Is it just me or have SF vanished?

Runaways · 03-04-2020 11:28AM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Maybe you can confirm if the covid payment is open to self employed?

My brother, two cousins and two mates all self employed and applied and told they weren’t eligible. I can give you their numbers maybe you can advise them what they did wrong on the form perhaps?

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 11:30AM

blackwhite wrote: »

Oversimplified to the point of giving the impression that there was no in-country entities, which was incorrect.

So you are saying that what the EU said in a published document is 'incorrect'

That's all I asked.

I have absolutely no problem deffering to source material. I also have no problem saying I don't understand the detail of the source material.

So, I have to take what you say in good faith. You are saying you are right and the EU is incorrect in it's press release.

Until somebody more knowledgeable than you disputes this, I withdraw my view. That ok?

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 11:32AM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Yeah but your assumption It appears is Apple will want to drop the case
As the case would go on even if the Irish government dropped it
That's just stupid

Where did I say 'Apple would want to withdraw the case'?

I did ask would Apple continue if Ireland dropped it's appeal? I don't know if they would or not.

03-04-2020 11:33AM

Anyone hear Pearse Doherty say on RTE radio he wishes Simon Harris well and that he is doing a good job.

blackwhite · 03-04-2020 11:33AM

Runaways wrote: »

My brother, two cousins and two mates all self employed and applied and told they weren’t eligible. I can give you their numbers maybe you can advise them what they did wrong on the form perhaps?

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/eca524-covid-19-information-for-employees/

If you have lost your job due to COVID-19 you can apply for the COVID-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment. You can apply for this whether you are an employee or if you are self-employed.

Did they apply for the correct thing? Details, and the link to apply, are all on the Govt websites.

The €350 enhanced welfare payment applies to self-employed people.

The Temporary COVID-19 Wage Subsidy Scheme - paid by employers - is only available to employees. If you work for yourself then you'd need to be set as a limited company and paid a regular wage to be able to use the subsidy scheme.

BarryD2 · 03-04-2020 11:37AM

mariaalice wrote: »

Anyone hear Pearse Doherty say on RTE radio he wishes Simon Harris well and that he is doing a good job.

That'd be putting a spin on it. At best, whatever he had to say on Simon Harris had to be dragged from his mealy mouth!

Another generic SF interview - don't forget us!!!!!!!!

aido79 · 03-04-2020 11:40AM

Runaways wrote: »

It really wasn’t who he was talking about. He has form. Let’s not pretend he doesn’t.
The ‘welfare cheats cheat us all’ stunt if you’re in doubt.

Nicely dodged.

Ballso · 03-04-2020 11:40AM

Runaways wrote: »

My brother, two cousins and two mates all self employed and applied and told they weren’t eligible. I can give you their numbers maybe you can advise them what they did wrong on the form perhaps?

I hope they are not taking advice from the likes of you on this, you are more interested in being outraged on the internet than engaging with reality.

Self employed people are eligible.

blackwhite · 03-04-2020 11:42AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So you are saying that what the EU said in a published document is 'incorrect'

That's all I asked.

I have absolutely no problem deffering to source material. I also have no problem saying I don't understand the detail of the source material.

So, I have to take what you say in good faith. You are saying you are right and the EU is incorrect in it's press release.

Until somebody more knowledgeable than you disputes this, I withdraw my view. That ok?

The EU report is correct - the press release by an individual EU Commissioner - who is trying to push a wider agenda on Corporation Tax reform and BEPS - is grossly simplified to try and get the general public to jump to incorrect conclusions (just like you have done). The cash flows to ASI, so they ultimately benefit form each individual sale. But it leaves out the fact that there's in-country sales companies (whether Apple subsidiaries or 3rd party) that actually have the legal sale to the end-user.

We can see again that you try to deflect away from the source material to muddy the waters. I'm not saying that "I" am right - I'm saying that the actual EU report is correct (you know - given that it's the official report and all :rolleyes:) and that your uninformed interpretation of the press statement by an EU Commissioner is incorrect.

