Is it just me or have SF vanished?

joeguevara · 02-04-2020 1:52pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unable to be touched as long as there is an 'appeal' in progress. The money releases once appeals are dropped.

The issue is Francie is that if we agree with the commission, then other E.U. countries and US have a claim to that money. It’s not as simple as dropping the appeal and taking the money.

https://www.thejournal.ie/apple-tax-2955480-Aug2016/

Mortelaro · 02-04-2020 1:52pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So if there are 'plenty of articles' could you post one that says this will happen if we withdraw our case?

That's one thing I dont even have to do
The intellectual property is created in the U S
The sales are done in several countries worldwide
The profits take a huge administration charge of whatever's needed to kill sales taxes in other countries from a shell company in Ireland
It's a basic accounting structure that Ireland acquiesses in because Apple and others bring so much employment here

My learned friend sultan has explained what an Escrow is
Feel free to pass all this onto head office

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2020 1:55pm

joeguevara wrote: »

Here is one from the BBC https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37299430

It says On top of that, the commission said, Ireland's tax take could be reduced if the US forces Apple to pay more back to the parent company.
This leaves Ireland at the centre of an uncertain tax situation on both sides of the Atlantic.

No...that article clearly says 'could' as well as saying many other things 'could' happen.

Morte's partner seems to be saying something very specific 'would' happen.

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 1:55pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Unable to be touched as long as there is an 'appeal' in progress. The money releases once appeals are dropped.

Well there you have it, and SF solution just begging to be put into practice......

.......send the lads around to Tim's place to make him an offer he can't refuse

:D:D

tikkahunter · 02-04-2020 1:55pm

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Escrow means we are unable to touch it - it's not in any account the country has access to or control over.

The money was converted into European bonds, which are being managed by a number of firms under the supervision of an escrow agent, and ultimately under the direction of the Court.

That's how escrow works - however, SF no doubt will have you believe it's in a post office or credit union account somewhere as if it was your Communion money.:rolleyes:

What is the figure-3000+ they employ in Cork , like every other multinational in the country, they are here for tax reasons and the upshot of that is employment and a booming economy. Before this we basically had full employment and our credit rating is good and that gave us the coin to borrow for this disaster, I am not happy at paying 52% tax and USC every week but I can also see why it is necessary. SF would want to take heed to the saying “don’t bite the hand that feeds you”.

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 1:57pm

joeguevara wrote: »

The issue is Francie is that if we agree with the commission, then other E.U. countries and US have a claim to that money. It’s not as simple as dropping the appeal and taking the money.

https://www.thejournal.ie/apple-tax-2955480-Aug2016/

Also, if we agree with the Commission we open the door to all sorts of "interference" and broadening of their competencies - and I would've thought the last thing SF want is an activist Commission poring over Shinnernomic policies.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2020 1:58pm

joeguevara wrote: »

The issue is Francie is that if we agree with the commission, then other E.U. countries and US have a claim to that money. It’s not as simple as dropping the appeal and taking the money.

https://www.thejournal.ie/apple-tax-2955480-Aug2016/

I said that in my original post on this objecting to the idea that anyone would be 'raiding' or suggesting doing something illegal.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2020 2:01pm

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Well there you have it, and SF solution just begging to be put into practice......

.......send the lads around to Tim's place to make him an offer he can't refuse :D:D

What happens to anything in escrow, when the appeals are dropped Sultan? Who is the payee on that Escrow account?

Instead of trying to deflect away...maybe try and answer for once?

Mortelaro · 02-04-2020 2:10pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What happens to anything in escrow, when the appeals are dropped Sultan? Who is the payee on that Escrow account?

Instead of trying to deflect away...maybe try and answer for once?

Are you suggesting Apple would drop an appeal? Why would they do that?

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 2:11pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What happens to anything in escrow, when the appeals are dropped Sultan? Who is the payee on that Escrow account?

Instead of trying to deflect away...maybe try and answer for once?

Not at all - the funds are invested and the investment and management of the escrow fund is jointly overseen by the Minister for Finance and Apple Sales International (ASI) and Apple Operations Europe (AOE) through an investment committee.

The Minister is the beneficial owner for the duration of the escrow fund in accordance with the framework deed. EDIT: Strictly speaking the "payee" on the account will likely be the escrow agent.

If Apple drop their appeal and we do likewise then we get the moolah, although other MSs may look to claim a chunk of it. Dropping it means we then have to accept the fallout - that Commission has a role in sovereign tax matters - is that a good thing or bad thing? I would suggest the latter, but hey that's just me.

