Is it just me or have SF vanished?

02-04-2020 10:40PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That is incredibly unfair. Ireland went from one of the poorest states in Europe in the 1950's to one of the wealthiest now. That is down to good governance.

But a school child can see that particular brand if cute-hoorism hiding behind a sh1t corp.tax rate and calling it development isnt going to last long term

Moves have been underway last 5-6 years and can only see them.being intensified in a cash short post covid crisis tbh

NI's economy is one of the worst regions in the UK, btw.

Its long since time,that was under dublin control.tbh

02-04-2020 10:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

But a school child can see that particular brand if cute-hoorism hiding behind a sh1t corp.tax rate and calling it development isnt going to last long term

Moves have been underway last 5-6 years and can only see them.being intensified in a cash short post covid crisis tbh

Its long since time,that was under dublin control.tbh

What moves?

FDI has been brilliant for Ireland. Why don't you think it can last long term?

Runaways · 02-04-2020 10:45PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

England pumps billions into NI every year. Circa 70% of the economy in NI is State supported. (An old figure, so happy if anyone wants to pull up recent figures)

I’m well aware.
And so it will remain. But I can see the Brits getting very nervous soon and looking at the books and making some serious decisions about Unnecessary expenditure. And NI is top of that list.

Look at the spat about the UK EU office in Belfast.
The Brits have no interest in maintaining a presence.
That’s going to grow legs.

02-04-2020 10:50PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What moves?

FDI has been brilliant for Ireland. Why don't you think it can last long term?

You may have missed out on the whole apple/eu tax and 13 billion,which ireland for reasons only known to FG are spending millions defending apples right not to pay tax,for one point

Trump wont be the last america 1st president,the next will.likely be much more effective and actually get many companies repatriated....several potential free trade agreements over next 12-17 years can severly undermine vital sectors of irish econmy

The burying head in sand and pretending there isnt massive risks in medium term is truely shocking across all parties in ireland....do you honestly think apple will only be paying .05% tax on eu earnings indefinetly and any increase in tax will undermine our tax haven status??

02-04-2020 10:51PM

Runaways wrote: »

I’m well aware.
And so it will remain. But I can see the Brits getting very nervous soon and looking at the books and making some serious decisions about Unnecessary expenditure. And NI is top of that list.

Look at the spat about the UK EU office in Belfast.
The Brits have no interest in maintaining a presence.
That’s going to grow legs.

Possibly, I'm not so sure.

25 years after the GFA the real question should be why England still has to prop up the economy there?

When the state support goes, you can expect to see a large population decline if the jobs go too.

02-04-2020 10:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You may have missed out on the whole apple/eu tax and 13 billion,which ireland for reasons only known to FG are spending millions defending apples right not to pay tax,for one point

Trump wont be the last america 1st president,the next will.likely be much more effective and actually get many companies repatriated....several potential free trade agreements over next 12-17 years can severly undermine vital sectors of irish econmy

The burying head in sand and pretending there isnt massive risks in medium term is truely shocking across all parties in ireland....do you honestly think apple will only be paying .05% tax on eu earnings indefinetly and any increase in tax will undermine our tax haven status??

I can definitely see an America First policy damaging Ireland's economy. It's not good news for us generally, but not sure it will lead to the shutting down of plants here.

blackwhite · 02-04-2020 10:56PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think this is true...Apple have no hold over the money. They have paid it. It is in escrow because Ireland has appealed and the Minister for Finance is the holder of the account. Apple's appeal does not bar the release of the escrow money. Once we drop the appeal there is nothing legally stopping the money coming out of Escrow.
Apple can still continue pursuing their appeal.

I linked to an RTE report backing what I said. All I see are people 'telling' me that is wrong. They haven't backed it up with a source. So once again..back it up or it's just your word against somebody else's.

Fair enough on that. Mea cupla.

Your first point is complete and utter BS. Once the matter is under appeal then the funds are in escrow - who is party to the appeal doesn’t come into it.
As always, facts and the truth are irrelevant when it comes to blindly parroting the party line

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 10:57PM

Runaways wrote: »

I remember fruit of the loom pulling out of donegal and the damage it caused

Baazs point stands.

We should start restructuring and stop depending so heavily on FDI. These companies could well be all leaving after all this.

