Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - Read OP for Mod Warnings

18-05-2020 03:15PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Could be or it could be people using Reddit as a source.

In fairness, early data, especially from Italy, did indicate up to 50% of patients admitted to ICU were dying. As hospitals have learned however the way patients have been treated has been greatly improved. No one is talking of ventilators anymore, and that's because it has been identified that only in certain clinical presentations or as a last resort is ventilation an appropriate treatment. One of the main ways this was identified was through the shortage of ventilators in northern Italy, where certain patients were put on oxygen as they waited for vents to become available, but this cohort were sometimes found to have better outcomes then those already on ventillation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/how-is-this-possible-researchers-grapple-with-covid-19s-mysterious-mechanism

Tokyo · 18-05-2020 03:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What evidence have you provided? You seem quite agitated? Maybe I could recommend some quetiapine?

Mod: Quit it with the smartarsery. Take 24 hours away from the thread.

the kelt · 18-05-2020 03:25PM

setanta1984 wrote: »

Huh? All most people want is a reasonable time frame for the current plan.

I have issues with the ordering of items in certain phases, but the real problem is we are taking 3 months to execute our plan, when the rest of Europe have already eased things we are waiting until July and August for.
I think most people who want easing agree that our plan should be shorter and with some phases rolled into another. In line with the rest of Europe.

I still haven't seen a reasonable explanation why we are the only ones who need to drag it out to August when the rest of Europe are already at that stage now or by early June. Why are we different?

And saying "they locked down before us" is all well and good, but at the most anywhere was ahead was 2 to 3 weeks, it does not explain why our reopening plan is 2-3 months longer.

This thread seems to have veered more into the realm of whether the restrictions should have been imposed in the first place (maybe that could be it's own thread), this is a pointless argument as what's done is done, and is irrelevant now - all that matters now is how we get back out of it.

Couldnt agree more,

Colibri · 18-05-2020 03:26PM

Just walked past a playground that Cork council taped up around late March. The tape has been torn down and kids playing in it. They're being watched of course but it's good to see.

Fcxking delighted. Of all the places that present risk, outdoors is not one of them.

tobefrank321 · 18-05-2020 03:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness, early data, especially from Italy, did indicate up to 50% of patients admitted to ICU were dying. As hospitals have learned however the way patients have been treated has been greatly improved. No one is talking of ventilators anymore, and that's because it has been identified that only in certain clinical presentations or as a last resort is ventilation an appropriate treatment. One of the main ways this was identified was through the shortage of ventilators in northern Italy, where certain patients were put on oxygen as they waited for vents to become available, but this cohort were sometimes found to have better outcomes then those already on ventillation

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/01/how-is-this-possible-researchers-grapple-with-covid-19s-mysterious-mechanism

This might also account for at least some of the significant decline in deaths in Spain, Italy, France etc.

Lockdowns have helped, but without doubt doctors have applied better practices.

I think ICU and ventilators go hand in hand, whereas other methods keep them out of ICU.

nickkinneg · 18-05-2020 03:32PM

I think the government is right in being very cautious with relaxing the restrictions- it’s too high stakes - countries like Iran and parts of Africa are having to deal with two plagues - the other one being the millions of devouring locusts eating all in front of them - which means no food - this has not being obviously as widely reported

tobefrank321 · 18-05-2020 03:38PM

nickkinneg wrote: »

I think the government is right in being very cautious with relaxing the restrictions- it’s too high stakes - countries like Iran and parts of Africa are having to deal with two plagues - the other one being the millions of devouring locusts eating all in front of them - which means no food - this has not being obviously as widely reported

They are right to be cautious but they also have to hold their nerve when cases or clusters appear. South Korea should be the example. No generalised lockdown. Instead they try to track down every case through a significant and well established contact tracing system.

Even today with hardware stores opening up here, it would be very difficult to trace all customers of a particular store. The only way they could do that is credit card transactions. But with GDPR I don't think that's even possible any more.

Goldengirl · 18-05-2020 03:43PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Not even remotely true. This is not the first poster that I see that informs us of cancer patient dying off cancer but being reported as covid death.

Why do you assume I base my judgement on the poster alone?

BTW from earlier poster it is quite obvious nearly everybody has had an underlying condition.