Repeatedly trying the "appeal to authority" fallacy falls over when the actual source material is there for all to see

Runaways · 03-04-2020 11:42AM

blackwhite wrote: »

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/eca524-covid-19-information-for-employees/

Did they apply for the correct thing? Details, and the link to apply, are all on the Govt websites.

The €350 enhanced welfare payment applies to self-employed people.

The Temporary COVID-19 Wage Subsidy Scheme - paid by employers - is only available to employees. If you work for yourself then you'd need to be set as a limited company and paid a regular wage to be able to use the subsidy scheme.

I will send this on thanks. There’s despair in the ranks right now

NIMAN · 03-04-2020 11:42AM

I see SF are just like the other parties in getting their folk new jobs when the electorate have rejected them.

In last election, Derrys Elisha McCallion 2as roundly rejected by the people.

But she was a bright new prospect for the party, often seen outside No10 and front and centre in photo ops, so she couldn't be lost.

So into the Seanad you go.

blanch152 · 03-04-2020 11:43AM

Runaways wrote: »

My brother, two cousins and two mates all self employed and applied and told they weren’t eligible. I can give you their numbers maybe you can advise them what they did wrong on the form perhaps?

Presumably because they haven't ceased trading.

https://www.gov.ie/en/service/be74d3-covid-19-pandemic-unemployment-payment/#how-to-qualify

"You can apply for the new COVID-19 Pandemic Unemployment Payment if you:

are aged between 18 and 66 years old and
live in the Republic of Ireland and
have lost your job due to the COVID-19 pandemic or
if you are self-employed and have ceased trading due to the pandemic"

Of course there may be other cases where people were self-employed and not declaring any or little income to revenue for the last few years - they wouldn't qualify.

Runaways · 03-04-2020 11:44AM

aido79 wrote: »

Nicely dodged.

Sooo Leo didn’t run a misleading campaign about welfare cheats. We imagined it all.
A cunning shinner smear campaign so it was

Those Wiley republicans out to besmirch our dear leader. How dare they

Runaways · 03-04-2020 11:45AM

Ballso wrote: »

I hope they are not taking advice from the likes of you on this, you are more interested in being outraged on the internet than engaging with reality.

Self employed people are eligible.

‘The likes of you’ ?

Gas

Ballso · 03-04-2020 11:48AM

Runaways wrote: »

‘The likes of you’ ?

Gas

Yeah, the likes of you. People who offer nothing but endless mouthy empty-headed criticism at everyone who don't fit squarely into your simplistic political agenda. Your stupid assumptions on this point nicely illustrate your inability to actually engage with facts instead of wailing about how terrible everything is. You are the Sinn Fein archetype

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 11:49AM

blackwhite wrote: »

The EU report is correct - the press release by an individual EU Commissioner - who is trying to push a wider agenda on Corporation Tax reform and BEPS - is grossly simplified to try and get the general public to jump to incorrect conclusions (just like you have done). The cash flows to ASI, so they ultimately benefit form each individual sale. But it leaves out the fact that there's in-country sales companies (whether Apple subsidiaries or 3rd party) that actually have the legal sale to the end-user.

We can see again that you try to deflect away from the source material to muddy the waters. I'm not saying that "I" am right - I'm saying that the actual EU report is correct (you know - given that it's the official report and all :rolleyes:) and that your uninformed interpretation of the press statement by an EU Commissioner is incorrect.

Repeatedly trying the "appeal to authority" fallacy falls over when the actual source material is there for all to see

I didn't try to deflect away from it. I have freely said that I don't understand the detail of it, not being an expert in that field.

So in your opinion is it a cut and dried case - the appeal?

aido79 · 03-04-2020 11:51AM

Runaways wrote: »

Sooo Leo didn’t run a misleading campaign about welfare cheats. We imagined it all.
A cunning shinner smear campaign so it was

Those Wiley republicans out to besmirch our dear leader. How dare they

I don't really know what campaign you're talking about to be honest. Can you elaborate?

