Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

randylonghorn · 12-05-2020 7:12pm

Spot on, byron. But the excrement has now hit the proverbial fan, and I can't see a way of shovelling it back in.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Some teachers set their own mocks. So for all intents and purposes it is no different to using the result of a Christmas or summer test.

Yep, there isn't a problem in that case.

Mardy Bum · 12-05-2020 7:40pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Some teachers set their own mocks. So for all intents and purposes it is no different to using the result of a Christmas or summer test.

Christmas and summer tests are as useless as the mocks. The vast majority of the time they assess small parts of the course and teachers are prone to giving too much support. There are also teachers who have no idea of national standards and use exams like these for motivational purposes almost.

That is not to tar all teachers with the same brush but an NQT will not be working at the same level as an expert teacher and they shouldn't expected to be.

man_no_plan · 12-05-2020 7:44pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Need help

Our principal is asking us to send an email stating if we haven't completed the course with LC students. I presume they not entitled to demand this at all

It would probably help when she gets an phone call from an irate parent saying x, y and z weren't covered and my child ... and that teacher never liked my child and ... and so on.

I would imagine that they're perfectly entitled to ask you and I would think that you should answer.

There isn't always a conspiracy. If it's not covered but you would have had it done were it not for the intervention of the DES then there's no issue.

Demand is a bit dramatic. You have a job to do and I think it's reasonable that a principal could enquire on the progress. How it is a union issue is beyond me. As for telling them to **** off or whatever was suggested I don't think most teachers would like to be spoken to that way and I think they owe the same respect to any other person, principal or otherwise, regardless of how you perceive their ability.

I'm sorry but there's no excuse for pure bad manners.

rainbowtrout · 12-05-2020 7:49pm

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Christmas and summer tests are as useless as the mocks. The vast majority of the time they assess small parts of the course and teachers are prone to giving too much support. There are also teachers who have no idea of national standards and use exams like these for motivational purposes almost.

That is not to tar all teachers with the same brush but an NQT will not be working at the same level as an expert teacher and they shouldn't expected to be.

Well what else are teachers supposed to use then to calculate a grade?

LW2018 · 12-05-2020 7:54pm

km79 wrote: »

Everyone is unsure and everyone is interpreting it differently
That’s why everyone needs to wait until it is cleared up and teacher guidelines issued

I've heard so many contradicting things from friends in different schools. It is unsettling not knowing the way it is going to go. Ranking your own class is challenging enough to then have to go back and debate their ranking position in the full year group against other students you have no academic knowledge on. Will there be, pardon the pun, the idea of 'pulling rank' if two students in the year end on the same calculated percentage mark - what is the discourse of this conversation between department members to suggest student A is ranked 17 and student B is ranked 18 when they could be level pegging and both teachers believe they should be ranked 17th? Or is there the possibility of students being ranked equally?

I know as I type this - nobody is likely to know as the document is so vague and can be interpreted differently... but someone possibly may have heard more

Shn99 · 12-05-2020 7:55pm

All the talk in the media is on the wellbeing of the students but nothing for the teachers who are heading into unchartered territory. Must be hard not to say a proper goodbye to students either. None of my teachers we’re able to say goodbye to us because students were told by the principal to log out Teams and cut contact with teachers. Sad to say the least but in the grand scheme of things people probably think it doesn’t matter.

History Queen · 12-05-2020 7:59pm

Shn99 wrote: »

All the talk in the media is on the wellbeing of the students but nothing for the teachers who are heading into unchartered territory. Must be hard not to say a proper goodbye to students either. None of my teachers we’re able to say goodbye to us because students were told by the principal to log out Teams and cut contact with teachers. Sad to say the least but in the grand scheme of things people probably think it doesn’t matter.

It does matter. I felt awful not saying a proper goodbye to my students. I uploaded a message for them on teams but its not the same. And like that, I don't know if any of them will even see it as they've been told we've finished now.

jayo76 · 12-05-2020 8:26pm

We havent had any instruction one way or another from management in our school as to whether contact should cease with 6th years. I had a teams revision class set for yesterday, we went ahead with it and it was great to use it as final class, wish them well as a group, share some of the funny stories from their 6 years and for me it was a total antidote to the stress I have felt since Friday.

