Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - Read OP for Mod Warnings

Ginger n Lemon · 15-05-2020 02:10PM

vid36 wrote: »

I don't get this argument. Different countries are adopting different policies to reopening. Different countries have different peaks and scale of outbreak. The rule of thumb as Dr Fauci puts it should be two weeks of declining cases and two weeks of declining death totals. Denmark and Austria have had fewer deaths than us and they have substantially fewer new cases every day, both currently under 50 so it makes sense for us to adjust our road map according,

In theory yes but its far away from reality. We need a practical approach.

If we come out of this pandemic with 20% long term unemployment while other countries will have 4 - 8 %, that can not be good for our future ability to fund our healthcare and in turn ensuring good quality of life and long life expectancy for our citizens.

Other countries recognise this, there is no formula or Dr Fauci model that says "if your cases reduced 5 days in a row you can open barbers and go get a haircut". Or if you have 1000 new cases per day but 0 deaths you should go back into lockdown.

NegativeCreep · 15-05-2020 02:13PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

From RTE

The Czech Republic said today it would allow gatherings of up to 300 people later this month as coronavirus infections remained among the lowest in Europe.

Gatherings including sports events will be allowed as of 25 May, when businesses including restaurants and pubs will also be allowed to open, Health Minister Adam Vojtech said.

Shopping centres, cinemas, barbers and restaurant terraces opened on Monday after nearly two months under lockdown.

The country of 10.7 million people had registered 8,352 confirmed coronavirus cases and 293 deaths by Friday morning.

"If the epidemiological situation remains favourable, the limit will grow to 500 people on June 8 and to 1,000 on June 22," Mr Vojtech said of the size of gatherings that would be permissible.

He said restaurants and bars would not be allowed to stay open after 11pm after a recent upsurge in South Korea was linked to night clubs.

Further easing would take place only if daily infection counts would not increase after staying well under 100 cases daily throughout May, said epidemiologist Rastislav Madar, part of an official advisory team.

Some credit the success in stemming infections to the mandatory face mask rule, which will be eased as of May 25, when they will only be required in shops, offices and on public transport.

Had the chance to move to Prague a few years ago. Should’ve taken it!

stephenjmcd · 15-05-2020 02:14PM

Slight change in plans according to the independent. Homeware stores such as IKEA wont be allowed to open on Monday
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/coronavirus-ireland-homeware-stores-will-not-open-next-week-39209105.html

Ginger n Lemon · 15-05-2020 02:15PM

wakka12 wrote: »

Stockholm has experienced an Italy and Spain, not as in quite an intensely short period and all in one go, but their death rates are now comparable. Approximately 0.1% of the population of the greater Stockholm area has died from the virus, it is a comparable number of deaths per capita rate as much of Spain and Italy.Meanwhile the deaths in Spain and italy continue to fall, while in Sweden they remain consistently high. And this is a figure that Sweden should for some reason celebrate as a triumph?

I dont want to bring Fintan into this discussion but the 0.1% of the greater Stockholm area as you say seemed to have experienced flu and not covid? Flu mortality is 0.1%.

The triumph as you ask, is having a sustainable strategy that saves as many lives as possible but doesnt compromise your ability to fund your healthcare service (or any other service such as law enforcement etc) in the future. So yes, their strategy is a triumph while UK will be freezing NHS pay and highly likely introduce hire freezes as well.

irishlad123456 · 15-05-2020 02:16PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Slight change in plans according to the independent. Homeware stores such as IKEA wont be allowed to open on Monday
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/coronavirus-ireland-homeware-stores-will-not-open-next-week-39209105.html

They’re taking the piss now, might as well tell businesses to stay shut forever at this rate.
Who’s making these decisions, it is absolutely shocking that the government are being bullied around by Holohan on decision making!

Ginger n Lemon · 15-05-2020 02:17PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Slight change in plans according to the independent. Homeware stores such as IKEA wont be allowed to open on Monday
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/coronavirus-ireland-homeware-stores-will-not-open-next-week-39209105.html

This makes 0 sense.

Homeware stores are just as huge as hardware so social distancing etc can be practised identically in both. What is this i dont even...

stephenjmcd · 15-05-2020 02:17PM

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Can't see the logic in that at all tbh.

