DART+ (DART Expansion)

cgcsb

roadmaster wrote: »

I Know this probably the wrong place to ask but long term I would presume the entire Irish Rail network will be electrified, so will that mean overhead lines on the entire network or by the time we go to electrify the national network will technology have moved on that a battery operated train will make it from Dublin to Cork?

I doubt we'll see fully electric trains arriving into Westport within our lives. Even on mainland Europe the lesser used lines are still diesel and we're about 60 or 70 years behind them.

Sam Russell

cgcsb wrote: »

I doubt we'll see fully electric trains arriving into Westport within our lives. Even on mainland Europe the lesser used lines are still diesel and we're about 60 or 70 years behind them.

If only we could wind the clock back 60 or seventy years and still have the trains and trams we had then.

spacetweek

Sam Russell wrote: »

If only we could wind the clock back 60 or seventy years and still have the trains and trams we had then.

Most of them were very lightly used and performed poorly compared to other modes.

Sam Russell

spacetweek wrote: »

Most of them were very lightly used and performed poorly compared to other modes.

Yes, but it is easier to improve an existing service than to build from scatch. At least the alignments would be intact.

Grandeeod

spacetweek wrote: »

Most of them were very lightly used and performed poorly compared to other modes.

That was then. This is now. The bus and car are no longer viable solutions on their own

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes, but it is easier to improve an existing service than to build from scatch. At least the alignments would be intact.

Correct. Take Riga in Latvia as a small example. An extensive tram system. Ancient trams that were retrofitted and over the last few years there's been a continuing roll out of modern luas like trams.

spacetweek

Grandeeod wrote: »

Correct. Take Riga in Latvia as a small example. An extensive tram system. Ancient trams that were retrofitted and over the last few years there's been a continuing roll out of modern luas like trams.

How did they prevent the system from becoming swamped by car traffic, as happened in most developed countries after the war? I've been to Riga and I remember the trams are often in the middle of the road.

donvito99

spacetweek wrote: »

How did they prevent the system from becoming swamped by car traffic, as happened in most developed countries after the war? I've been to Riga and I remember the trams are often in the middle of the road.

Well Latvia was eastern block and presumably didn't suffer from an explosion of car ownership in the same way we did? Also I have it in my mind that lots of these eastern block cities have extensive tramways running down wide, modern/historical boulevards for the most part, unlike Dublin?

BonnieSituation

Latvia didn't likely have the likes of Todd Andrews and his ilk though.

We know how to breed short-sighted giants don't we.

Grandeeod

spacetweek wrote: »

How did they prevent the system from becoming swamped by car traffic, as happened in most developed countries after the war? I've been to Riga and I remember the trams are often in the middle of the road.

donvito99 wrote: »

Well Latvia was eastern block and presumably didn't suffer from an explosion of car ownership in the same way we did? Also I have it in my mind that lots of these eastern block cities have extensive tramways running down wide, modern/historical boulevards for the most part, unlike Dublin?

When Ireland abandoned its tram systems, it wasn't an explosion in car ownership that caused it. It was the move to bus transport. We simply followed the UK lead. Somehow in cities like Riga, the tram remained. Our culling of our tram network in Dublin and replacing it by bus, allowed the streets/roads to be taken over by the car. Had the trams remained we would have adapted around them and they would still be providing vital PT now with less cars on the roads and the potential for suitable expansion.

Sam Russell

Grandeeod wrote: »

When Ireland abandoned its tram systems, it wasn't an explosion in car ownership that caused it. It was the move to bus transport. We simply followed the UK lead. Somehow in cities like Riga, the tram remained. Our culling of our tram network in Dublin and replacing it by bus, allowed the streets/roads to be taken over by the car. Had the trams remained we would have adapted around them and they would still be providing vital PT now with less cars on the roads and the potential for suitable expansion.

We also got rid of CIE's horses, and their steam engines around the same time (1950s). Plus a steady closing of the state's railway lines over the years since the foundation of the state, but more so since CIE got control of them.

I wonder how that was achieved? Was it the 'modern' thing to do?

Jamie2k9

Tomrota wrote: »

Mad that they are electrifying all the way to Drogheda, and won’t even electrify into County Kildare on the Kildare line. Electrification ends at Hazelhatch, Co. Dublin. Most short sighted thinking I’ve ever seen.

Two points:
* Electrified beyond Malahide has politics involved and still lost FG seats but its a more urgent priority after Maynooth/M3.

