DART+ (DART Expansion)

salmocab

On the spoil thing it really depends on the size of the holes. 2 might have less or might have more.

gjim

Last Stop wrote: »

The volume of spoil of 2 slightly smaller twin bore tunnels is greater than 1 single bore tunnel.

In the single bore tunnel, the diameter is being driven by the height rather than width so a single bore tunnel isn’t that much bigger.

A large 2-track single bore tunnel will only be slightly less than double the diameter of a single track tunnel all things considered. Yes metro cars are a little higher than wider but not enough to compensate for the fact that such a large tunnel generates twice as much spoil as two half-diameter tunnels.

The cost saving of a single tunnel has nothing to do with the amount of spoil (which is much greater than with twin smaller tunnels). It's to do with the simple fact that you're only running one TBM and tunnelling half the distance.

Kevtherev1

Last Stop wrote: »

Not just Eamon Ryan, a newsletter was issued by Catherine Martin advocating for Eamons proposals.

And Catherine Martins Husband Noel Francis Duffy also issued the same newsletter. Entire back page was the South metro and luas lines in south dublin crayon nonsense the greens used to hustle votes.

AAAAAAAAA

gjim wrote: »

A large 2-track single bore tunnel will only be slightly less than double the diameter of a single track tunnel all things considered. Yes metro cars are a little higher than wider but not enough to compensate for the fact that such a large tunnel generates twice as much spoil as two half-diameter tunnels.

https://www.metrolink.ie/assets/downloads/MetroLink_PR_Design_Development.pdf

Page 23 and 26 they state that the optimised single bore generates 3% less spoil than the equivalent twin bore, while using 29% less concrete.

I'm not really sold on the idea of escape from the front of the trains and along the tracks though from a safety perspective, the elimination of the refuge area seems like a fairly serious oversight as you could end up in a (extremely unlikely) scenario that you had 3 trains end to end, with the middle train completely unable to evacuate.

salmocab

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

And Catherine Martins Husband Noel Francis Duffy also issued the same newsletter. Entire back page was the South metro and luas lines in south dublin crayon nonsense the greens used to hustle votes.

Duffy actually drew that particular piece of nonsense

Pete_Cavan

The type of tunnel(s) for DU will be determined by engineering considerations and the rolling stock. Metrolink has nothing to do with it. Single bore might not even be possible.

marno21

Tender out for multi disciplinary consultants for DART Expansion on the Dublin Coastal (Northern + Southeastern) line

Includes the following:

The project involves trackworks, electrification and resignalling primarily on the Coastal line from Drogheda in the north to Connolly station and from Connolly station to Greystones. The proposed key elements may include:
• Electrification, re-signalling, track and associated civil works to support the projected capacity increase of the Northern Line from Malahide to Drogheda;
• Re-configuring Clongriffin & Howth Junction Station;
• Re-modelling of Drogheda and Fairview Depot and the provision of Battery Electric Multiple Unit (BEMU) charging facilities;
• Turnback Facilities on the Northern & Southern Lines;
• Siding & Stabling facilities;
• Investigate the comparison of a BEMU strategy versus electrification of Northern Line;
• Design an appropriate level of relief infrastructure (structures, civils, signalling, electrification, telecoms, track) in lieu of the increased frequency of level crossing closure on the Southern Line between Greystones & Connolly; and
• Greystones Capacity Improvement including potential 3rd platform.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/165273/1/0

Jammyd

marno21 wrote: »

Tender out for multi disciplinary consultants for DART Expansion on the Dublin Coastal (Northern + Southeastern) line

Includes the following:



https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/165273/1/0

Hi Marno - stupid question but is the Maynooth / M3 line electrification being done as a seperate tender / project? I was of the understanding the Dart expansion was announced as one project - (Vested interest on my part as I'm beside Hansfield station and can't wait to get an actual decent train service vs the joke schedule we have at present)

marno21

Jammyd wrote: »

Hi Marno - stupid question but is the Maynooth / M3 line electrification being done as a seperate tender / project? I was of the understanding the Dart expansion was announced as one project - (Vested interest on my part as I'm beside Hansfield station and can't wait to get an actual decent train service vs the joke schedule we have at present)

The project has been split into three separate sections being advanced through design and planning individually at least:

Maynooth/M3 Parkway + City Centre
Hazelhatch/Kildare Line
Drogheda-Greystones

The Maynooth is the most advanced, IE started pre railway order application consultations with An Bord Pleanala in February

CatInABox

Seems like they're definitely going to have a passing loop between Howth Junction and Clongriffin.