Even if they don’t we should have a fall back plan in action anyways

We have a nimble enough economy but if one domino falls in terms of an apple or Pfizer leaving they all will

Care to elaborate on what you mean by this? Restructure what and how do you propose to direct this emergent structure?

What should our industrial policy be and what changes do you think are needed in the education, science, technology and taxation policies?

This smacks of more Shinnernomics - throw a word or phrase around that describes some nebulous end-point, then provide no ideas or details on how to get there.

02-04-2020 10:57PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I can definitely see an America First policy damaging Ireland's economy. It's not good news for us generally, but not sure it will lead to the shutting down of plants here.

Tbh the covid damage done to american econmy is an immediate threat to our econmy...we need to work to limit our exposure to.american econmy long term too.....

They can no longer be regarded as a stable country (they are running deficits with years that would horrify your most ill-taught out shinner...when that catches up.with them it wont be pretty...we need to avoid being caught up.in that inevitable clusterfcuk)

blackwhite · 02-04-2020 10:59PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think this is true...Apple have no hold over the money. They have paid it. It is in escrow because Ireland has appealed and the Minister for Finance is the holder of the account. Apple's appeal does not bar the release of the escrow money. Once we drop the appeal there is nothing legally stopping the money coming out of Escrow.
Apple can still continue pursuing their appeal.

I linked to an RTE report backing what I said. All I see are people 'telling' me that is wrong. They haven't backed it up with a source. So once again..back it up or it's just your word against somebody else's.

Fair enough on that. Mea cupla.

On your second point - I’ve back it up. I’ve linked you to extracts from the US Senate report that details Apple legal structures. But again - facts that don’t suit the narrative are ignored, and we get yet another falsehood that “nobody has backed it up” - a bit of honest debating once and again wouldn’t go astray francie
:rolleyes:

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 11:00PM

smurgen wrote: »

Not if we're lead by donkeys anyway. They don't want to do heavy lifting. Making us a offshore tax haven for big business takes only a few strokes of a pen. Growing domestic industry and corporations requires considerable effort, abstract thinking and selfless effort.something beyond FFG.

So you want to do away with low corporate taxes, but you expect indigenous firms to grow to become corporations.......riiiiiiiiiight :rolleyes:

Jizique · 02-04-2020 11:03PM

Runaways wrote: »

I remember fruit of the loom pulling out of donegal and the damage it caused

Baazs point stands.

We should start restructuring and stop depending so heavily on FDI. These companies could well be all leaving after all this.

Even if they don’t we should have a fall back plan in action anyways

We have a nimble enough economy but if one domino falls in terms of an apple or Pfizer leaving they all will

Fruit of the Loom....
Low value added jobs making unbranded T-shirt’s and undergarments in a global industry; that was never going to work long term.
Big difference between that and medical devices in Galway or Apple in Cork or any of the other high tech industries spread around the country.

Runaways · 02-04-2020 11:08PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Possibly, I'm not so sure.

25 years after the GFA the real question should be why England still has to prop up the economy there?

When the state support goes, you can expect to see a large population decline if the jobs go too.

There’s population decline already. The kids are going to college down here or in Britain and not returning to NI.

The question Britain certainly is going to ask is why are we paying for that? We get nothing back.

Hello there border poll and that’ll be that.

Shefwedfan · 02-04-2020 11:09PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Seems a truely bizzare method of debating to immediately exclude one of largest componants from the discussion?

What is point of that?
(Plz.dont start cursing)

You mention India

I am just wondering do you understand what IT companies do in Ireland? what is the concern about India?

Shefwedfan · 02-04-2020 11:10PM

Jizique wrote: »

Fruit of the Loom....
Low value added jobs making unbranded T-shirt’s and undergarments in a global industry; that was never going to work long term.
Big difference between that and medical devices in Galway or Apple in Cork or any of the other high tech industries spread around the country.

This is the point, I just wonder do people understand what the companies are doing in Ireland>?

02-04-2020 11:11PM

Runaways wrote: »

There’s population decline already. The kids are going to college down here or in Britain and not returning to NI.

The question Britain certainly is going to ask is why are we paying for that? We get nothing back.

Hello there border poll and that’ll be that.

They haven't asked it yet, it would be a rational thing to do from a UK perspective, but I'm not sure such things are guided by reason.

Why can't the NI economy be fixed?

02-04-2020 11:16PM

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This is the point, I just wonder do people understand what the companies are doing in Ireland>?