There was not one mention of grades, exams or how they were likely to perform, for that 40 minutes their most pressing concern was would the school allow them back next year if this thing finally settles to thank their teachers and have a graduation evening. For me that short 40 minute class time was priceless in snapping me out of the haze I have been in since Friday of nearly seeing students in terms of potential future grades and bringing back the reality of young adults who have grown so much in the last 6 years.

Difficulties will of course lie ahead, my stress around grades will return but today did reaffirm the reasons for me why we do all this.

Bobtheman · 12-05-2020 9:00pm

The entire thing is farcical. Yes as Mandy Bum put it-Summer tests etc are not that great a guide but what else is there?
They made a huge fxxx up canceling it in July. It was possible. Great letter by Declan white in Todays Irish times outlining this argument
Look I decided long ago that large chunks of what I'm meant to do is farcical.
Put up with obnoxious behavior from students daily. Behavior that no sane human being should have to tolerate.
No functioning library
Poorly funded schools
Keeping kids in the system who should not be attempting the LC.
An excessive-class schedule of 33 classes a week.
Atrocious parenting that will buy PlayStations but no books.
A terminal exam in English worth 100%
Turning schools into Therapy centers

Bobtheman · 12-05-2020 9:03pm

Sir, – The decision to postpone Leaving Cert 2020 has been taken with little or no consideration of the effects on those students who had listened to the Government’s earlier advice and had studied and planned to sit the exams in late July. Any postponement of the exams means that the results will not have any bearing on college placements, and so “cancellation” is the more appropriate word.

I am not referring to the Plan B decision to move towards a predictive grading mechanism, which is an administrative minefield, but will probably suit a large number of students, depending on their personal, educational or medical circumstances. I just want to know what happened to Plan A! Why can the students who want to sit the Leaving Cert on July 29th not be facilitated?

Currently in early May, the general population has access to large stores such as Tesco, Lidl, Dunnes, etc. There are at least 100 people working and shopping in my local Tesco at any one time, and people have adapted to procedures and habits to allow this without posing a public health risk.

By July 29th, the roadmap projects that we will have resumed weddings, normal operation of hospitals and access to schools for teachers.

However, for reasons not credibly explained, we cannot devise a safe method to accommodate Leaving Cert students (probably in much reduced numbers) in otherwise empty schools? For instance in my son’s school, there are 60 rooms for at most 180 potential exam-takers.

To add to the confusion, regular school attendance will apparently start in September, a few weeks after the cancelled Leaving Cert!

This situation is unfair to students who have worked hard to have their destiny in their own hands, and not subject to a statistical treatment of a third party’s best guess on their leaving Cert results. It is also important to note that these students have nothing to do for months – with no prospect of summer jobs, sports or holidays in the near future.

I plead with the Government to follow the great example of our healthcare system, food providers, and other frontline workers and show the organisation and leadership to allow these students to finish in 2020 what they have worked towards for six years.

Or have these students’ plans been sacrificed for political expediency during new government formation talks? – Yours, etc,
Declan White
Irish Times today

Bobtheman · 12-05-2020 9:04pm

Letter puts it better than I can

randylonghorn · 12-05-2020 9:29pm

I agree completely with that letter, but I think the horse has bolted and is in the next county at this stage, and I honestly can't see it being rounded up and put back in its stall.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 12-05-2020 9:34pm

man_no_plan wrote: »

I would imagine that they're perfectly entitled to ask you and I would think that you should answer.

Got clarification and we're not to make any such declaration. Thanks for your input

eastie17 · 12-05-2020 10:09pm

alroley wrote: »

I completely agree, but the only reason it has ended up this way is that the students were loud enough to get what they wanted. I saw nothing online or in the media from those that wanted to do exams.

There was nothing from teachers unions either to back up the Governments plan to hold the exam and throw in their support to doing the leaving. It seems to me they sat on the fence and did nothing to calm down the clamor to bring in the random number generator

History Queen · 12-05-2020 10:28pm

eastie17 wrote: »

There was nothing from teachers unions either to back up the Governments plan to hold the exam and throw in their support to doing the leaving. It seems to me they sat on the fence and did nothing to calm down the clamor to bring in the random number generator

Yes there was support from them both in terms of the original postponement.