I was referring to your rant where you said this "he doesn’t even realize he’s admitting people aren’t being paid enough never mind the minimum wage bracket."

What do you think the minimum wage under a SF government woul be for someone who only works 20 hours a week?

Mortelaro · 03-04-2020 11:53AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where did I say 'Apple would want to withdraw the case'?

I did ask would Apple continue if Ireland dropped it's appeal? I don't know if they would or not.

Yours and Sinn Féins earlier ignorance that Ireland dropping the case would mean Ireland gets the money implied it...

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 11:55AM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Yours and Sinn Féins earlier ignorance that Ireland dropping the case would mean Ireland gets the money implied it...

I don't think anyone has addressed what happens if Ireland drops it's appeal.

Nor what the get-out clauses of the Escrow agreement say.

We have established that the EU is not a party to that agreement, it is between Apple and Ireland.

The EU were advising Ireland on how to spend/disperse the money when it was paid, so I presume they were ok with before it went into Escrow. Open to correction on this too.

Shefwedfan · 03-04-2020 12:07PM

Runaways wrote: »

My brother, two cousins and two mates all self employed and applied and told they weren’t eligible. I can give you their numbers maybe you can advise them what they did wrong on the form perhaps?

Well then you have some great information for them today

You must pass it on

blackwhite · 03-04-2020 12:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't try to deflect away from it. I have freely said that I don't understand the detail of it, not being an expert in that field.

So in your opinion is it a cut and dried case - the appeal?

The appeal is nothing to do which which entity was making sales to end customers.

The appeal relates to how Apple structured ASI compared to how all other companies doing a "Double Irish" structured their legal entities.

All other companies had two Irish registered legal entities within their chain fulfilling the same role that Apple tried to do using one Irish registered legal entity.

Most companies used an Irish registered and Irish tax resident operations company to establish an Irish base, and then an Irish registered but not Irish tax resident company to route the vast majority of their profits through.

Apple set up a single Irish legal entity, but split it into two branches.

The "OPs" branch was Irish tax resident, but the "Head Office" branch was not Irish tax resident under Irish law.
Apple obtained a ruling from Revenue agreeing that the Head Office branch was deemed to be Bermudan tax resident under Irish law, meaning that any profits in that part of the business were not taxable in Ireland.

The EU case is that the Revenue ruling that was given to Apple constituted illegal state aid and allowed them set up structures that no other company availed of.
Ireland disputes that because 1) the end result of Apple using 1 Irish legal entity compared to other companies using 2 Irish legal entities is effectively the same, so there's no unfair advantage and 2) any other company could have set up the same structure and obtained a similar ruling from Revenue if they chose to.

I'd tend to side with Ireland on this one, but our common law based legal system is very different to the largely civil code based legal systems of most of continental Europe. Brexit is a blow to our strength in Europe on this, as they are the largest European country with a system similar to ours.
Our concept of companies having multiple branches that can be treated in different ways isn't nearly as common on the continent, and is ultimately a large part of what lead to the original EU ruling.
If Ireland ultimately lose this appeal it's a major blow to our tax sovereignty (because tax residency is supposed to be a national competency), but also a blow to the sovereignty of our legal system.

Sultan_of_Ping · 03-04-2020 12:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think anyone has addressed what happens if Ireland drops it's appeal.

Nor what the get-out clauses of the Escrow agreement say.

We have established that the EU is not a party to that agreement, it is between Apple and Ireland.

The EU were advising Ireland on how to spend/disperse the money when it was paid, so I presume they were ok with before it went into Escrow. Open to correction on this too.

Yes, I did.

In response to an earlier post of yours (#1860), I wrote:-

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Again, you demonstrate you don't know how this works.

First, BNY Mellon are escrow agents not BoA.

Second, "the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance"? No, this was explained to you earlier the Minister for Finance does not have control of the funds, they are under the supervision of BNYM, as escrow agent and custodian.

The investment and management of the escrow fund is jointly overseen by the Minister and Apple through an investment committee.