* Going beyond Hazelhatch to Kildare will not deliver any benefit for passengers. Why do you think it should be electrified?

MJohnston

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

* Going beyond Hazelhatch to Kildare will not deliver any benefit for passengers. Why do you think it should be electrified?

In fairness, if distance wasn't such an issue, Naas would be an excellent commuter town to loop into the DART system.

MJohnston

Actually, to correct myself, I don't think it's distance that's the issue so much as it being a long additional distance through nothing but fields before reaching Naas. There are plenty of examples of other cities with DART-like systems that go much further out than 30km from the city centre.

The Mulk

MJohnston wrote: »

Pedantic maybe, but the Kildare line passes through Co Kildare before reaching Hazelhatch.

+1. And the station is called Hazelhatch and Celbridge.
The majority of the site(car park, entrance/exit is in Co. Kildare)

Thrashssacre

Lets built up the land between Hazel hatch and Heuston before we consider moving the dart out even further through fields and having to build more quad track. Rather see urban sprawl kept to a minimum, a line of semi ds from inchicore far as nass would be a travesty.

BonnieSituation

That makes no sense.

Having the development before the transportation is WHY we have a clogged city that we do.

Tomrota

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Lets built up the land between Hazel hatch and Heuston before we consider moving the dart out even further through fields and having to build more quad track. Rather see urban sprawl kept to a minimum, a line of semi ds from inchicore far as nass would be a travesty.

That doesn’t make sense. Naas has registered more housing developments than any other postal area in the country in 2019. The area has at least 35k people (Sallins, Kill, Johnstown, etc.) and the people need transport. Why do you think the N7 is there with 3 lanes? If a town needs 3 lanes, it definitely needs frequent public transport which it doesn’t have. Why should they build it out to Drogheda which is 50km from the city instead of Naas which is 28km from the city, or Newbridge which has a huge Population too. I’m pointing out the fact that this is completely political. If Naas/Newbridge voted for Fine Gael politicians, maybe they’d have a chance at public transport.

LeinsterDub

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Lets built up the land between Hazel hatch and Heuston before we consider moving the dart out even further through fields and having to build more quad track. Rather see urban sprawl kept to a minimum, a line of semi ds from inchicore far as nass would be a travesty.

The sprawl has already occured now it has to be served

The Mulk

Tomrota wrote: »

That doesn’t make sense. Naas has registered more housing developments than any other postal area in the country in 2019. The area has at least 35k people (Sallins, Kill, Johnstown, etc.) and the people need transport. Why do you think the N7 is there with 3 lanes? If a town needs 3 lanes, it definitely needs frequent public transport which it doesn’t have. Why should they build it out to Drogheda which is 50km from the city instead of Naas which is 28km from the city, or Newbridge which has a huge Population too. I’m pointing out the fact that this is completely political. If Naas/Newbridge voted for Fine Gael politicians, maybe they’d have a chance at public transport.

I think it's more the fact that the Sallins/Naas station is in the wrong location to adequately cope with increased demand.
If it was closer to the centre of Naas or had better scope for parking i think they'd look at it in the longer term.
Any of my family in Naas and Kill use the bus as the station is too inaccessible.

BonnieSituation

The Mulk wrote: »

I think it's more the fact that the Sallins/Naas station is in the wrong location to adequately cope with increased demand.
If it was closer to the centre of Naas or had better scope for parking i think they'd look at it in the longer term.
Any of my family in Naas and Kill use the bus as the station is too inaccessible.

Well, the old Naas Station is now a Tesco.

If Naas had a central station it would be fine commute to Dublin. The trip from Sallins to Heuston and subsequently to Pearse was a grand jaunt when I had to do it.

Jamie2k9

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That makes no sense.

Having the development before the transportation is WHY we have a clogged city that we do.

There is currently 2 hourly services one to Heuston and one to Grand Canal Dock along this line with no houses. In contrast Maynooth has 2 hourly service.

There is no reason housing development shouldn't take place regardless if this line is electrified or not. Its got the potential for a 10 minute service if required splitting between Heuston and Docklands/Connolly if even needed (which it won't).

In fairness, if distance wasn't such an issue, Naas would be an excellent commuter town to loop into the DART system.

Its already linked to DART and that could be increased to an hourly service off peak if required.

I think people need to realise DART is a a "brand" and electrifying will not really change much. I think this is lost of a lot of people.

