Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

Inviere · 20-02-2020 5:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to say I think the steering wheel thing is a bloody genius idea and wouldn't mind it being legal. Rather than considering it as "changing setup" it can be considered as steering in another plane/dimension. A rare example of actual novel engineering for the last few years of F1. So long as it's controlled the same as power-steering is (fixed set-up/curve) then it could well be completely legal.

Agreed. I can see it being banned though, because if Merc are allowed to run it, it could finish the season before it even starts. Secondary effect then is the costs involved in other teams trying to replicate the tech. I personally wouldn't mind seeing it being allowed though, you have to reward ingenuity like this, it's a seriously nice idea. They seem very confident and open about it too, so who knows.

Just going back to eviltimeban's comment on how competitive RP will be...that'll be a very interesting one to watch. They could take a HUGE step forwards here and start nipping on the tails of Red Bull (assuming RB haven't pulled a Brawn themselves).

Frank Bullitt · 20-02-2020 5:33pm

Frank Bullitt · 20-02-2020 5:35pm

H3llR4iser · 20-02-2020 5:41pm

Problem is, it's something that changes the setup of the car on track - the toe in/out IS part of the setup and not part of the steering. In many ways, it's ideologically similar to the "watercooled brakes" trick of 1982 and the stunt Tyrrell pulled in 1984 with the lead-shot filled "water injection" system - have the car in a different state on track than it is during checks. The only real difference is that the Mercedes doesn't become blatantly illegal while running (Tyrrell managed to run their cars as much as 65kg underweight by pulling the water+lead trick).

the_pen_turner · 20-02-2020 5:46pm

im not sure its ilegal. merc were in consultation with the stewarts long before this so im sure all the rules have been thorally checked to see if its against the rules.
being through the sterring mechanism should keep it legal

HighLine · 20-02-2020 5:54pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I have to say I think the steering wheel thing is a bloody genius idea and wouldn't mind it being legal. Rather than considering it as "changing setup" it can be considered as steering in another plane/dimension. A rare example of actual novel engineering for the last few years of F1. So long as it's controlled the same as power-steering is (fixed set-up/curve) then it could well be completely legal.

As much as I am in the "anyone but Mercedes" camp, I would have to agree with this. Very clever stuff.

Frank Bullitt · 20-02-2020 6:04pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

im not sure its ilegal. merc were in consultation with the stewarts long before this so im sure all the rules have been thorally checked to see if its against the rules.
being through the sterring mechanism should keep it legal

All teams are though throughout development. Merc wouldn't tell them the specifics of it, but more of a close description.

It's a brilliant idea, but I can see it being banned.

It is driver activated, but it has to be using a servo or something to aid them to pull the wheels under that much pressure.

Remains to be seen how much of a benefit it will be on the straights, but it's a MASSIVE gain for tracks that maul front tires. You can cool the hot areas on the straights and get more life and performance out of them.

jv2000 · 20-02-2020 6:09pm

If I remember correctly it was Mercedes that also came up with the double DRS system back in 2011(?). Back then it was eventually banned but not until later in the season and some other teams had invested heavily in the system even creating superior systems. The Lotus had a very nice take on it. I can see something similar happening here. I am somewhat concerned about teams experimenting on their steering column in a bid to catch-up on Mercedes who have a large head start here. Rushed development on something like this especially with lower budgets could cause a serious accident. Anytime steering column is mentioned I always think of the Senna incident.

Frank Bullitt · 20-02-2020 6:20pm

OSI wrote: »

Some believe it’s actually intended to keep the tyres warm on longer straights.

It can do both, if the leading edge of a tire overheats in the corners, flattening it out on the straights will take the pressure off it. Right now, that edge remains the primary contact patch all throughout, so this would spread the heat better and add life.

I think at least.

20-02-2020 9:43pm

It's certainly arguable but what is the toe exactly? It's the position of the wheel at a certain. Which is controlled by the steering wheel. And it isn't bodywork.
Are there parameters for what the toe has to be in the regulations or have the teams complete leeway in it? If so then that's another bit on Merc's side. If they're found to be moving it outside allowed parameters when it can't be measured then that's a score against them.