Third, there is no "gentleman's agreement." There is a legal deed in place covering all this.

Fourth, our status as appellant is no less and no greater than Apple's so even if we drop our appeal, Apple can continue and the funds stay where they are until the matter is determined.

Fifth, by virtue of the deed covering the escrow, Apple have quite a lot of say as to what happens to the money. They are not only represented on the committee overseeing the investment of it, they are the other party to the escrow deed.

.....and as already has been pointed to you (by me) the Deed of Escrow states "all claims of ownership and access to this money is suspended until the European Courts have concluded the proceedings that the Government and Apple have brought."

that's a disjunctive rather than a conjunctive "and" - this point was also explained to you in post #1910

Mortelaro · 03-04-2020 12:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think anyone has addressed what happens if Ireland drops it's appeal.

Nor what the get-out clauses of the Escrow agreement say.

We have established that the EU is not a party to that agreement, it is between Apple and Ireland.

Your modus operandi is to clutter up a thread about Sinn Féin with a never ending list of meaningless questions on something that will never happen,to take the heat off the thread title
I know we're in lock down but theres only 4 or 5 people left reading this
So I dont know why you should be concerned
Take a leaf out of my book,put the phone down and enjoy the sunshine
I couldnt care less what's said about the political personalities here tbh,its too niche
But ha carry on,there'll be one or two to set you straight now and again:)

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 12:10PM

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Yes, I did.

In response to an earlier post of yours (#1860), I wrote:-

.....and as already has been pointed to you (by me) the Deed of Escrow states "all claims of ownership and access to this money is suspended until the European Courts have concluded the proceedings that the Government and Apple have brought."

that's a disjunctive rather than a conjunctive "and" - this point was also explained to you in post #1910

Can you post a link to the Deed? Maybe you have done this and I missed it.

Shefwedfan · 03-04-2020 12:11PM

Why would anyone want Europe thinking they can tell Ireland how we run our tax system?

What exactly is the benefit to anyone?

Or is it just because FG decided to fight the decision and the narrative is FG=bad?

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 12:13PM

Mortelaro wrote: »

Your modus operandi is to clutter up a thread about Sinn Féin with a never ending list of meaningless questions on something that will never happen,to take the heat off the thread title
I know we're in lock down but theres only 4 or 5 people left reading this
So I dont know why you should be concerned
Take a leaf out of my book,put the phone down and enjoy the sunshine
I couldnt care less what's said about the political personalities here tbh,its too niche
But ha carry on,there'll be one or two to set you straight now and again:)

'Clutter up'? Have you seen some of the rants and bile posted on this thread?

I find this subject interesting, if it doesn't interest you, you have a scroll wheel like everyone else.
Why are you trying to censor or debar conversation/discussion? If somebody on the dreaded Shinner side was doing that, you's be all over it like a rash.

'Nothing to say...say nothing', would be my advice.

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 12:14PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Why would anyone want Europe thinking they can tell Ireland how we run our tax system?

What exactly is the benefit to anyone?

Or is it just because FG decided to fight the decision and the narrative is FG=bad?

FF backed this in the Dáil too, which allowed Noonan to proceed.

Shefwedfan · 03-04-2020 12:17PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

FF backed this in the Dáil too, which allowed Noonan to proceed.

Yes I know, I agree with the government

What I don’t know is why SF think it’s bad? What will ireland gain from losing more control to Europe?

03-04-2020 12:22PM

Runaways wrote: »

My brother, two cousins and two mates all self employed and applied and told they weren’t eligible. I can give you their numbers maybe you can advise them what they did wrong on the form perhaps?

What form did they fill in?

Sultan_of_Ping · 03-04-2020 12:23PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Can you post a link to the Deed? Maybe you have done this and I missed it.

You asked earlier for sources - I directed you to them - DoF, C&AG, the Official Report from Dáil Éireann.

The details of the Deed have not been published, but I guess it is entirely possible that the DoF, C&AG and various ministers have all been conspiring to mislead everyone, so I'm guessing you'll play in the gray area, so have at it.

Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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