Deaths: 1506
Hospitalised + died in hospital: 615 41%
Died in ICU: 75 5%
Underlying conditions: 1305 87%
Median age: 84
Mean age: 82

Roughly 225 people so far without underlying conditions have died, according to those figures.
If you were to hear that number of people just falling ill and dying over a normal 10 week period , you would be shocked, or at least most people would be .

uli84 · 18-05-2020 03:47PM

nickkinneg wrote: »

I think the government is right in being very cautious with relaxing the restrictions- it’s too high stakes - countries like Iran and parts of Africa are having to deal with two plagues - the other one being the millions of devouring locusts eating all in front of them - which means no food - this has not being obviously as widely reported

What it has to do with anything? Especially a country in a Western Europe like Ireland?

tobefrank321 · 18-05-2020 03:50PM

Goldengirl wrote: »

Roughly 225 people so far without underlying conditions have died, according to those figures.
If you were to hear that number of people just falling ill and dying over a normal 10 week period , you would be shocked, or at least most people would be .

Honestly, unless a post mortem is done, its impossible to know if someone had underlying conditions. Some people can live with diabetes or prediabetes for years without knowing it, I'd imagine, although a post mortem mightn't reveal diabetes.

Also, many of those without underlying conditions were likely elderly with very weak immune systems.

So its possible they had no underlying conditions. Its also possible they had undiagnosed conditions. There should be a caveat to say if post mortems were carried out or not.

That said, there are a lot of people out there with undiagnosed underlying conditions.

Dayor Knight · 18-05-2020 03:51PM

polesheep wrote: »

You are an anonymous poster on the Internet. You could be Rin Tin Tin for all I know. Without a source to support your claim, it is mere opinion.

Well, if you come on here, that's what you have to expect - anonymous posters. Either accept what you read or don't.

Ginger n Lemon · 18-05-2020 03:52PM

Goldengirl wrote: »

Roughly 225 people so far without underlying conditions have died, according to those figures.
If you were to hear that number of people just falling ill and dying over a normal 10 week period , you would be shocked, or at least most people would be .

I would be, if 225 people were 30, 35, 40 years of age.

If 90% of 225 people are over 80, and life expectancy in Ireland is 82, am i really that heartless not to be TOO surprised?

Afterall, 85 people died in Ireland per day in 2019. per day. thats 255 in 3 days. thats 4,760 in an 8 week period.

This is just what happened. And it is sad. But this is what happens every day of the year, only thing we can do as a nation is to fund our healthcare and give people access to timely good healthcare when its needed. By putting ourselves in a recession, we will not be well placed to fund our healthcare and this will have a huge knock on effect.

btw I do work in finance and have extremely good grasp of figures and numbers but by no means it makes me some sort of a genocide monster you may wish to portray me as.

Ginger n Lemon · 18-05-2020 04:11PM

Figured I'd post below before it surfaces as some sort of death and destruction warning

"CZECH STATE OF EMERGENCY ENDS AS R VALUE RISES

The Czech Republic ended its state of emergency midnight Sunday after 66 days, one week before the country will lift most of the remaining coronavirus restrictions.

That plan is set to go ahead even as the country's reproduction number, or R value — the average number of people that an infected person will transmit the virus to — climbed from 0.66-0.8 on May 2 to 0.84-1.04 on May 17. Once it hits above 1, the number of cases begins to spread exponentially.

Prime Minister Andrej Babiš has said that, in case of a second wave, regional governors could declare local states of emergency."

Just like in Denmark and Germany, the R value has increased once restrictions have been lifted.

But thats not actually critically important, whats important is what countries do then. So far Denmark is powering through, Czech republic hasnt announced any lockdown being re introduced neither did Germany (apart from the 1 town with 22,000 population and meat plant)

We will see cases increase this week here, but remember theres a lot of ICU capacity and a lot of hospital beds capacity, dont panic too much at what is to be expected. Hopefully nursing homes are better protected now as well.

Goldengirl · 18-05-2020 04:13PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I would be, if 225 people were 30, 35, 40 years of age.

If 90% of 225 people are over 80, and life expectancy in Ireland is 82, am i really that heartless not to be TOO surprised?

Afterall, 85 people died in Ireland per day in 2019. per day. thats 255 in 3 days. thats 4,760 in an 8 week period.

This is just what happened. And it is sad. But this is what happens every day of the year, only thing we can do as a nation is to fund our healthcare and give people access to timely good healthcare when its needed. By putting ourselves in a recession, we will not be well placed to fund our healthcare and this will have a huge knock on effect.

btw I do work in finance and have extremely good grasp of figures and numbers but by no means it makes me some sort of a genocide monster you may wish to portray me as.

I don't think you are a monster, really

Just would be nice if you showed a little more of whatever is in the above post , not trying to be patronising but just straight up.
Very annoying when you go to the trouble of trying to explain one side of an argument trying not get heated, to have it thrown back at you with the main points chopped out and focus altered beyond recognition.

Your comments on VitD ( research done by Trinity ) was bang on. Only thing is you left out the important bit about Sweden, Norway, Denmark having reduced numbers it is thought because they routinely supplement these sunshine vitamins .
Now why did you not mention that?

