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The Chinese Big Lie

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  • #1322
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,291 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    dwayneshintzy wrote: »
    The testing, contract tracing, use of masks, quarantine facilities, etc is very true for Hong Kong. But a more severe lockdown definitely isn't, at least for Hong Kong. Schools have been closed, public parks, etc. But restaurants weren't restricted at all until recently, and are still open with distancing measures in place. The lockdown in HK has been much less severe than in Europe.
    True enough D and the Czech lockdown was also less restrictive than here too for the most part. Like you say strategies like testing, contract tracing, use of masks, quarantine facilities and border controls and cocooning of the vulnerable seem to be the things that actually work the most.

    The only thing we in Ireland have done among those is testing and that has been a farce in many ways. Cocooning has come late to the party. Just look at the toll in old folks homes. Never mind not so long ago a moron in authority saying it was OK to visit your grany in a home. Another moron in authority was telling people to go about as normal if living with a known covid19 contact person because if they didn't have symptoms they weren't infectious. You couldn't make that level of incompetence up. Physical distancing from my experience of it is generally OK, but with too damned many not following it. Who knows how many are actually hand washing properly. We have to accept the morons, the self centred and the self centred morons in our society and allow for them by engaging other actions to minimise their impact.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #1323
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You need to look at the places with low figures and see were they testing. Many weren't as they didn't have the resources or the kits to do so. So the figures are low for that reason. As they get kits their numbers rise.


  • #1324
    the.red.baron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭the.red.baron


    Wibbs wrote: »
    True enough D and the Czech lockdown was also less restrictive than here too for the most part. Like you say strategies like testing, contract tracing, use of masks, quarantine facilities and border controls and cocooning of the vulnerable seem to be the things that actually work the most.

    The only thing we in Ireland have done among those is testing and that has been a farce in many ways. Cocooning has come late to the party. Just look at the toll in old folks homes. Never mind not so long ago a moron in authority saying it was OK to visit your grany in a home. Another moron in authority was telling people to go about as normal if living with a known covid19 contact person because if they didn't have symptoms they weren't infectious. You couldn't make that level of incompetence up. Physical distancing from my experience of it is generally OK, but with too damned many not following it. Who knows how many are actually hand washing properly. We have to accept the morons, the self centred and the self centred morons in our society and allow for them by engaging other actions to minimise their impact.




    how many tests have they done in China? look at their curve makes no sense it isn't like anyone else's


    flatten the curve or stop the curve


  • #1325
    the.red.baron
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭the.red.baron


    beauf wrote: »
    You need to look at the places with low figures and see were they testing. Many weren't as they didn't have the resources or the kits to do so. So the figures are low for that reason. As they get kits their numbers rise.




    mostly where the testing is high the numbers are high


    save SK and well Russia


  • #1326
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    the.red.baron wrote: »
    how many tests have they done in China? look at their curve makes no sense it isn't like anyone else's

    flatten the curve or stop the curve

    They had a much more severe restriction than anywhere else, of course.


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  • #1327
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,461 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I have no problem with numbers being wrong and re-calculated. My problem is when they've been manipulated and there are a in appropriate response as a result.


  • #1328
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    the.red.baron wrote: »
    how long did it take them to lockdown


    2 months? more nov to end of jan



    doesn't make sense


    should have spread all over china

    They had known cases by Dec 31st. It wasn't clear that it was a novel virus until the 26th December. In fact the known cluster was only the wet market then, as they had found nobody outside the market, but they were confining those people anyway.


  • #1329
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    beauf wrote: »
    I have no problem with numbers being wrong and re-calculated. My problem is when they've been manipulated and there are a in appropriate response as a result.

    Theres no evidence they lied, plenty of countries have different recording systems.

    The effort to blame China for a novel virus they informed the W.H.O about in late Dec 2019 is to remove blame from the countries, the UK and the US in particular, who failed to act for months.


  • #1330
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Pure snookered.

