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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #6182
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    MJohnston wrote: »
    I sense a disturbance in the force...

    All the spare time means his crayons are getting a serious workout these days.


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    #6183
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Ireland struggles to close a level crossing.


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    #6184
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    All the spare time means his crayons are getting a serious workout these days.

    In this case, creating a link between the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines, much of the crayon work has already been done by those employed to create such a link, i.e. the metrowest.

    It just needs a bit of tweaking, to incorporate the two lines. A bit of tunnel here, an overground section there, etc.

    They're both coming into the city from Kildare, they're not far apart at a number of points. Connecting them on their way into/out of the city shouldn't be a major engineering challenge, and it might be done in such a way that some of the objectives of the Metrowest are also achieved.


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    #6185
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,769 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    A link between the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines would have to be west of Louisa Bridge/Leixlip Reservoir/Backweston for operational and buildability reasons. This would mean that it is not compatible with Metrowest in any way. A Maynooth/Kildare line link would be address capacity issues on the wider heavy rail network (primarily to get Sligo intercity/commuter trains off the two track line into Connolly and onto the quadtrack into Heuston), Metrowest is/was intended as a light rail orbital route linking numerous suburbs and radial public transport routes. To combine both into a single project would leave the objectives of one, and possibly both, unfulfilled. It's crayoning in its purest form, drawing lines between points and assuming that is enough to solve problems without any recognition of what the actual problems are.


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    #6186
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Even do I have little time from the greens I see they have now said if they where to go in to government Public Transport would have to be a No.1 priority so maybe there could be hope for DU yet


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    #6187
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Even do I have little time from the greens I see they have now said if they where to go in to government Public Transport would have to be a No.1 priority so maybe there could be hope for DU yet

    I fear they will prioritise projects that aren't anywhere near ready to go (i.e. no real chance of happening) and drop projects that we are closer to implementing (i.e. Bus Connects which is hot topic in Eamon Ryan's constituency). They've already shown that they're prepared to derail public transport when it suits them or when they are short a few votes.


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    #6188
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    donvito99 wrote: »
    I fear they will prioritise projects that aren't anywhere near ready to go (i.e. no real chance of happening) and drop projects that we are closer to implementing (i.e. Bus Connects which is hot topic in Eamon Ryan's constituency). They've already shown that they're prepared to derail public transport when it suits them or when they are short a few votes.

    Hopefully the mantra will be Build Build Build as this will help us to get back up and running again as an economy in general


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    #6189
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    marno21 wrote: »
    Irish Rail have tendered for consultants for the preparation of a Business Case for the DART Expansion programme

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/154022/1/0
    Awarded to AECOM

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/229729


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    #6190
    Consonata
    Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Consonata


    marno21 wrote: »
    Awarded to AECOM

    https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders/ViewNotice/229729

    Is this related to DU or Dart expansion writ large.


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    #6191
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Consonata wrote: »
    Is this related to DU or Dart expansion writ large.
    Yes. AECOM will need to prepare a business case to submit to Government to enable the approving of funds for the construction of the DART Expansion project, which is the existing DART lines out to Drogheda, Maynooth and Hazelhatch + improvements in the city centre and on the Southeastern line out to Greystones. Nothing for DART Underground.


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    #6192
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    This Business Case nonsense is soul destroying.
    Surely it is a foregone conclusion that the DART needs to be expanded? Really all it should take is for engineers to submit passengers figures to Gov for approval to expand to be granted.
    And since when was public transport a business? Most of its benefits are economic, social and environmental. These aren't easy to place a monetary value on.


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    #6193
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    spacetweek wrote: »
    This Business Case nonsense is soul destroying.
    Surely it is a foregone conclusion that the DART needs to be expanded? Really all it should take is for engineers to submit passengers figures to Gov for approval to expand to be granted.
    And since when was public transport a business? Most of its benefits are economic, social and environmental. These aren't easy to place a monetary value on.

    It’s more to make sure that it’s being executed in the most efficient way than to prove the need for DART Expansion. And that it’s the best use of funds


    But I would agree that for all of these projects the goalposts can be shifted to suit whatever narrative is required by either party - so the delays and costs they introduce are depressing


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    #6194
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Was such a business case ever needed for the WRC?