I think you'll find that the majority of those without underlying conditions are in the younger age groups , from mid tolate 30s up unfortunately, which is tragic.
This is a very nasty disease and we need to tread carefully easing up.
It is affecting all of us one way or another , not just a select few , as seem to think here, and we will all pay the price unfortunately.
I am not FG , but think they are doing as good a job as anybody else in this scenario , and there are lot of people working away through this who don'tdeserve the sctick they're getting here

Goldengirl · 18-05-2020 04:22PM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Honestly, unless a post mortem is done, its impossible to know if someone had underlying conditions. Some people can live with diabetes or prediabetes for years without knowing it, I'd imagine, although a post mortem mightn't reveal diabetes.

Also, many of those without underlying conditions were likely elderly with very weak immune systems.

So its possible they had no underlying conditions. Its also possible they had undiagnosed conditions. There should be a caveat to say if post mortems were carried out or not.

That said, there are a lot of people out there with undiagnosed underlying conditions.

If diabetes was the cause of death , and not Covid , you would know it on postmortem , and that is why they do postmortems.
Only ones not being pm' ed are elderly people who have died with as diagnosed by their treating doctor a Covid related pneumonia.
People die all the time with flu and are never positively swabbed or have a postmortem.
You really seem have trust issues with doctors and nurses don't you?
Most people are not out to lie to you .

18-05-2020 04:27PM

The reality is that less than 100 of the deaths are under 65. Only around 200 had no underlying condition. And those may well be elderly people above the life expectancy age.

We've completely overreacted to Covid and the 3 month plan is 2 months too long. We should be reopening end of June.
We never even had a first wave in Ireland.

I don't consider myself to be a cold, heartless ba**ard but there is only so much you can do to prevent over 80's from dying. If its not covid, it will be flu/pneumonia or something else.

We cannot sustain remaining in lockdown and having so many extremely low risk people out of work and out of school.
We must find a way to live with the virus and do what we can reasonably can to shield the most at risk without tanking the economy for generations.

Breezin · 18-05-2020 04:28PM

Good roundup here of the gathering relaxation of restrictions across Europe.

Deeper Blue · 18-05-2020 04:30PM

is_that_so wrote: »

We're not Iran and they seem to have been bouncing around a load of very changeable exit plans for quite a while. But why Iran anyway? Why not Denmark, NZ, Oz or Germany?

Because they're doing well so the comparison wouldn't be scary enough

Ginger n Lemon · 18-05-2020 04:31PM

Breezin wrote: »

Good roundup here of the gathering relaxation of restrictions across Europe.

In theory yes, but below??? what pubs are those. serving food?

"Ireland
Some flights and ferry services continue to operate between Ireland and the UK – although all arrivals are subject to 14 days’ self-isolation and must provide details of accommodation while in Ireland. UK nationals will be exempt from self-isolation procedure on return home – a start and end date, and whether transit through Ireland is permitted, has not been confirmed. Public transport is limited; restaurants and some pubs will reopen on 29 June; hotels, museums and galleries to reopen 20 July."

Breezin · 18-05-2020 04:34PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

In theory yes, but below??? what pubs are those. serving food?

"Ireland
Some flights and ferry services continue to operate between Ireland and the UK – although all arrivals are subject to 14 days’ self-isolation and must provide details of accommodation while in Ireland. UK nationals will be exempt from self-isolation procedure on return home – a start and end date, and whether transit through Ireland is permitted, has not been confirmed. Public transport is limited; restaurants and some pubs will reopen on 29 June; hotels, museums and galleries to reopen 20 July."

Dunno. Probably the Charlie Chawke type?

Goldengirl · 18-05-2020 04:35PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The reality is that less than 100 of the deaths are under 65. Only around 200 had no underlying condition. And those may well be elderly people above the life expectancy age.

We've completely overreacted to Covid and the 3 month plan is 2 months too long. We should be reopening end of June.
We never even had a first wave in Ireland.

I don't consider myself to be a cold, heartless ba**ard but there is only so much you can do to prevent over 80's from dying. If its not covid, it will be flu/pneumonia or something else.

We cannot sustain remaining in lockdown and having so many extremely low risk people out of work and out of school.
We must find a way to live with the virus and do what we can reasonably can to shield the most at risk without tanking the economy for generations.

People do not get to be elderly with no underlying conditions !

polesheep · 18-05-2020 04:36PM

Dayor Knight wrote: »

Well, if you come on here, that's what you have to expect - anonymous posters. Either accept what you read or don't.

You can provide a source for a claim and still remain anonymous.