    Crypto, the closest you've come to living in Beijing is above a Chinese takeaway in a bedsit.

    far from snookered. Baffled by your posts and how sure you are about something when so horrendously wrong.


  • #1331
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Pure snookered.

    Crypto, the closest you've come to living in Beijing is above a Chinese takeaway in a bedsit.

    far from snookered. Baffled by your posts and how sure you are about something when so horrendously wrong.

    I's quite amazing. I've met plnety like you over the years. Your own medicore experinces of life are how it is and thats it...everyone else is clueless. You are now loking beyond stupid.


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  • #1332
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    this is from the WHO in feb 2020

    http://www.euro.who.int/en/countries/germany/news/news/2020/2/well-prepared-laboratories-are-first-line-of-defence-against-novel-coronavirus-in-europe

    Thanks to China’s swift release of the full virus sequence, the first protocol for diagnostic testing of samples collected from potentially infected patients and their contacts became available in early January. This enabled 31 countries in the Region to rapidly establish testing capacities. WHO also commissioned the manufacturing of test kits for global distribution to the designated 2019-nCoV laboratories. WHO/Europe is facilitating a first round of shipment of 192 kits (containing 100 tests each) to 20 laboratories in the Region. Globally, WHO is making 250 000 tests available to 159 laboratories.

    However the US chose not to use the Chinese protocols and to build their own tests, and was convinced it was all a hoax anyway.

    BUT CHONA OWEN THE WHO, DEY RUN WHO THE CCP COMMIES.


  • #1333
    FVP3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭FVP3


    Yurt! wrote: »
    Pure snookered.

    Crypto, the closest you've come to living in Beijing is above a Chinese takeaway in a bedsit.

    Have you explained how this non lab manufactured virus got into the Wuhan lab , and didn't do any damage in the wild until it was released from the lab?

    Hows that work?


  • #1334
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    beauf wrote: »
    I have no problem with numbers being wrong and re-calculated. My problem is when they've been manipulated and there are a in appropriate response as a result.

    Yes

    From Burns

    Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we venture to deceive


  • #1335
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    Yurt! wrote: »
    I wasn't referring to the Sanlitun / Haidian laowai scene at all. That's not my jam either. I just know a Walter Mitty when I see one. And crypto is a Walter Mitty.

    He's abusing people throughout the whole thread, and his understanding of the country is so superficial it's next to impossible he's been there for any significant period.

    Gated communities and private jets my backside. He's a fantasist.

    Who said private jets? Have I hopped across many cites in China on planes..yes, conferences and trade events right across the land. In the words of Trump, "many many cities, loads of cities, nobody seen more cities then me, I am the best at cities, I do the best cities"

    Gated communities, yes, there is plenty. And if you are not aware of such places then it is you who is a spoofer.


  • #1336
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    thebaz wrote: »
    Do you not think Chinese numbers, regardless of review, look suspiciously low, less than Belgium - just a bit above New Jersey - and these are not worst hit regions worldwide

    China poplulation 1.4 Billiion
    Belgium population 11.5 Million
    New Jersey population 8.5

    How very simplistic...almost child like.

    Liaoning in China must be making up figures.
    Vietnam not in China, closer to Wuhan. Numbers must be grand.


  • #1337
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    the.red.baron wrote: »
    how long did it take them to lockdown


    2 months? more nov to end of jan



    doesn't make sense


    should have spread all over china

    But it clearly didn't...clearly


  • #1338
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    Who said private jets? Have I hopped across many cites in China on planes..yes, conferences and trade events right across the land. In the words of Trump, "many many cities, loads of cities, nobody seen more cities then me, I am the best at cities, I do the best cities"

    Gated communities, yes, there is plenty. And if you are not aware of such places then it is you who is a spoofer.

    Gated communities are the general norm for apartment blocks. My own apartment block has 6 towers, surrounded by a 6 foot wall, and two gates, constantly monitored by security and cameras. The district I live in has 12 similar gated communities, but also has the more traditional open planned "houses" for the low end workers.