Dont understand it myself either. If the likes of woodies can open then surely an IKEA can open given your still not supposed to go more than 5k

wakka12 · 15-05-2020 02:17PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I dont want to bring Fintan into this discussion but the 0.1% of the greater Stockholm area as you say seemed to have experienced flu and not covid? Flu mortality is 0.1%.

The triumph as you ask, is having a sustainable strategy that saves as many lives as possible but doesnt compromise your ability to fund your healthcare service (or any other service such as law enforcement etc) in the future. So yes, their strategy is a triumph while UK will be freezing NHS pay and highly likely introduce hire freezes as well.

If you are unable to understand the different between a virus having a mortality rate of 0.1% among infected individuals and a virus with a much higher rate of mortality killing 0.1% of a population overall it is pointless to continue further

FishOnABike · 15-05-2020 02:18PM

daithi7 wrote: »

.
.
- specific things like schools & unis should be looked at also( evidence kids under 10 are not vectors & these are low low risk groups in a un infected country now)
.
.

What evidence is there that under 10s are not vectors & are low risk groups?

The largest population study I've seen ( https://zoonosen.charite.de/fileadmin/user_upload/microsites/m_cc05/virologie-ccm/dateien_upload/Weitere_Dateien/analysis-of-SARS-CoV-2-viral-load-by-patient-age.pdf ) which compares viral load, as a proxy for infectivity, in 3712 SARS-CoV-2 positive patients from 59,381 screened found no difference in viral load between age groups and cautions - "The viral loads observed in the present study, combined with earlier findings of similar attack
rate between children and adults (2), suggest that transmission potential in schools and
kindergartens should be evaluated using the same assumptions of infectivity as for adults."

the kelt · 15-05-2020 02:19PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Slight change in plans according to the independent. Homeware stores such as IKEA wont be allowed to open on Monday
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/coronavirus-ireland-homeware-stores-will-not-open-next-week-39209105.html

???

Why?

And to think people are convinced that we are just being careful and will deffo open things ahead of schedule down the line lol!

We cant even start a full phase 1 opening with all the numbers apparently where they need to be!

It doesnt affect me in anyway in all honesty but whats the logic behind it?

Ginger n Lemon · 15-05-2020 02:20PM

wakka12 wrote: »

If you are unable to understand the different between a virus having a mortality rate of 0.1% among infected individuals and a virus with a much higher rate of mortality killing 0.1% of a population overall it is pointless to continue further

This thread is about lifting restrictions in Ireland.

I believe there is a Sweden covid strategy thread elsewhere where there is a big debate going on about who is right and who is wrong.

Which is strange given that Ireland has 300 deaths per 1 million while Sweden 340.

15-05-2020 02:27PM

irishlad123456 wrote: »

They’re taking the piss now, might as well tell businesses to stay shut forever at this rate.
Who’s making these decisions, it is absolutely shocking that the government are being bullied around by Holohan on decision making!

well feck that now! This makes no sense. I need some mats for outside the back door, IKEA's are great and so cheap, I also need bedclothes. FECK IT ALL AT THIS STAGE :mad::mad:

wakka12 · 15-05-2020 02:29PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

This thread is about lifting restrictions in Ireland.

I believe there is a Sweden covid strategy thread elsewhere where there is a big debate going on about who is right and who is wrong.

Which is strange given that Ireland has 300 deaths per 1 million while Sweden 340.

Right,why do certain posters keep bringing up Sweden in this thread then?

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Well seeing how Spain & Italy are opening up bars and restaurants 1st of June, it does seem like everybody forgot what happened there. Or maybe they realised Covid isnt deadly enough to warrant poverty.

Reality is, Sweden did not do what Ireland did. Sweden did not experience Italy or Spain. In fact Ireland number of deaths per 1 million is 300, In Sweden its 340.

Lockdown did seem to have very little effect on deaths. On the economic front though, 28% unemployment versus 7% in Sweden. Yeah. Not good.

manniot2 · 15-05-2020 02:32PM

Homeware stores not allowed to open next week, but hardware stores can. Can someone explain the science behind that one to me?

jibber5000 · 15-05-2020 02:33PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Not a doctor, chum. I did order a 100 facemasks for myself. Seen the selfishness on here and decided "Hey, ho, I'll join in".