Ginger n Lemon · 18-05-2020 04:36PM

Newstalk now with Ivan Yates

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRTSl6vxlYA

Primary school teachers member also called in

talking with Danish school union representative, they opened their schools 14 April.

Makes for a great listen.

snowcat · 18-05-2020 04:42PM

What is the purpose of this staggered relaxation of restrictions? More progressive countries relaxed their measures much sooner than us and have had no spike in cases. We should be looking and learning from these countries and not experimenting ourselves. Switzerland for example had a similiar sized outbreak to us. They never had a full lockdown and started easing restrictions on the 27th April for the vast majority of workers. They have had no upsurge. They had 10 new cases today. Same can be said for Denmark Germany etc

growleaves · 18-05-2020 04:44PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

In theory yes, but below??? what pubs are those. serving food?

"Ireland
Some flights and ferry services continue to operate between Ireland and the UK – although all arrivals are subject to 14 days’ self-isolation and must provide details of accommodation while in Ireland. UK nationals will be exempt from self-isolation procedure on return home – a start and end date, and whether transit through Ireland is permitted, has not been confirmed. Public transport is limited; restaurants and some pubs will reopen on 29 June; hotels, museums and galleries to reopen 20 July."

Charlie Chawkes pubs already have restaurant licences and he's announced they're reopening in June.

Conte.. · 18-05-2020 04:45PM

snowcat wrote: »

What is the purpose of this staggered relaxation of restrictions? More progressive countries relaxed their measures much sooner than us and have had no spike in cases. We should be looking and learning from these countries and not experimenting ourselves. Switzerland for example had a similiar sized outbreak to us. They never had a full lockdown and started easing restrictions on the 27th April for the vast majority of workers. They have had no upsurge. They had 10 new cases today. Same can be said for Denmark Germany etc

Fukk knows

Holohan and varadkar don't want to be seen to mess it up so being ultra cautious

Blaze420 · 18-05-2020 04:47PM

snowcat wrote: »

What is the purpose of this staggered relaxation of restrictions? More progressive countries relaxed their measures much sooner than us and have had no spike in cases. We should be looking and learning from these countries and not experimenting ourselves. Switzerland for example had a similiar sized outbreak to us. They never had a full lockdown and started easing restrictions on the 27th April for the vast majority of workers. They have had no upsurge. They had 10 new cases today. Same can be said for Denmark Germany etc

Because in Ireland we are still acting like this is some sort of Ebola rather than a severe version of the flu.

lainey_d_123 · 18-05-2020 04:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The reality is that less than 100 of the deaths are under 65. Only around 200 had no underlying condition. And those may well be elderly people above the life expectancy age.

We've completely overreacted to Covid and the 3 month plan is 2 months too long. We should be reopening end of June.
We never even had a first wave in Ireland.

I don't consider myself to be a cold, heartless ba**ard but there is only so much you can do to prevent over 80's from dying. If its not covid, it will be flu/pneumonia or something else.

We cannot sustain remaining in lockdown and having so many extremely low risk people out of work and out of school.
We must find a way to live with the virus and do what we can reasonably can to shield the most at risk without tanking the economy for generations.

Here's the thing.

I'd love to believe this. I really, really would. I want nothing more than to be sitting in a sunny beer garden having pints, or planning a little city break in Seville.

But I live in London, one of the worst hit cities in Europe. I personally know 7 different people who had very serious complications from Covid, and not one of them is elderly, or in particularly bad health. They're all under 40 (one if them is just 26), and three of them have been in hospital at least once with it, one of them in intensive care. They've been sick for over 6 weeks now. Every time they think they're getting better, it hits them again. All have reported very, very bad breathing difficulties and lung pains.

So I find it hard to believe that Covid is just like a bit of a cold for most people. I think even 'mild' cases can often include symptoms like these people have had, for weeks or even months on end. Who wants to risk getting that?!

18-05-2020 04:50PM

Conte.. wrote: »

Fukk knows

Holohan and varadkar don't want to be seen to mess it up so being ultra cautious

They are just looking to their own reputations, knowing that economic damage will not stick to them as much as a rise, however slight, in deaths. Maybe I am too cynical, but I think that this is pure and simple politics

Ginger n Lemon · 18-05-2020 04:51PM

growleaves wrote: »

Charlie Chawkes pubs already have restaurant licences and he's announced they're reopening in June.

I ll definitely be there 29th of June, getting a "sandwich"

"Charlie Chawke fears for pubs as people get used to drinking at home
Well-known publican says this year will be ‘a disaster’ for the trade"

We need to support the man and support local businesses (although its like 50 mins walk from where I live)

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - Read OP for Mod Warnings