    Personally, I wouldn't be jumping to say that either of you haven't spent time in China. The extent of those experiences are different for every expat.

    Stick to the content of the posts would be my suggestion to both posters. I don't really see why either of you have to be spoofing. You've both come out with appropriate insights into Chinese culture, which is harder to understand or harder to find material online to use.


  • #1339
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Were you in Beijing before or after your time in Iraq.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106690977

    By the way, how did you get on suing the landlord for slander after he refused you service.

    He obviously did not know who he was dealing with :D

    Reaad it again. Iraq was used as an example of a place. It was selected on purpose for its randomness.


  • #1340
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    Who said private jets? Have I hopped across many cites in China on planes..yes, conferences and trade events right across the land. In the words of Trump, "many many cities, loads of cities, nobody seen more cities then me, I am the best at cities, I do the best cities"

    Gated communities, yes, there is plenty. And if you are not aware of such places then it is you who is a spoofer.

    Brilliant !!

    You previously stated in 2018 -

    Oh of interest Would discussing your work with your other half rack people off at the bar...if said work was uk military linked / contacrtor etc..?

    Are British intelligence aware that a senior military contractor is jetting here there and everywhere in China at trade shows?

    Your past posts are a mine of information.


  • #1341
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Were you in Beijing before or after your time in Iraq.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=106690977

    By the way, how did you get on suing the landlord for slander after he refused you service.

    He obviously did not know who he was dealing with :D

    For the record, I can go to the place when ever i like now. Nowt more was said as I sense they do acknowledge that I was not whoever they had me confused with.


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  • #1342
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    Reaad it again. Iraq was used as an example of a place. It was selected on purpose for its randomness.

    Ok so you were not in Iraq.
    Did spell checker kick in and what you really meant was Ibiza?


  • #1343
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Brilliant !!

    You previously stated in 2018 -

    Oh of interest Would discussing your work with your other half rack people off at the bar...if said work was uk military linked / contacrtor etc..?

    Are British intelligence aware that a senior military contractor is jetting here there and everywhere in China at trade shows?

    Your past posts are a mine of information.

    Read it again.

    The military uses countless contractors who work both on defense and on energy and even construction projects. Some even have a presence in Ireland on some pharma jobs. Crossover of specialist workers for such contractors across all those aspects of the industry is frightfully common.

    You are not very good at this now are you????


  • #1344
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Ok so you were not in Iraq.
    Did spell checker kick in and what you really meant was Ibiza?

    It's a phone. I don't pick holes in spelling when losing arguments, you do.


  • #1345
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    Read it again.

    The military uses countless contractors who work both on defense and on energy and even construction projects. Some even have a presence in Ireland on some pharma jobs. Crossover of specialist workers for such contractors across all those aspects of the industry is frightfully common.

    You are not very good at this now are you????

    Ok so admit that you haven't been to Iraq and you don't work for the uk military.

    I cannot imagine how other people could possibly think that you are a fantasist.


  • #1346
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    bob mcbob wrote: »
    Ok so admit that you haven't been to Iraq and you don't work for the uk military.

    I cannot imagine how other people could possibly think that you are a fantasist.

    I want you to read the posts. Thats what i would like you to do.

    Simple task.


  • #1347
    2u2me
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭2u2me


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Seriously... what are you basing all these assumptions on? You've made a variety of statements about China/Chinese people within the last few pages, which don't even come close to any of my experiences of them. I've lived in six different cites, traveled extensively throughout China, have taught thousands of Chinese students at third level... and your assumptions simply don't present themselves as reality.

    Third, most Chinese people wouldn't have an opinion (at all) about organ harvesting because it doesn't affect them. Having an opinion can be dangerous, and their society is based on the belief that it's basically safer not to have opinions. Having an opinion means taking responsibility for something. Most Chinese will avoid that, like the plague.