The next thing I'm going to start doing that the majority of the people who liked this post DO is start lying.

I'm going to lie about everything to suit my own agenda. **** the greater good.

Pro economic brigade policy for life. Let all the old people die. Am I doing it right, chum?

What do you think is going to happen the health service during the recession that's coming?

I don't recall any poster here having an issue with the lockdown, when the data seemed to suggest Covid carried a much higher risk than we now know. As time has progressed we've learned that, thankfully it is not as serious as first indicated.

However we still continue to have a lockdown in large swaths of the country which are not recording daily CASES nevermind deaths.

Our health service has really struggled to train and retain doctors for a multitude of reasons, primarily the massive disparity in the consultant contracts from 2012 on. A lot of peripheral hospitals are populated by locum consultants who have not completed training schemes.

This has a massive impact on patient care. Any chance we had of resolving this mess has been shot to pieces by Covid. When we are plunged into a massive recession, exacerbated by our excessive lockdown, the money needed will not go into our health service. This will lead to poorer outcomes for patients in all disciples, especially outside the large urban hospitals.

Brandishing people with legitimate concerns as parriahs for being "pro economic" is so lazy and weakens all the arguments you are making.

NegativeCreep · 15-05-2020 02:33PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Slight change in plans according to the independent. Homeware stores such as IKEA wont be allowed to open on Monday
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/coronavirus-ireland-homeware-stores-will-not-open-next-week-39209105.html

Absolutely ridiculous. I wonder what brain dead excuse there’ll be to justify this. Bet we’ll get the finger wagged at us again for being bold boys and girls while NPHET still can’t get testing and contact tracing up to scratch. Demoralising.

Kermit.de.frog · 15-05-2020 02:36PM

Sweden is not making any progress at all on its death toll. Another 117 today.

Here we'll be under 10 daily imminently and far fewer new cases.

It is a complete lie that the measures have not worked or were not needed.

They clearly have worked and we are in a far better position for it.

Countries without control will face continued international restrictions on travel and business.

As a result of our measures and the compliance of the population we wont be one of them.

Ginger n Lemon · 15-05-2020 02:37PM

No love for our idea of saving the economy, below is from S Harris

"Earlier openings

The minister also appeared to pour cold water on hopes of some businesses opening sooner than is set out in phased roadmap.

He said allowing some places to open to sooner could cause the plan to collapse.

When asked if people might be able to move beyond the 5km in order to travel to their local club to play non-contact sports, the minister said the government will consider all of these issues.

The 5km rationale is that the further people travel from home, the more risk there is of the virus spreading, he said.

“I would be nervous about moving too far beyond that advice,” he said."

We have people in charge who have no courage and very little common sense.

https://www.thejournal.ie/phase-one-easing-restrictions-cabinet-5099611-May2020/

vid36 · 15-05-2020 02:41PM

Germany has a criteria for reimposing lockdowns, if a state has more than 50 new cases per 100,000 population over a 7 day period.

Allinall · 15-05-2020 02:41PM

manniot2 wrote: »

Homeware stores not allowed to open next week, but hardware stores can. Can someone explain the science behind that one to me?

I would presume it's because outdoor workers are going back to work on Monday, and will require supplies.

batman_oh · 15-05-2020 02:42PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Sweden is not making any progress at all on its death toll. Another 117 today.

Here we'll be under 10 daily imminently and far fewer new cases.

It is a complete lie that the measures have not worked or were not needed.

They clearly have worked and we are in a far better position for it.

Countries without control will face continued international restrictions on travel and business.

As a result of our measures and the compliance of the population we wont be one of them.

A far better position to do what though? The virus isn't going anywhere. Should we just maintain everything as is for the next 2 years? It's really low now and will likely rise every time we get to one of our stupidly drawn out phases. Do we just drag it out forever?

Dayor Knight · 15-05-2020 02:42PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

There is no science behind lockdowns, wearing masks outside of hospitals or making airplanes fly with empty middle seats.

Theres a lot of science behind washing your hands.