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    #6195
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Was such a business case ever needed for the WRC?

    Yes, they even created one as well.

    If I recall correctly, it was hilariously optimistic, with half of Connacht travelling on the line everyday or something like that. Obviously, this did not come to pass, so they had to create a new business case, which the WRC, in fairness, eventually met a few years ago, albeit years and years after the updated business case projected.

    We really need a politician to advocate for public transport in Ireland, and particularly in Dublin. Getting good PT built in Dublin is a prerequisite to getting good PT built elsewhere in my opinion.


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    #6196
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Was such a business case ever needed for the WRC?

    yes, the conclusion was that it 'may be feasible'/ Predicated on the assumption that every man woman and child in the counties served were on the morning service


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    #6197
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,297 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    A solid business case for a more extensive DART network existed in 1975 at a time when Dublin's Metropolitain Area had just over a third the population it has today, and economic activity was some small % of what it is today. They hardly think that the need has decreased in the interim period of paralysis.


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    #6198
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,430 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    cgcsb wrote: »
    A solid business case for a more extensive DART network existed in 1975 at a time when Dublin's Metropolitain Area had just over a third the population it has today, and economic activity was some small % of what it is today. They hardly think that the need has decreased in the interim period of paralysis.

    They could (mistakenly) argue that there are a lot of motorways built now (M50, Port Tunnel, etc) plus the Luas lines that cross but do not network. What more could we want (apart from a Metrolink line or two).

    Of course, the requirement for Dart expansion has increased, not lessened. The biggest mistake was to ditch the DU.


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    #6199
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    At the end of the day it's not business cases getting things built and the project with the strongest business case is not built in priority to other projects.


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    #6200
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Last year IE advertised for a full design and construction team for the dart expansion . Was this just IE rail getting ahead of themselves?


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    #6201
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    roadmaster wrote: »
    Last year IE advertised for a full design and construction team for the dart expansion . Was this just IE rail getting ahead of themselves?

    Well it is underway, so not reallly.


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    #6202
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    spacetweek wrote: »
    Well it is underway, so not reallly.

    I didn t know construction had started


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    #6203
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    roadmaster wrote: »
    I didn t know construction had started

    Construction has not started on DART Expansion.

    The project is only at the preliminary design stage.

    Detailed design work has yet to happen.


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    #6204
    Dats me
    Registered Users Posts: 333 ✭✭Dats me


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Construction has not started on DART Expansion.

    The project is only at the preliminary design stage.

    Detailed design work has yet to happen.


    Can they just copy and paste most of the prelim design from the previous rail order application? I presume when they applied for DU they were going to electrify the lines as well?


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    #6205
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,584 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Dats me wrote: »
    Can they just copy and paste most of the prelim design from the previous rail order application? I presume when they applied for DU they were going to electrify the lines as well?

    There has been no detailed design work on the Maynooth line and Northern line elements published - only broad brush strokes.

    On the Kildare route, the only element that would have had some design work would be Parkwest towards Heuston, but the original underground element of that was to start at Inchicore. This will require major redesign and construction works along "the Gullet" to expand it to four tracks.

    This is going to require a full detailed design project before we get anywhere.


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    #6206
    roadmaster
    Registered Users Posts: 3,649 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    LXFlyer wrote: »
    Construction has not started on DART Expansion.

    The project is only at the preliminary design stage.

    Detailed design work has yet to happen.

    I see the only reason I asked was they where recruiting last year a full construction supervision team from SRE's to clerk of works and safety officers


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    #6207
    CatInABox
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Saw this over on Skyscraper City, an application has gone in for the site on Sandwith St that the NTA and IR previously protected as it was to be used as a site for Dart Underground. Looks like that protection has come to an end, as the design statement has a letter attached from IR saying that the route is no longer considered protected. Disappointing, as there's not many sites left around Pearse that could enable an interchange there.

    Going for a fully mined out station would be insanely expensive. Hard to shake the feeling that DU is permanently gone.