How can you sit on the fence for a decison making process that you aren't a part of?

Treppen · 12-05-2020 11:07pm

randylonghorn wrote: »

I agree completely with that letter, but I think the horse has bolted and is in the next county at this stage, and I honestly can't see it being rounded up and put back in its stall.

In terms of the IT article, I largly agree but there might be a bit of a conundrum, students with predicted grades vs written August exam grades both applying through the CAO for 2020 college places.

Could the ones who get predicted grades AND written exam grades, choose between which grade they'll go with ?
If so then I reckon it'll get the wind up those going for predicted and intending to go to college. Then there would be a pile on.

if students had to choose one or the other then I don't know what would happen. Could you do that... make the students choose one or the other Predicted or end of July. Now that would be really putting pressure on a lot of them?

Hence why the govt. might be trying to push the sit down exams out as far as possible. They'll probably use the practicals as an excuse to hold them off too. Shur they can't have them getting 100% for 2020 CAO, when the predicted grades crew wouldn't get that... plus they can't give them 100% for the practical AND compete for points with the 2021 crowd .

Treppen · 12-05-2020 11:19pm

eastie17 wrote: »

There was nothing from teachers unions either to back up the Governments plan to hold the exam and throw in their support to doing the leaving. It seems to me they sat on the fence and did nothing to calm down the clamor to bring in the random number generator

It was up to the Government (and Leo's lack of leadership on the Late Late) to hold the line and tell people it's basically wait and see, there would have still been the option of later exams anyway!!! The unions had already signed up to Plan A. The steam train took over when the media came baying for blood with one side of the debate... in a matter of days last week.

I want to know what Plan C is?

km79 · 12-05-2020 11:21pm

I just got the same email from Kieran Christie again with today’s date on it this time

coillsaille · 12-05-2020 11:28pm

Newbie20 wrote: »

As far as I know, it was the ASTI’s suggestion to mark out of 1000. Maybe I am missing something here but why the hell did they think that was a good suggestion? People think in percentages not out of one thousand! That’s just going to create more hassle of having to give them a mark out of 1000 and then convert afterwards. Pure nonsense.

They said it would make it easier to distinguish between students very close together. I don’t see how it helps but as I said maybe I’m missing something.

It's just all about the rankings, that's all they care about. By marking out of 1,000 they're just making double sure that we have to rank the students. They should have just told us to use percentages with one decimal place, same result and not as confusing.

Edit: Talking about DES here, not aware that ASTI proposed the 1,000%

randylonghorn · 12-05-2020 11:29pm

Treppen wrote: »

In terms of the IT article, I largly agree but there might be a bit of a conundrum, students with predicted grades vs written August exam grades both applying through the CAO for 2020 college places.

Letter seemed to be calling for the re-instatement of the late July / August LC option (Plan A), and the consignment pf predicted grades to the 9th circle of hell where they belong.

Hence why I said I felt that horse was now out of sight.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong though ... re-reading it now, there's a certain ambiguity all right.

mirrorwall14 · 12-05-2020 11:33pm

I cannot see predictive grading being rolled back in. But God can we not just get the damn things done and back to students ASAP like the next four weeks and let them sit repeat exams if they want in August?

And they do NOT get to hedge their bets and take the better of the two results. Not happy with predictive grade? No problem. Take the test. That’s now your result

randylonghorn · 12-05-2020 11:37pm

coillsaille wrote: »

By marking out of 1,000 they're just making double sure that we have to rank the students.

It may actually just be about the way the SEC uploads the results.

I know our exam system works out of 1000 for no better reason that I could ever see than that was the way it worked.

And I have a vague memory of the SEC one being similar.

History Queen · 12-05-2020 11:38pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I cannot see predictive grading being rolled back in. But God can we not just get the damn things done and back to students ASAP like the next four weeks and let them sit repeat exams if they want in August?

And they do NOT get to hedge their bets and take the better of the two results. Not happy with predictive grade? No problem. Take the test. That’s now your result

As much as I want to see it be rolled back, I agree with you, I can't see it happening. But then I couldn't see any of this happening, so who knows?!

