky nappies etc. Something changes in you after your first one arrives, you operate on pure love for the baby and there is no question of not putting up with all the difficult things. I would advise anyone in a stable relationship to have children, no matter what else you're doing it almost certainly won't be as meaningful, harsh as that might sound.

Oh God no, having children is great but only people who want kids should have kids.
If it is not for you don't do it. It may cause strain in later years if one partner has regrets or feels cheated but having kids is a massive responsibility not to be taken lightly.

Fourier

cgcsb wrote: »

so yes there's never been a perfect time to have a child but 1990 was pretty darn good and right now is abysmal.

What study supports this? By several other metrics the world is far better now than in 1990 (violent crime, health). Is there anything that is reasonably objective and comes to the conclusion that 1990 was better overall?

It's not like we're back in the Middle Ages.

Sunny Disposition

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

It's funny, on a purely logical basis it is impossible to explain to someone why having a child is great. People who don't have one just need to accept that it is great, despite no sleep, finance, leaky nappies etc. Something changes in you after your first one arrives, you operate on pure love for the baby and there is no question of not putting up with all the difficult things. I would advise anyone in a stable relationship to have children, no matter what else you're doing it almost certainly won't be as meaningful, harsh as that might sound.

And people who do need to accept that is great not having them too.
And maybe try to not be so patronizing, there's plenty of meaningful things in life

You'd wonder how many people who find themselves in their 70s childless are happy they didn't have kids..

cgcsb

Fourier wrote: »

What study supports this? By several other metrics the world is far better now than in 1990 (violent crime, health). Is there anything that is reasonably objective and comes to the conclusion that 1990 was better overall?

It's not like we're back in the Middle Ages.

No doubt there are several things that are better now than in 1990...at least on a local scale if not on a global one. But crucially the outlook from 1990 forward great compared to the outlook from 2020 forward which is cack.

Fourier

cgcsb wrote: »

No doubt there are several things that are better now than in 1990...at least on a local scale if not on a global one. But crucially the outlook from 1990 forward great compared to the outlook from 2020 forward which is cack.

It's not just that there are several things better, it's that in most studies that assess the globe from several perspectives like the HDI from the UN and several others now is better overall.

In 1990 there were similar environmental issues that suggested a poor outlook, see all the apocalyptic fiction inspired by the ozone hole. Is there anything to suggest (objectively) that the outlook was better in 1990?

As far as I can see there isn't. This isn't to say the 90s were terrible.

jam_mac_jam

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Also nobody with kids is ever going to say they regret having kids.

Not true.
I know a few that straight up say they regret it.
It's actually refreshing to hear.

wildwillow

Not all children grow up and leave to have their own lives. Some have serious medical or special needs and your entire life changes to care from them. I went through the heartache of losing a child to cancer.
I still miss him after thirty years but if I could have forseen the future I would have remained childless and spared him the pain of the cancer treatment.

On the other hand we had four idyllic years before cancer and no one can take the happy memories.

Two of my friends have children with special needs, and serious medical issues. Both are beautiul young adults and finished main stream education, but neither will be capable of independent living. In both cases the father abandoned the family soon after the births and are non supportive.

We all hope the future will be well but need to consider all aspects.

Good luck with whatever decision you make, parenthood is a life sentence.