What are they doing here,they cant do cheaper elsewhere,??

Boys thinking tax evasion is good,so long.as keeps people employed (pretty much this was semtiment of an earlier post of yours) are walking blindly into trouble

Its basic leadership.to idemtify medium term risks like......in post covid cash shortage,theres no money left to take from middle class and no country for corporations to put their money into.....unless ecb prints obscene sums of money,(which in ireland will lead to housing market bubble that will be worse than celtic tiger...new taxes needed to target curtailing this area short term).....corporate tax rates will rise

Runaways · 02-04-2020 11:18PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They haven't asked it yet, it would be a rational thing to do from a UK perspective, but I'm not sure such things are guided by reason.

Why can't the NI economy be fixed?

It will never be fixed as it stands. Heavens knows what it will be like when this settles down. But absolutely Britain is going to cut costs. I’d almost bet NI gets cut free. Leaving aside whether we’ll all vote in unison for a second, a UI would be a massive economic boon for the whole island and employment and society up there especially. They’re getting nowhere ever as things stand. Just worse. A DUP member today blaming abortion and gays for gods vengeance / corona.

It’s 2020.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2020 11:32PM

blackwhite wrote: »

Your first point is complete and utter BS. Once the matter is under appeal then the funds are in escrow - who is party to the appeal doesn’t come into it.
As always, facts and the truth are irrelevant when it comes to blindly parroting the party line

I think you are wrong here.

The funds have been paid by Apple. They have no more say on what happens them only what we agreed with them should happen
We appealed the ruling so the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance. We agreed with Apple to appoint the Bank of America as a custodian of the money..we didn't have to do that.
If we drop the appeal the money continues to it's destination and whatever is decided by the countries with a claim on it, legally. The only thing stopping that is our agreement with Apple, which I don't know is legally binding or a gentleman's agreement.
Apple can continue to appeal and if they win, demand repayment. But they have zero say on what happens the money until then if we want it to be that way.

blackwhite wrote: »

On your second point - I’ve back it up. I’ve linked you to extracts from the US Senate report that details Apple legal structures. But again - facts that don’t suit the narrative are ignored, and we get yet another falsehood that “nobody has backed it up” - a bit of honest debating once and again wouldn’t go astray francie
:rolleyes:

Ok...I looked at it again.
Here is the EU saying it themselves.
I will take the EU's word on what was happening, not the US's, if that is ok.

Apple Sales International holds the right to use Apple's intellectual property to sell and manufacture Apple products outside North and South America. In exchange of this right, it makes payments to Apple in the US to contribute to the development of this intellectual property – often more than 2 billion US dollars per year.

In practice, Apple Sales International buys Apple products from their manufacturers. It sells these products throughout Europe, as well as in the Middle East, Africa and India. And then records all sales in Ireland.

No matter if you buy your iPhone at the Apple Store in Berlin, Rome or elsewhere in these regions, contractually you buy it from Apple Sales International in Cork in Ireland. This is how Apple decided to set it up. It means that all profits coming from those sales are recorded in Ireland.

Do you accept now (in the interests of honest debate) that there are two sides to this story?

blackwhite · 03-04-2020 12:11AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think you are wrong here.

The funds have been paid by Apple. They have no more say on what happens them only what we agreed with them should happen
We appealed the ruling so the funds were put in Escrow under the control of our Minister of Finance. We agreed with Apple to appoint the Bank of America as a custodian of the money..we didn't have to do that.
If we drop the appeal the money continues to it's destination and whatever is decided by the countries with a claim on it, legally. The only thing stopping that is our agreement with Apple, which I don't know is legally binding or a gentleman's agreement.
Apple can continue to appeal and if they win, demand repayment. But they have zero say on what happens the money until then if we want it to be that way.

Ok...I looked at it again.
Here is the EU saying it themselves.
I will take the EU's word on what was happening, not the US's, if that is ok.

Do you accept now (in the interests of honest debate) that there are two sides to this story?

You haven’t a clue TBH.