    You basically answer your own question here. I'm applying not a western morality but a universal morality. Can you find me a person who would agree with harvesting organs of prisoners(who probably didn't consent and perhaps met their end soley for their organs)
    I don't know why you insist in calling things western values.
    I have family that are Chinese, I've learned many things about China. I know Chinese people are not brutal dog burning folk like some like to make out. I also know no other country in the world engages in this brutal practise in the way that China does on a systematic level.

    Of course it's hidden; the more people that know about it the more unacceptable it would become. A state can not function like this. You are already seeing cracks in the system, they will only become larger.
    Wrong guy? What's that mean?

    What happens when a government official takes you the wrong way when he's drunk in a bar. Can you not even fathom a circumstance where you cannot wrangle yourself out of trouble that was not your fault? There are many innocent people in Chinese prisons. "No dumb foreigner should have known better" is not always the right answer. Are you saying that's always the right answer?
    Trust in the Chinese government is actually quite high depending on what section of society you're talking about. But it fits the dialogue to suggest that Chinese people are in terror of their government. The majority are not.[...]
    Ok. What are you basing this on? What evidence do you have that so few Chinese people trust their government?
    Your strawmanning me here. Just because they're not in terror doesn't mean they don't trust their government. Trust is important in a government that harvest their prisoners organs wouldn't you say?
    The Chinese are also unhappy with the level of corruption they see. Last year, 53% said corrupt officials were a very big problem. And this year, 38% say that giving bribes is important for getting ahead in life, considerably higher than the global median of 16%
    source
    You'll struggle to find people outside of western countries who will genuinely care about it. Anyway, I've no idea why you have such a hard on about organ harvesting.
    You're right. I've seen it for years. The same people that are usually so vocal about these things are more worried about hurting China's feelings.
    This is the issue here. It's no hard on at all. Its basic human decency. A high moral value that transcends 'western' or 'chinese' the ability of Lincoln to look at himself in his age and say "slavery is wrong" the ability of us in this age to look at prisoners having their organs harvested and saying "this is wrong".
    We were talking about "universal values" and most western values are not universal.
    Welll which countries engage in the practice of harvesting prisoners for their organs? I know of one.
    I think rather than argue the points made, you seek to expand the discussion. You did it with organ harvesting when I disagreed with you. Then you did it again with slavery. Each time, I disagree with you, you expand the scope of the discussion, with examples that you believe I can't argue against... and yet, each time you show a very limited appreciation of the topics you introduce.

    I am constantly trying to zero in on the discussion. Here it is as plainly as I can put it. I don't think China has a future as a Country until it faces up to the terrible human atrocities that it's committing.
    The reason I bring up slavery is to show that even in a world where something is 'accepted' 'normal' it can change. People can objectively look at something and say 'that is wrong'


  • #1348
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 970 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    I want you to read the posts. Thats what i would like you to do.

    Simple task.

    I read a lot of your posts from that thread and it is hilarious

    Some of the gems were

    (when talking about the recording capability of your watch) No it is on my wrist. It is also a 4g phone so it pick up both parties very clearly. Great price of kit.

    I’d say I pay a company to leaflet every house in the neighborhood explaining the situation and calling on them to pony up with when we know doesn’t exist or come clean and apologies.

    No drawn queen here. I am just not Mondeo man who has accepted his place to be walked on by low brow land lords.

    Society needs to take the power from these publicans and make they as accountable as any shop keeping. They are basically just a glorified centra manager. People have a duty..all of us . To drive this shift and clip their wings to the level of all other shop keepers

    Do have a blog or something. I am a bit bored at the moment and could really do with a good laugh.


  • #1349
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,722 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    cryptocurrency wrote: »
    All of SE and E Asia. They get completely snookered.

    Hmm.. the Chinese mask is slipping a little Crypto. We see now that more deaths are being 'discovered'.

    Perfectly logical for the state authorities there to 'manage' this situation. Never mind the world, they want to keep control over their own citizens as well.

    But they're being caught out now as the rest of the world has seen how this virus develops and they're snookered by their own actions. Once you tell a lie, you have to keep backing it up with more lies. Until eventually it's just ridiculous.