Kinda shocked that they're considering not electrifying the northern line. Very shocked in fact.

Jammyd

marno21 wrote: »

The project has been split into three separate sections being advanced through design and planning individually at least:

Maynooth/M3 Parkway + City Centre
Hazelhatch/Kildare Line
Drogheda-Greystones

The Maynooth is the most advanced, IE started pre railway order application consultations with An Bord Pleanala in February

Cheers Marno - hopefully we don't see any of these projects de-railed (excuse the pun) because of the current situation

AAAAAAAAA

CatInABox wrote: »

Kinda shocked that they're considering not electrifying the northern line. Very shocked in fact.

" Electrification, re-signalling, track and associated civil works to support the projected capacity increase of the Northern Line from Malahide to Drogheda;"

reads to me like they're electrifying it

loyatemu

sounds like they're keeping their options open, possibly electrify part of it and use battery power for the rest (they're unlikely to be running a Dart every 10 mins to Drogheda).

also, on a selfish level:

• Greystones Capacity Improvement including potential 3rd platform.

woot! - first time I've seen the Greystones proposals officially rolled into Dart Expansion.

CatInABox

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

" Electrification, re-signalling, track and associated civil works to support the projected capacity increase of the Northern Line from Malahide to Drogheda;"

reads to me like they're electrifying it

It's this part I'd be concerned about:

"Investigate the comparison of a BEMU strategy versus electrification of Northern Line"

Jamie2k9

CatInABox wrote: »

It's this part I'd be concerned about:

"Investigate the comparison of a BEMU strategy versus electrification of Northern Line"

The problem if they electrify the current two lines it will cause problems long term because for example most rail routes use AC not DC overhead lines so it would be worth considering if BEMU is best for now.

roadmaster

I Know this probably the wrong place to ask but long term I would presume the entire Irish Rail network will be electrified, so will that mean overhead lines on the entire network or by the time we go to electrify the national network will technology have moved on that a battery operated train will make it from Dublin to Cork?

Jamie2k9

roadmaster wrote: »

I Know this probably the wrong place to ask but long term I would presume the entire Irish Rail network will be electrified, so will that mean overhead lines on the entire network or by the time we go to electrify the national network will technology have moved on that a battery operated train will make it from Dublin to Cork?

Unlikely to be fully electrified ever, Dublin-Cork/Belfast/Galway and right now I would expect Bi-Mode for other branches.

donvito99

What will further electrification look like? Does the existing 1500DC between Malahide and Connolly offer a serious problem to Northern, Maynooth and Hazelhatch electrification?

Idbatterim

roadmaster wrote: »

I Know this probably the wrong place to ask but long term I would presume the entire Irish Rail network will be electrified, so will that mean overhead lines on the entire network or by the time we go to electrify the national network will technology have moved on that a battery operated train will make it from Dublin to Cork?

the timelines here are so ridiculous, that I think you are right, I would expect to battery technology to improve to such an extent, that they will just be fully battery operated trains...

Sam Russell

Idbatterim wrote: »

the timelines here are so ridiculous, that I think you are right, I would expect to battery technology to improve to such an extent, that they will just be fully battery operated trains...

There are a number of options.

1. Battery only - requires recharging options which takes time.

2. Battery/OH electric. Possible for northern line using Dart OH which could also recharge the batteries. (40 km range needed and recharge before return or 80 km range).

3. diesel/OH - like the FLIRT trains. The diesel part can be removed later if it is not required.