The escrow argument is utter BS - same applies in Irish law as does under EU regulations. Once an appeal is launched then the award/damages or in this case a fine is either suspended or paid and held in escrow until the appeal is finalised. But of course, admitting that might undermine Mary Lou’s nonsense about using the Apple money for the current crisis so everyone here knows you could never bring yourself to admit that :rolleyes:

On the Apple legal structures - there’s no “two sides” to the story. There’s the legal facts of the matter, and the usual Francie rubbish on not being able to understand something, and then claiming that whatever you’ve imagined is the same as the actual facts.
ASI buys the product from the Apple manufacturing entities. It then sells the product to Apple entities in the destination counties who sell to the end or else it sells on to third party distributors. This is all documented in the EU case, and in the US Senate report.
You being incapable of reading the full reports, and instead cherry-picking snapshots that you think mean something different doesn’t mean that’s there’s suddenly a set of Trumpian alternate facts that you can claim are equally valid

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 12:17AM

blackwhite wrote: »

You haven’t a clue TBH.

The escrow argument is utter BS - same applies in Irish law as does under EU regulations. Once an appeal is launched then the award/damages or in this case a fine is either suspended or paid and held in escrow until the appeal is finalised. But of course, admitting that might undermine Mary Lou’s nonsense about using the Apple money for the current crisis so everyone here knows you could never bring yourself to admit that :rolleyes:

WE made a deal with Apple over this. Us and Apple...nobody else is a party to it. Look it up.

On the Apple legal structures - there’s no “two sides” to the story. There’s the legal facts of the matter, and the usual Francie rubbish on not being able to understand something, and then claiming that whatever you’ve imagined is the same as the actual facts.
ASI buys the product from the Apple manufacturing entities. It then sells the product to Apple entities in the destination counties who sell to the end or else it sells on to third party distributors. This is all documented in the EU case, and in the US Senate report.
You being incapable of reading the full reports, and instead cherry-picking snapshots that you think mean something different doesn’t mean that’s there’s suddenly a set of Trumpian alternate facts that you can claim are equally valid

What I claimed happened is WHAT the EU said happened. Simple as. I have no interest in US 'legal' opinion on it. They lost the case.

Now if you spend a little less time on invective and actually look it up, that is the current position. If Apple win then that position changes...but until then...that's it.

I have no idea what SF's or Mary Lou McDonald's take is on all of this, nor do I care much either.

blanch152 · 03-04-2020 12:42AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WE made a deal with Apple over this. Us and Apple...nobody else is a party to it. Look it up.

What I claimed happened is WHAT the EU said happened. Simple as. I have no interest in US 'legal' opinion on it. They lost the case.

Now if you spend a little less time on invective and actually look it up, that is the current position. If Apple win then that position changes...but until then...that's it.

I have no idea what SF's or Mary Lou McDonald's take is on all of this, nor do I care much either.

You really don’t have a clue about this, do you?

In this case the EU is the equivalent of the DPP, they decide there is a case to answer and they prosecute. The courts to date are the equivalent of remand courts and preliminary hearings, they decide on bail and details of the proceedings, the main court case is yet to happen.

Yet, you want to take everything off Apple, but if one of your beloved republicans was in the same situation, you would be screaming blue murder.

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 12:49AM

blanch152 wrote: »

You really don’t have a clue about this, do you?

In this case the EU is the equivalent of the DPP, they decide there is a case to answer and they prosecute. The courts to date are the equivalent of remand courts and preliminary hearings, they decide on bail and details of the proceedings, the main court case is yet to happen.

Yet, you want to take everything off Apple, but if one of your beloved republicans was in the same situation, you would be screaming blue murder.

Did you miss this in my post?

If Apple win then that position changes...but until then...that's it.

Sometimes I am suspicious you post just to have a dig at the Shinners and not really on what is being said.

Would I be right about that?

blackwhite · 03-04-2020 01:21AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WE made a deal with Apple over this. Us and Apple...nobody else is a party to it. Look it up.

What I claimed happened is WHAT the EU said happened. Simple as. I have no interest in US 'legal' opinion on it. They lost the case.

Now if you spend a little less time on invective and actually look it up, that is the current position. If Apple win then that position changes...but until then...that's it.

I have no idea what SF's or Mary Lou McDonald's take is on all of this, nor do I care much either.

As usual - ignore the substance and spout BS.

Read the EU findings and come back - if it was anyone else I’d say you could apologise once you had - but we all now enough of your history not to expect such basic decency as that

ASI sold to in-country entities, who then sold on to the final customer. It’s stated BOTH the EU and US reports. You being incapable of comprehending that doesn’t change the facts.