  • #1350
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 16,208 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    2u2me wrote: »
    You basically answer your own question here. I'm applying not a western morality but a universal morality. Can you find me a person who would agree with harvesting organs of prisoners(who probably didn't consent and perhaps met their end soley for their organs)
    I don't know why you insist in calling things western values.

    Because the perception on the value of life, freedom, etc are not universal. They're based on western morality. If you don't know what I mean by this, then I suspect you need to spend more time in non-western nations.

    And I've already answered about organ harvesting.
    I have family that are Chinese, I've learned many things about China. I know Chinese people are not brutal dog burning folk like some like to make out. I also know no other country in the world engages in this brutal practise in the way that China does on a systematic level.

    Systematic level? Which? Burning dogs or organ harvesting? Both of which are not everywhere in China...
    Of course it's hidden; the more people that know about it the more unacceptable it would become. A state can not function like this. You are already seeing cracks in the system, they will only become larger.

    Nope. I haven't noticed any cracks in the system, except for the cracks that were there traditionally... and those cracks won't change anything. As for being hidden, for all your contact with some Chinese people, you obviously don't understand mainstream Chinese culture...
    What happens when a government official takes you the wrong way when he's drunk in a bar. Can you not even fathom a circumstance where you cannot wrangle yourself out of trouble that was not your fault? There are many innocent people in Chinese prisons. "No dumb foreigner should have known better" is not always the right answer. Are you saying that's always the right answer?

    Well... first, we're talking about foreigners... so don't expand it beyond that without telling me. Second, there are many methods to help another person to save face... and third, while China is a police state, there are many rules both official and unofficial which limit the power of minor officials.

    Now if I met the president and offended him... yeah, I'd be screwed.. but for the most part, few foreigners are going to be meeting those at that level of influence. For example, I know the chief of police for Xi'an, and the Governor for Xi'an. Powerful people but still limited in what they can do with that power... especially when it comes to foreigners.
    Your strawmanning me here. Just because they're not in terror doesn't mean they don't trust their government. Trust is important in a government that harvest their prisoners organs wouldn't you say?

    I'm not the one "strawmanning" here.

    You've just given me a link about corruption.. very different issue... and Chinese culture by its nature, on all levels, is extremely corrupt.

    you're jumping topics again.
    You're right. I've seen it for years. The same people that are usually so vocal about these things are more worried about hurting China's feelings.
    This is the issue here. It's no hard on at all. Its basic human decency. A high moral value that transcends 'western' or 'chinese' the ability of Lincoln to look at himself in his age and say "slavery is wrong" the ability of us in this age to look at prisoners having their organs harvested and saying "this is wrong".

    And you're doing it again. Jumping topic when faced with resistance.. and repeating points that were addressed earlier. I'm not following you through a maze of repeated points.
    Welll which countries engage in the practice of harvesting prisoners for their organs? I know of one.

    So what? I mean it. You keep returning to it, like it means something significant, and yet, you've failed to link it to anything significant.
    I am constantly trying to zero in on the discussion. Here it is as plainly as I can put it. I don't think China has a future as a Country until it faces up to the terrible human atrocities that it's committing.

    Fair enough. You have your opinion... I disagree with you completely.

    (While I initially engaged the discussion, I have little interest in chasing you around, and avoiding repeating myself over the same points, which you are simply rephrasing a different way)
    People can objectively look at something and say 'that is wrong'. .

    They always could.


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  • #1351
    cryptocurrency
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,650 ✭✭✭cryptocurrency


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Hmm.. the Chinese mask is slipping a little Crypto. We see now that more deaths are being 'discovered'.

    Perfectly logical for the state authorities there to 'manage' this situation. Never mind the world, they want to keep control over their own citizens as well.

    But they're being caught out now as the rest of the world has seen how this virus develops and they're snookered by their own actions. Once you tell a lie, you have to keep backing it up with more lies. Until eventually it's just ridiculous.

    what next? all the nations of the world outside of europe to go "hands up, fair cop"


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