Going beyond Hazelhatch for example reduces the benefits because station distance changes and most of the benefits of slower acceleration/deceleration on diesel compared to electric no longer apply. Going to Nass under electric power might save 40 seconds but cost a lot. This would not be the case on Maynooth and in time Hazelhatch to Heuston where a freq of 15 minutes is what is envisaged plus the savings of maybe 6-7 minutes on Maynooth and maybe 4 (4 is just a rough estimate).

Then you have to take account of people in Nass/Newbridge/Kildare who get a good selection of non stop services which many prefer instead of stopping commuter services so the net benefit to electrification significantly reduces while the cost increases.

The Mulk

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Well, the old Naas Station is now a Tesco.

If Naas had a central station it would be fine commute to Dublin. The trip from Sallins to Heuston and subsequently to Pearse was a grand jaunt when I had to do it.

I know, i live quite close to Hazelhatch and i think it's a great commute to Connolly (could probably knock a few minutes off this)or even better to Heuston if i need it.

As mentioned above the necessary big spend for minor improvements isn't going to be justified, no matter who's in Govt.

Linking Hazelhatch to Maynooth, via Celbridge is my big dream. I think someone covered it on this thread before

donvito99

The Mulk wrote: »

As mentioned above the necessary big spend for minor improvements isn't going to be justified, no matter who's in Govt.

Linking Hazelhatch to Maynooth, via Celbridge is my big dream. I think someone covered it on this thread before

This would be handy. It would free up lots of paths no doubt between Maynooth and Connolly allowing for a much more frequent service. Sligo and outer Commuter services could run straight into Heuston and benefit from quad tracking. It would have to be the first virgin railway in the history of the State though, and the topography as well as Castletown House limit possible routes a good deal. You're looking at 8-10km of an alignment.

The Mulk

donvito99 wrote: »

This would be handy. It would free up lots of paths no doubt between Maynooth and Connolly allowing for a much more frequent service. Sligo and outer Commuter services could run straight into Heuston and benefit from quad tracking. It would have to be the first virgin railway in the history of the State though, and the topography as well as Castletown House limit possible routes a good deal. You're looking at 8-10km of an alignment.

We can dream

Thrashssacre

When the dart becomes a reality on the Heuston commuter route presumably any portlaoise carlow services will go non stop from Hazel hatch and remain on the fast up and down lines?

Tomrota

The Mulk wrote: »

I think it's more the fact that the Sallins/Naas station is in the wrong location to adequately cope with increased demand.
If it was closer to the centre of Naas or had better scope for parking i think they'd look at it in the longer term.
Any of my family in Naas and Kill use the bus as the station is too inaccessible.

Let’s not talk about bus transport on this corridor, it’s not linked with the LEAP system. For this reason, many use the train station which is in the most unideal place due to lack of access to the station due to no parking and traffic. Also no public transport to the station. The trains that actually go into the city are always overcrowded and have no room to stand (the trains are designed for going down the country, why???).

That’s why my original question as to why it’s going 50km out of its way through empty fields to Drogheda and it is neglecting this major commuter town of Naas which is 28km from the city, and even Newbridge is far closer than Drogheda. We all know that commuter train frequency won’t increase when the DART is brought to Hazelhatch, and if it does it’ll be ever so slightly. Always playing catch up. This is why people want DART.

end of the road

Tomrota wrote: »

The trains that actually go into the city are always overcrowded and have no room to stand (the trains are designed for going down the country, why???).

in short, their maintenence depots are way out of dublin and they have to get trains to and from those depots, + there isn't enough suburban type stock to go around.
it's a well discussed issue and a few of us very much agree with you on the issue.

strassenwo!f

The Mulk wrote: »

Linking Hazelhatch to Maynooth, via Celbridge is my big dream.

I think you're basically right, that it would be nice to see a more rapid connection between Maynooth and Hazelhatch, and between many points in the West of Dublin and East Kildare.

Unfortunately, I can't see it happening, in any rail format, prior to the earlier DART Underground proposal being implemented, in some form.

The only way, in my view, that it could be done, is if it was combined in some way with the earlier, and crazy, metrowest proposal.

Crazy, because it was all about bringing people around the city, rather than into it.

The largest group of people on any bus, tram or train in Dublin, or anywhere, want to get into the city centre. So, the task would be to adjust that metrowest line alignment, or create something broadly along the lines of it, and build a line between the Maynooth line and the Hazelhatch line, allowing both to get directly into Heuston. And, if the tunnel is built, beyond Heuston.