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    #6208
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,550 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    I would certainly think that the subsequent and currently planned changes in Dublin's infrastructure will have rendered the previous DU plans outdated at the very least. For example, does the Stephen's Green station make sense anymore in the context of Luas Cross City and the plans for Metrolink? Is it more effective to have a single interchange with existing DART and Metrolink (and Luas, sort of) at Tara Street instead of both SSG and Pearse? How much has the Phoenix Park Tunnel re-use affected the business case?

    I'm not suggesting any answers to these (although I strongly suspect SSG doesn't make sense anymore) but I do think the context that DU will have to live has massively changed since it was last proposed.


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    #6209
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,856 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    I have an idea.

    How about we run it under College Green...... :pac:


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    #6210
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    The is no way that any of us can tell how Dublin, and Dublin's plans for public transport, are going to emerge from this current situation.

    But the following is based only on the proposals/projects mentioned in the last three posts on this board.

    Firstly, IR's decision to remove their hold on a possible station location on Sandwith Street. This is very sensible, as there was no reason - ever - to introduce a North-South element to what was a broadly East-West alignment in what is basically a flat city.

    It had always been obvious that the LUAS lines were going to be linked, at some stage - as indeed they now have been - so a major detour of the DU line to fit in with IE's plan - backed, unfortunately by others like the DTO (Dublin Transportation Office) and DOT (Department of Transport) - 'to interchange with the LUAS' at St. Stephen's Green, adding in a number of large curves, and extra length, and building this beside a 22 acre park with no commuters, was crazy, and utterly short-sighted.

    The second thing is Tara Street, and I think this is a really key issue. I very much welcome people like MJohnston to the group who feel that a direct route across the city is the best long-term option. A welcome addition to those who are in favour of 'flattening the curve: including flattening all the curvy bits of the formerly-proposed interconnector', if you like:D.

    If Dublin decides that the DU project is definitively not going to be built, then the currently proposed (rather circuitous) O'Connell Street - Tara Street - St. Stephen's Green probably broadly makes sense, because it is partly to enable metrolink connection with the Southside DART and partly with the Northside DART at that location.

    On the other hand, if Dublin decides that the DU project will happen, then it makes no sense to build it via Tara Street for its proposed connection with the Southside DART, as that could happen on the northside (currently proposed at Glasnevin, though I think Drumcondra is worth a serious look).

    The question then arises why the metrolink and DART Underground (the Northern and Hazelhatch Lines, at least initially) could not happen in some large city centre location, such as College Green. (I think it was even mentioned a couple of posts above).

    The city is hoping to pedestrianise this area, and I doubt if a couple of years of digging would turn them off the idea, particularly if the area could still retain a very large public transport function under the new cobblestones. And it has enormous amounts of space.

    From the point of view of the Metrolink, it could then have a direct O'Connell - College Green - St. Stephen's Green route, with no faffing around to Tara St., causing trouble in relation to swimming pools, peoples' homes and such, or the extra distance involved.

    Just straight, O'Connell Street-College Green (DART interchange)-St.Stephen's Green. That would seem to me to be the sensible option, in the scenario that the DART underground is going to be built.

    Assuming a Hazelhatch - Northern DART and Maynooth - Southern DART have a connection at Pearse, and a Southern DART - metrolink connection on the northside somewhere (Glasnevin or, as I prefer, Drumcondra), and a Northside DART and metrolink connection at College Green, which the city is hoping to pedestrianise. I mean, what's not to like?


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    #6211
    riddlinrussell
    Registered Users Posts: 992 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    strassenwo!f wrote: »

    If Dublin decides that the DU project is definitively not going to be built, then the currently proposed (rather circuitous) O'Connell Street - Tara Street - St. Stephen's Green probably broadly makes sense, because it is partly to enable metrolink connection with the Southside DART and partly with the Northside DART at that location.

    I think this is the key fragment of your post Strassen, for now the metrolink planners have to operate on the assumption that DU wont happen/wont happen for a very long time. So the current route is the route they have gone with, if DU ever gets built it can work around the (hopefully) completed metrolink to acheive maximum interchange efficiency, maybe a station with Tara Street at one end and College Green at the other? (DU with Crossrail sized platforms too much to ask for? :P)


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