Defend the cult at all costs Francie - even when you haven’t got a clue about the topic :rolleyes:

piplip87 · 03-04-2020 01:27AM

I see all the talk about Apple.

Isn't it ironic the party that has opposed every EU referendum, opposed every new power given to Brussels and until recently was an Inspiration to Farage and the Brexit poster boys regarding their views on Europe, now coming out in favour of the EU over ruling Irish Tax Laws. ...... I am staunchly pro EU but I see the Apple Fiasco as nothing more as an attempt to get Ireland to change the corporate tax structure.

blackwhite · 03-04-2020 01:28AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

WE made a deal with Apple over this. Us and Apple...nobody else is a party to it. Look it up.

Revenue accepted that Apples legal structure met their thresholds - that’s not “striking a deal”

There’s currently 3 parties disputing the case before the European Court of Justice - Ireland, Apple and the European Commission.
If Ireland drop our appeal then there still remains a dispute between Apple and the European Commission. Until that appeal is resolved then the escrow doesn’t get released. That’s the legal situation - the “whatever propaganda is in Frances head” situation doesn’t have any legal standing.

Althugh I have to admit - it’s been very amusing to see you of all posters getting indigent spouting about “morals” on this one - given the knots you’ve tied yourself in previously trying to defend some of the most henious acts imaginable :pac:

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 01:35AM

blackwhite wrote: »

As usual - ignore the substance and spout BS.

Read the EU findings and come back - if it was anyone else I’d say you could apologise once you had - but we all now enough of your history not to expect such basic decency as that

ASI sold to in-country entities, who then sold on to the final customer. It’s stated BOTH the EU and US reports. You being incapable of comprehending that doesn’t change the facts.

Defend the cult at all costs Francie - even when you haven’t got a clue about the topic :rolleyes:

With all the invective I am not sure what your issue is.

I originally quoted an RTE news source and then when you objected to that I went straight to an EU source and what RTE News said is almost an exact copy of the statement by Vesthager.

Apple Sales International holds the right to use Apple's intellectual property to sell and manufacture Apple products outside North and South America. In exchange of this right, it makes payments to Apple in the US to contribute to the development of this intellectual property – often more than 2 billion US dollars per year.

In practice, Apple Sales International buys Apple products from their manufacturers. It sells these products throughout Europe, as well as in the Middle East, Africa and India. And then records all sales in Ireland.

No matter if you buy your iPhone at the Apple Store in Berlin, Rome or elsewhere in these regions, contractually you buy it from Apple Sales International in Cork in Ireland. This is how Apple decided to set it up. It means that all profits coming from those sales are recorded in Ireland.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/STATEMENT_16_2926

Is there another EU take on it? If there is, less of the anti Shinner invective(I have no idea what their take is on it) and post what the hell it is you mean?

tikkahunter · 03-04-2020 01:51AM

14 Straight hours of arguing Francie , ****ing hell.

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 01:59AM

blackwhite wrote: »

Revenue accepted that Apples legal structure met their thresholds - that’s not “striking a deal”

There’s currently 3 parties disputing the case before the European Court of Justice - Ireland, Apple and the European Commission.
If Ireland drop our appeal then there still remains a dispute between Apple and the European Commission. Until that appeal is resolved then the escrow doesn’t get released. That’s the legal situation - the “whatever propaganda is in Frances head” situation doesn’t have any legal standing.

You are the one imploring honest debating...any chance you can do what I have done....provide some sources?

My understanding is that Apple and the Irish government agreed a deal on the Escrow account between them.

I know we definitely control it and have appointed the custodian..an American bank and the investment managers of the fund, Amundi, BlackRock Investment Management and Goldman Sachs Asset Management who make investment decisions on our behalf (and those who have a claim on it obviously)
I can't link to a source on this as it was something I heard discussed on radio, but here is a journalist speculating on it too.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/apple-s-15bn-back-tax-could-fund-ireland-s-cash-crunch-1.4209152

If you have sources to say Apple control what happens that money..post them please.

FrancieBrady · 03-04-2020 02:01AM

tikkahunter wrote: »

14 Straight hours of arguing Francie , ****ing hell.

My wife will tell (and my back and hands) that 10 of them were spent on the garden as well) it doesn't take long to write a post of a few sentences. I was on Whatsapp and facebook today too, finishing the day with a glass of wine and watching John Lord splitting plants...amazing eh?

Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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