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 2:13pm

Mortelaro wrote: »

Are you suggesting Apple would drop an appeal? Why would they do that?

there may be tax advantages for them - it would accrue as taxes paid here, which can be offset against their US tax bill.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2020 2:16pm

Mortelaro wrote: »

Are you suggesting Apple would drop an appeal? Why would they do that?

Apple have paid the money over. If Ireland drops it's case Apple's case becomes much much weaker.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2020 2:20pm

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Not at all - the funds are invested and the investment and management of the escrow fund is jointly overseen by the Minister for Finance and Apple Sales International (ASI) and Apple Operations Europe (AOE) through an investment committee.

The Minister is the beneficial owner for the duration of the escrow fund in accordance with the framework deed. EDIT: Strictly speaking the "payee" on the account will likely be the escrow agent.

If Apple drop their appeal and we do likewise then we get the moolah, although other MSs may look to claim a chunk of it. Dropping it means we then have to accept the fallout - that Commission has a role in sovereign tax matters - is that a good thing or bad thing? I would suggest the latter, but hey that's just me.

So nothing illegal if things are done properly. No 'raiding' required or indeed suggested as was said by original poster.

The rights, wrongs, advantages, disadvantages are another debate.

joeguevara · 02-04-2020 2:21pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Apple have paid the money over. If Ireland drops it's case Apple's case becomes much much weaker.

Not necessarily. If it was shown that we dropped our case because we wanted the money it wouldn’t weaken Apple Case. All legal arguments have been made in initial case. Would we be saying that Ireland lied or were mistaken in our arguments? We could say we now agree with European Commission but that wouldn’t weaken apples case, especially as we have lodged our appeal. How can we withdrawn without it looking mal fides?

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 2:28pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Apple have paid the money over. If Ireland drops it's case Apple's case becomes much much weaker.

Why would we drop our case before Apple - doesn't exactly send out a great message to one of the longest standing FDI companies here - does it?

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 2:31pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So nothing illegal if things are done properly. No 'raiding' required or indeed suggested as was said by original poster.

The rights, wrongs, advantages, disadvantages are another debate.

Yes, "done properly" means waiting for the court case to play out.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2020 2:37pm

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Yes, "done properly" means waiting for the court case to play out.

Dropping the case is not 'improper' or 'illegal'. It is something we are perfectly entitled to do at any stage if our opinion changes or circumstances change.

Runaways · 02-04-2020 2:38pm

Was FF raiding the pension fund illegal?

Always wondered

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 2:42pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Dropping the case is not 'improper' or 'illegal'. It is something we are perfectly entitled to do at any stage if our opinion changes or circumstances change.

Of course we can - there's no law against being stupid.

So yes nothing to stop walking away from a long standing partner and handing the Commission a role in our sovereign tax affairs - Commission wouldn't be too bothered, but the other MSs, despite any windfall, might be a bit miffed but if it means more for them by way of FDI, then perhaps not.

I suppose Trump would be a bit miffed to see us and the EU get the money instead of the US - but he really doesn't matter.

To be honest, dropping the case unilaterally, is just the type of stupid act we can expect from an SF-led government on about day #2 :rolleyes:

02-04-2020 2:42pm

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Not at all - the funds are invested and the investment and management of the escrow fund is jointly overseen by the Minister for Finance and Apple Sales International (ASI) and Apple Operations Europe (AOE) through an investment committee.

The Minister is the beneficial owner for the duration of the escrow fund in accordance with the framework deed. EDIT: Strictly speaking the "payee" on the account will likely be the escrow agent.

If Apple drop their appeal and we do likewise then we get the moolah, although other MSs may look to claim a chunk of it. Dropping it means we then have to accept the fallout - that Commission has a role in sovereign tax matters - is that a good thing or bad thing? I would suggest the latter, but hey that's just me.

This is the main point we should be really worried about.

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 2:44pm

Runaways wrote: »

Was FF raiding the pension fund illegal?

Always wondered

No, because that money was always within our custody/jurisdiction - if you think it was maybe point to the statutory instrument/deed they breached?

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 2:47pm

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the main point we should be really worried about.

Agreed - but populism demands the sacrifice of our long-term interests for short term transient gains. Then when we realise how goosed we are we can always blame the "elites."

joeguevara · 02-04-2020 2:47pm

Runaways wrote: »

Was FF raiding the pension fund illegal?

Always wondered

And if you have always wondered, what have you come up with.

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2020 2:54pm

Sultan_of_Ping wrote: »

Agreed - but populism demands the sacrifice of our long-term interests for short term transient gains. Then when we realise how goosed we are we can always blame the "elites."

Apologies if this offends you, but I am with Vesthager on this. If she wins in her quest to have all corporations pay their fecking dues...then we all as Europeans benefit.