Seriously though, what is with the lack of teacher voice in all this? It's madness!

man_no_plan · 12-05-2020 11:42pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I cannot see predictive grading being rolled back in. But God can we not just get the damn things done and back to students ASAP like the next four weeks and let them sit repeat exams if they want in August?

And they do NOT get to hedge their bets and take the better of the two results. Not happy with predictive grade? No problem. Take the test. That’s now your result

If we could get it boxed off by the end of next week or the middle of the following week teachers might actually get to say goodbye to students they have had for 6 years.

The brakes were slammed on and that's meant to be the end of it. I think that's one of the hardest parts of it for a lot of teachers and students.

We just need instructions then we will get it done. If the 'senior people' in the dept. spent less time briefing Carl O'Brien they might have time to get the details out to schools where the real work is happening.

As for the repeats.... All the talk of equality, an extra 6 months to get ready for the LC, if I really wanted medicine I'd work my balls off until the results and if I got it fair enough, if I didn't I'd stay going and hit the exams hard.

They might not want grade inflation but it will come, it won't be the lads and girls on 350 repeating.

History Queen · 12-05-2020 11:56pm

This makes for stark reading if these are the measures that would have been needed for the LC in July... it keeps saying the SEC think these measuree would have been needed. Surely they were following NPHET advice, the same advice the government are following to create the roadmap for opening up the country?

https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/jess-casey-leaving-cert-measures-inform-back-to-school-considerations-998898.html?__twitter_impression=true

But how then can restaurants open in June.? I can't process all the contractions and possible implications.

Bananaleaf · 12-05-2020 11:57pm

History Queen wrote: »

The poor attitude towards teachers in this country that has increased over the last few years means our expertise is often dismissed and diminished. Our voices drowned out. Because everyone went to school and thus think they know best.

Absolutely! Couldn't have said it better myself

man_no_plan wrote: »

If we could get it boxed off by the end of next week or the middle of the following week teachers might actually get to say goodbye to students they have had for 6 years.

Was thinking about this today - I can't see that it would be appropriate to take up contact with a 6th year until after the appeals window has closed.

Millem · 13-05-2020 7:02am

Apologies if this has already been discussed but we were told we need to have the results ready by the last day of school in May and have a SLAR type meeting before that.
Queue a big dash to get old roll books on the 18th May!!
Apparently the home ec journals will be returned or the scores! I see it being a very tight time frame.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 13-05-2020 7:43am

Millem wrote: »

Apologies if this has already been discussed but we were told we need to have the results ready by the last day of school in May and have a SLAR type meeting before that.
Queue a big dash to get old roll books on the 18th May!!
Apparently the home ec journals will be returned or the scores! I see it being a very tight time frame.

The ASTI stated in their FAQ they think the May deadline may not be met. To be honest I'd rather be done with it by then, accurately of course, but not dragging it out.

The meeting of teachers is to involve LC teachers of the subject or, in the case of only one teacher of a subject at LC level, with the vice-principal

Millem · 13-05-2020 7:59am

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

The ASTI stated in their FAQ they think the May deadline may not be met. To be honest I'd rather be done with it by then, accurately, of course, but not dragging it out.

The meeting of teachers is to involve LC teachers of the subject or, in the case of only one teacher of a subject at LC level, with the vice-principal

We had a meeting yesterday. I can’t see the deadline being met with Home Ec tbh. God only knows when we will get the journals or scores back.
One teacher asked the question re SLAR with Vice P and they were told they would be better off having it with someone in their department eg one Economics teacher has SLAR with Business teacher.
The Business teacher in question is not a qualified Economics teacher.

man_no_plan · 13-05-2020 8:10am

Millem wrote: »

We had a meeting yesterday. I can’t see the deadline being met with Home Ec tbh. God only knows when we will get the journals or scores back.
One teacher asked the question re SLAR with Vice P and they were told they would be better off having it with someone in their department eg one Economics teacher has SLAR with Business teacher.
The Business teacher in question is not a qualified Economics teacher.

I'm not sure about the SEC returning anything. The guidelines don't say about you applying a mark to anything, just estimating a percentage. This is a desk exercise based on the data you have in front of you.

Hopefully there will be something today from the DES there's so much speculation, nobody knows if they're coming or going.

Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

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