Frank Bullitt · 20-02-2020 9:59pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It's certainly arguable but what is the toe exactly? It's the position of the wheel at a certain. Which is controlled by the steering wheel. And it isn't bodywork.
Are there parameters for what the toe has to be in the regulations or have the teams complete leeway in it? If so then that's another bit on Merc's side. If they're found to be moving it outside allowed parameters when it can't be measured then that's a score against them.

Chances are they will run it until FP1 in Oz, that's the earliest I think that the teams can protest it.

RB have already said it is illegal in their book (they would) due to the change in ride height from the change in toe.

GarIT · 20-02-2020 10:52pm

Sky Italy have said that the FIA said it is perfectly legal on technical regulations but will want to carry out a safety inspection. Mercedes have said they are sure it is legal and they will be running it for the season.

pjohnson · 20-02-2020 10:54pm

Jolyon explaining it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_uKHNJLSQs

PopePalpatine · 20-02-2020 10:57pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Problem is, it's something that changes the setup of the car on track - the toe in/out IS part of the setup and not part of the steering. In many ways, it's ideologically similar to the "watercooled brakes" trick of 1982 and the stunt Tyrrell pulled in 1984 with the lead-shot filled "water injection" system - have the car in a different state on track than it is during checks. The only real difference is that the Mercedes doesn't become blatantly illegal while running (Tyrrell managed to run their cars as much as 65kg underweight by pulling the water+lead trick).

IMO, the driver's involvement in this trick makes it more like the F-duct.

Frank Bullitt · 20-02-2020 11:47pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

IMO, the driver's involvement in this trick makes it more like the F-duct.

Some are saying it could be banned as being seen as a moveable aero device.

tipp_tipp_tipp · 21-02-2020 12:57am

whether it's legal or not, that is ingenious! Just when you think you've seen it all ........

Longing · 21-02-2020 1:40am

Don't be fooled it's active suspension through a loophole.

geotrig · 21-02-2020 9:58am

everyone scrambling and no one knows if it make that much of a difference yet !,:D this is what i love about f1 at times and its been too long for something to mad like this to show up and get the grid in a frenzy.
The thing I picked up from Allisons answers on this is they might have a few good unseen upgrades that could be more beneficial to them.

Inviere · 21-02-2020 10:02am

geotrig wrote: »

everyone scrambling and no one knows if it make that much of a difference yet !,:D this is what i love about f1 at times and its been too long for something to mad like this to show up and get the grid in a frenzy.

You'd have to imagine that the cost of the r&d of a system like this would be considerable...and that they've run the numbers first and seen it paying off. You're right though, sometimes ideas on paper don't translate to track.

The thing I picked up from Allisons answers on this is they might have a few good unseen upgrades that could be more beneficial to them.

I seen someone saying as much on Reddit the other day...that Merc are happy to have all eyes on the DAS system now, and nobody is paying attention to the rest of the car.

antodeco · 21-02-2020 10:31am

Yeah exactly. It's all a slight of hand trick I feel! But this is what F1 is all about. The ingenuity of engineering!

geotrig · 21-02-2020 10:37am

Inviere wrote: »

You'd have to imagine that the cost of the r&d of a system like this would be considerable...and that they've run the numbers first and seen it paying off. You're right though, sometimes ideas on paper don't translate to track.

I seen someone saying as much on Reddit the other day...that Merc are happy to have all eyes on the DAS system now, and nobody is paying attention to the rest of the car.

Aye, it probably does work though knowinig merc but does add a slight unkown to setup I would guess

pjohnson · 21-02-2020 10:53am

Its been banned for 2021 but fine for this year the FIA have ruled.

antodeco · 21-02-2020 11:38am

pjohnson wrote: »

Its been banned for 2021 but fine for this year the FIA have ruled.