Sigo trains leaving or entering Heuston should not have, or cause, any significant problems going along their two tracks entering or leaving Heuston, under that scenario.

Since a 4-tracked Hazelhatch line will have a huge capacity, accomodating 4-6 Maynooth trains an hour wouldn't be a problem.

Add in another 6-8 trains an hour from a 100,000+ population Tallaght-Clondalkin corridor which Dublin might eventually build, and you are still far from approaching the capacity of the proposed tunnel.

I have been a long proponent of the DART Tunnel. I don't think it would ever be sensible to offer a direct train between Hazelhatch and Maynooth, but The Mulk,to me, it would certainly be sensible to offer a one-change West Dublin interchange at, say, Clondalkin, if Dublin were ever to incorporate those DART Underground and Metrowest ideas.

strassenwo!f

This - feeding both 'Maynooth' line and 'Hazelhatch' line trains into the tunnel - has long seemed to me to be the most effective way to make the DART Underground project work.

You'd start off (obviously, after Maynooth line electrification) with a Northern Line - Hazelhatch line connection via the tunnel, with space to have extra trains terminating in the East of the city (Spencer Dock?) and the West (Heuston), and perhaps even have shuttles connecting those two city locations. Maynooth - Bray/Greystones trains continue running overground.

You'd then create a link between the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines, very broadly along the metrowest alignment - if there was space there for a two-track metro, how much more difficult, or costly, could it be to devise a broadly similar alignment for a two-track rail line? Perhaps starting somewhere around Clonsilla, to also get Dunboyne trains directly into the tunnel.

This would allow some of those slots for those trains previously terminating at Heuston to now become trains to/from Maynooth/Dunboyne, and fulfil some of the functions of the metrowest. It would also allow Sligo trains to now travel Sligo - Heuston, if that is desired, as the volumes on that Maynooth line would still be quite low, and a 4-track Hazelhatch line with proper infrastructure should present no conflict, as the 2-track DART currently does.

In that scenario, most DART services affecting the southside would continue to run between Bray/Greystones and (say) Clonsilla, but some could continue to Maynooth/Dunboyne, and some could terminate in the city.

The next stage would, perhaps, be a Clondalkin - Tallaght alignment, which has 100,000+ potential passengers, feeding into the 'Hazelhatch line.

This would use up another few of the slots previously terminating at Heuston, and there should, with current technology, be around 24-30 slots. Another six (6) perhaps - a train every 10 minutes? This would reduce a City - Tallaght journey to probably under 20 minutes, but it would also perform another function of the metrowest - so a Maynooth to Tallaght journey would involve travel to Fonthill or Parkwest, then one change onto a train going to Tallaght.

Way down the line, you would feed the southside DART into the tunnel mix, and broadly save all the pother of level crossing replacement. Also 6 or so trains per hour, most or all going into the tunnel, should be fine, as a new destination for Tallaght/Hazelhatch/Maynooth/Dunboyne trains, and I reckon this could be done between Grand Canal and Pearse (though, of course, it would be helpful if appropriate arrangements were made at the tunnel design stage, in terms of platforms and local planning permissions, etc.)

I've checked this several times, and there are actually only very few southside DART passengers who cross the river on a daily basis, though more (but still not a majority, I'd say, of northside DART passengers) who cross the river Bringing them into a West-East tunnel arrangement shouldn't present a problem, from what I've seen.

So, broadly speaking, what I think would be best for Dublin would be an arrangement where a rail tunnel is built through the centre linking the east and west parts of the city. The western parts (Maynooth, Hazelhatch, etc.) would be put into it in the west, and the eastern parts would be put into it in the east, probably gradually.

This would fulfil many of the objectives of the metro west, but would also make it easier for designers of north-south metro lines in Dublin to envisage connections with all or most heavy rail lines, as they would then all be more or less in one place.

A very good example of the waste involved in creating such metro-rail connections is being played out, right now, as we write on this thread: the current palaver of trying to engineer a connection between the metrolink and the Maynooth and Dunboyne lines, currently proposed to be at Glasnevin, and also to create a connection with the DART at Tara Street.

Two connections now need to be considered. And, if there were an east-west tunnel linking all heavy rail connections in Dublin, just one.

MJohnston

I sense a disturbance in the force...