These companies(Amazon, Apple, Chrysler, Starbucks etc etc) are pulling a fast one(I would say a 'criminal one') and not paying anything near what they should be and the serfs are scrambling around on the ground in fear looking for their hats to grovel into ..do you agree with that?
Short termism here will hurt us in the long term.

jh79 · 02-04-2020 3:03pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Apologies if this offends you, but I am with Vesthager on this. If she wins in her quest to have all corporations pay their fecking dues...then we all as Europeans benefit.

These companies(Amazon, Apple, Chrysler, Starbucks etc etc) are pulling a fast one(I would say a 'criminal one') and not paying anything near what they should be and the serfs are scrambling around on the ground in fear looking for their hats to grovel into ..do you agree with that?
Short termism here will hurt us in the long term.

It has to be done at an EU / worldwide level. If we do it on our own like SF want we're f*cked.

Randy Archer · 02-04-2020 3:04pm

maccored wrote: »

I dont care where you think i live mr hilarious, the point is SF made efforts to talk to FF. All your waffling and whataboutery cant change that

Mary Lou’s statements, which I provided , says the contrary . How convenient that you ignore that , but that’s down to your utter lack of experience in politics, business or any form of negotiations

She burned bridges and mouthed off ,showing clear evidence that she ain’t good at analysis or with facts. Who on earth would do a deal with the likes of her when she returns with her tail between her legs. Any half wit knew that she was waffling at the point that she made that amateurish move

Whataboutry ? Lad, you don’t even know what the word means

You went waffling about why the established parties refuse to talk to SF . You have also made several untrue statements that SF sought to talk to FF and FG . Making unfounded statements to the media is not talking to FF and FG . The aforementioned statements that she made ended all prospects of FF or FG talking to her

And we saw how Irish stocks took a dip in value after her student politics stunt

All I did, successfully, was explain why their stance against SF is legitimate . I dealt with the issue directly . Get a dictionary ,son

You don’t care ? Of course you don’t, you have absolutely no ground to make a rebuttal . Your credibility has been shot to pieces

FrancieBrady · 02-04-2020 3:07pm

jh79 wrote: »

It has to be done at an EU / worldwide level. If we do it on our own like SF want we're f*cked.

So why aren't we backing the EU?

Fear, is why we are backing the EU.

Or somebody is getting benefit from backing Apple.

Penfailed · 02-04-2020 3:10pm

The previous 10 or so pages on this thread are mental! SF state that pharma companies need to step up to the plate.
Cue the haters saying, "Who do they think they are? This isn't possible! They don't have a clue! Imagine if SF were in power!"
A couple of posters tried to defend SF and were verbally lynched by the hordes asking about stuff that SF didn't even comment on or about.
Pharma come out and say that they will be ramping up their operations to try to help in the fight against the virus. People who defended SF say, "Ha! Told you so!"
The hordes say, "No! That's not what we meant! We meant 'x, y and z'..."
It's laughable...but not really funny. People on both sides of this argument need to take a step back and take stock. Are you really achieving anything? Are you moving the argument forward? Are you going to change anyone's mind? Some people think SF can do no wrong. Some people think SF can not and will never do any right. I happen to think the reality is somewhere in between.

Sultan_of_Ping · 02-04-2020 3:11pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Apologies if this offends you, but I am with Vesthager on this. If she wins in her quest to have all corporations pay their fecking dues...then we all as Europeans benefit.

These companies(Amazon, Apple, Chrysler, Starbucks etc etc) are pulling a fast one(I would say a 'criminal one') and not paying anything near what they should be and the serfs are scrambling around on the ground in fear looking for their hats to grovel into ..do you agree with that?
Short termism here will hurt us in the long term.

We won't benefit - how will we benefit if FDI gravitates towards the centre of the EU?

I take it you are a business-person from an earlier post, so if we lose the ability to compete on tax, what will our bases for competition be? We are, at the end of the day, a small island on the periphery - with a very small market - what earthly reason is there for anyone to invest here, aside from tax?

There are no fiscal transfers, so taxes not paid here but paid in France or Germany won't turn up here - likewise there's no mechanism for subsidising or equalising salaries across the EU - is there?

And while they may not pay their due in corporation taxes, a lot of their money finds their way into the state's coffers through income tax, prsi, VAT, business rates, LPT etc etc

Do you really think we'll continue to have sustained tax revenues if there is a flight of FDI?

jh79 · 02-04-2020 3:11pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So why aren't we backing the EU?

Fear, is why we are backing the EU.

Or somebody is getting benefit from backing Apple.

Sorry, not closely following the thread. I was referring to how our tax structures benefits inward investment and the dangers of going rogue not specifically the Apple money.

Is it just me or have SF vanished?

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