4. AC OH/DC OH - use AC for the north of Malahide and Dart DC for south of Malahide.

I am sure there are other possibilities. The big question is whether they will go AC or DC north of Malahide. Malahide is 12 km to Connolly, Drogheda is 40 km north of Malahide. If they go AC then there are fewer substations, so lower cost, but trains are more expensive. They would need AC to go to Cork or Belfast.

antimatterx

It's incredible how old this thread is!

Idbatterim

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are a number of options.

1. Battery only - requires recharging options which takes time.

2. Battery/OH electric. Possible for northern line using Dart OH which could also recharge the batteries. (40 km range needed and recharge before return or 80 km range).

3. diesel/OH - like the FLIRT trains. The diesel part can be removed later if it is not required.

4. AC OH/DC OH - use AC for the north of Malahide and Dart DC for south of Malahide.

I am sure there are other possibilities. The big question is whether they will go AC or DC north of Malahide. Malahide is 12 km to Connolly, Drogheda is 40 km north of Malahide. If they go AC then there are fewer substations, so lower cost, but trains are more expensive. They would need AC to go to Cork or Belfast.

then you would assume they would go AC on northern line right?

Tomrota

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

" Electrification, re-signalling, track and associated civil works to support the projected capacity increase of the Northern Line from Malahide to Drogheda;"

reads to me like they're electrifying it

Mad that they are electrifying all the way to Drogheda, and won’t even electrify into County Kildare on the Kildare line. Electrification ends at Hazelhatch, Co. Dublin. Most short sighted thinking I’ve ever seen.

BonnieSituation

Tomrota wrote: »

Mad that they are electrifying all the way to Drogheda, and won’t even electrify into County Kildare on the Kildare line. Electrification ends at Hazelhatch, Co. Dublin. Most short sighted thinking I’ve ever seen.

Are you sure about that?

I mean, this is Iarnród Éireann we're talking about.

donvito99

Stopping at Hazelhatch isn't that short sighted considering the four tracking ends there. Any you can always extend in future.

Tomrota

donvito99 wrote: »

Stopping at Hazelhatch isn't that short sighted considering the four tracking ends there. Any you can always extend in future.

If it were to be extended in the future, we all know that’s gonna mean 2070+.

Four tracks? Does drogheda and greystones have four tracks? The reason it doesn’t have four tracks is because of their short sightedness and unwillingness to extend the DART any further than Co. Dublin on this line.

marno21

Tomrota wrote: »

If it were to be extended in the future, we all know that’s gonna mean 2070+.

Four tracks? Does drogheda and greystones have four tracks? The reason it doesn’t have four tracks is because of their short sightedness and unwillingness to extend the DART any further than Co. Dublin on this line.

Extending beyond Hazelhatch might be done in conjunction with the DART Underground tunnel.

There are capacity constraints beyond Heuston that may make expanding too far out into Kildare an issue for the meantime.

The true power of DART to Kildare is only unleashed post DU anyway.

donvito99

Tomrota wrote: »

If it were to be extended in the future, we all know that’s gonna mean 2070+.

Four tracks? Does drogheda and greystones have four tracks? The reason it doesn’t have four tracks is because of their short sightedness and unwillingness to extend the DART any further than Co. Dublin on this line.

It's 20km from Hazelhatch to Glasnevin Junction. It's 12km from Hazelhatch to Naas, another 12 to Newbridge and about 5km more to Kildare. It's not "short sighted" to stop at Hazelhatch, it is a question of money and where it should be spent first.

MJohnston

Tomrota wrote: »

Mad that they are electrifying all the way to Drogheda, and won’t even electrify into County Kildare on the Kildare line. Electrification ends at Hazelhatch, Co. Dublin. Most short sighted thinking I’ve ever seen.

Pedantic maybe, but the Kildare line passes through Co Kildare before reaching Hazelhatch.

Dats me

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The problem if they electrify the current two lines it will cause problems long term because for example most rail routes use AC not DC overhead lines so it would be worth considering if BEMU is best for now.

Exactly it is good that IE are actually considering the long term implications