We are the country who are experimenting with our kids mental health and social abilities, and educational prospects too. We are damaging our kids. Unfortunately. And as Leo said, it will look pretty bad if we are the last country to get our kids back to school.

We need to change and fix things much faster than 21st of July or 10th of August.

There's no science behind lockdowns? Are you serious?

Ginger n Lemon · 15-05-2020 02:44PM

Dayor Knight wrote: »

There's no science behind lockdowns? Are you serious?

I am. There is no scientific paper on effectiveness of putting healthy people into quarantine. This has never been done before and, well obviously, effectiveness of such could not be reviewed.

There have been plenty of Japanese studies & Chinese studies done that showed people contracting the virus while staying indoors. in fact 299/300 sampled covid infections were contracted from indoors in 1 such study.

storker · 15-05-2020 02:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Pro economic brigade policy for life. Let all the old people die. Am I doing it right, chum?

The "let-'er-rip" brigade.

.

KrustyUCC · 15-05-2020 02:46PM

stephenjmcd wrote: »

Slight change in plans according to the independent. Homeware stores such as IKEA wont be allowed to open on Monday
https://m.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/coronavirus-ireland-homeware-stores-will-not-open-next-week-39209105.html

What a joke

It should more places opening up not less

This does not bode well for the remain phases

Kermit.de.frog · 15-05-2020 02:46PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

This has never been done before .

Just not true.

Why do you insist on saying things that are patently false?

15-05-2020 02:46PM

The Irish government have made a right mess of things with their 5 year reopening plan.

So we asked businesses to think about how they can reopen with distancing in place. Businesses went away and found solutions. Put the solutions in place to reopen. But are still not allowed to reopen anyways.

The 5km rule is still in place. This is an absolute joke. Some people are not able to see family to late July if they follow the rules. While others can do so from Monday... because thats not going to cause a lot of bitterness in society.

We also need to redefine the word essential. A lot of things weren't too essential on 8th March, but are much more essential on 15th May.

What numbers do we need to enter phase 5? Seriously... If we can't even properly start phase 1, how the hell will we ever start phase 5? Are we just going to reach a point were we literally have no money left?

The one thing I have heard the government mention is air travel. Also the one thing that practically nobody cares about right now.

Ginger n Lemon · 15-05-2020 02:48PM

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Just not true.

Why do you insist on saying thing things that are patently false?

If you can link a scientific, peer reviewed published paper determining that lockdowns are effective or that putting healthy people into quarantine is an effective strategy to slow down disease please do.

Before then I stand corrected.

wakka12 · 15-05-2020 02:48PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

I am. There is no scientific paper on effectiveness of putting healthy people into quarantine. This has never been done before and, well obviously, effectiveness of such could not be reviewed.

There have been plenty of Japanese studies & Chinese studies done that showed people contracting the virus while staying indoors. in fact 299/300 sampled covid infections were contracted from indoors in 1 such study.

What did they contract it from, their dog? If people stay indoors, there is no infection in the community. Community transmission ends abruptly and everwyhere if people follow the set rules. This has been demonstrated consistently across the world from Wuhan to London to New York. Lockdowns work at stopping widespread community infection. That is not up for debate

Where lockdowns fall down are, what is the point of them as infection will simply just pick up where it stopped off when they end

Jim Bob Scratcher · 15-05-2020 02:49PM

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

No love for our idea of saving the economy, below is from S Harris

"Earlier openings

The minister also appeared to pour cold water on hopes of some businesses opening sooner than is set out in phased roadmap.

He said allowing some places to open to sooner could cause the plan to collapse.

When asked if people might be able to move beyond the 5km in order to travel to their local club to play non-contact sports, the minister said the government will consider all of these issues.

The 5km rationale is that the further people travel from home, the more risk there is of the virus spreading, he said.

“I would be nervous about moving too far beyond that advice,” he said."

We have people in charge who have no courage and very little common sense.

https://www.thejournal.ie/phase-one-easing-restrictions-cabinet-5099611-May2020/

Our lord and saviour Tony has the final say :rolleyes:

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - **Read OP for Mod Warnings**

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part III - Read OP for Mod Warnings