Where did you see this? Trying to read up on it!

skipper_G · 21-02-2020 11:43am

antodeco wrote: »

Where did you see this? Trying to read up on it!

It's not a new ruling as such, it was in the 2021 technical regs when they were published last year. Something about rotational position of the wheel, seen it mentioned on motorsport.com earlier.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/das-not-allowed-2021-fia/4690176/

pjohnson · 21-02-2020 12:21pm

antodeco wrote: »

Where did you see this? Trying to read up on it!

I can't embed tweets but the link above is what I saw.

H3llR4iser · 21-02-2020 12:28pm

skipper_G wrote: »

It's not a new ruling as such, it was in the 2021 technical regs when they were published last year. Something about rotational position of the wheel, seen it mentioned on motorsport.com earlier.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/das-not-allowed-2021-fia/4690176/

Paradoxically, I have a feeling it might be what prompted the creation of the system - the "oh wait, this is not in this year's rules" moment. It's clearly something they're experimenting with. As I said before, if anyone was going to put a lot of effort in their 2020 car, that someone is Mercedes - they know it's not 100% guaranteed their domination will continue into 2021 with the technical reshuffle (and the departure of Aldo Costa), so they'll be all out to absolutely destroy 2020.

Don't be fooled by the "marginal gains" angle - if it works, it might make quite a difference. You basically run two different front-wheels setups, one on the long straights, one in the corners. The typical tradeoff of having some toe angle (trading corner insertion / stability for friction and tire wear on the straights) will be negated.

I'd be curious to see if the system works the other way as well - for now, the footage shows it reducing the toe-out of the front wheels. I wonder if it can be set up the other way around too, where it increases the toe out - essentially creating a three-setting system that could prove quite an advantage (0 toe on straights, toe-out on the turn in, toe-in through the middle and exit of corners).

Anyhow, what remains to be seen is if the teams need to submit, amongst other settings, the toe angles of the four wheels in parc ferme'. All of the legality discussion is centering around "it's steering/it's suspension", but what might be the blocker is the fact that value has to be communicated / measured to the race officials or not. If it is subject to measurement, then the car is illegal in race conditions as it's not conforming to the parc-ferme specs. Again, 1984 Tyrrell.

Expect drama to unfold in Melbourne.

skipper_G · 21-02-2020 12:39pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Paradoxically, I have a feeling it might be what prompted the creation of the system - the "oh wait, this is not in this year's rules" moment.

Agreed on this, it's a very specific thing to mention in the regs. Has all the hallmarks of a loophole being closed.

pjohnson · 21-02-2020 12:50pm

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Paradoxically, I have a feeling it might be what prompted the creation of the system - the "oh wait, this is not in this year's rules" moment. It's clearly something they're experimenting with. As I said before, if anyone was going to put a lot of effort in their 2020 car, that someone is Mercedes - they know it's not 100% guaranteed their domination will continue into 2021 with the technical reshuffle (and the departure of Aldo Costa), so they'll be all out to absolutely destroy 2020.

Don't be fooled by the "marginal gains" angle - if it works, it might make quite a difference. You basically run two different front-wheels setups, one on the long straights, one in the corners. The typical tradeoff of having some toe angle (trading corner insertion / stability for friction and tire wear on the straights) will be negated.

I'd be curious to see if the system works the other way as well - for now, the footage shows it reducing the toe-out of the front wheels. I wonder if it can be set up the other way around too, where it increases the toe out - essentially creating a three-setting system that could prove quite an advantage (0 toe on straights, toe-out on the turn in, toe-in through the middle and exit of corners).

Anyhow, what remains to be seen is if the teams need to submit, amongst other settings, the toe angles of the four wheels in parc ferme'. All of the legality discussion is centering around "it's steering/it's suspension", but what might be the blocker is the fact that value has to be communicated / measured to the race officials or not. If it is subject to measurement, then the car is illegal in race conditions as it's not conforming to the parc-ferme specs. Again, 1984 Tyrrell.

Expect drama to unfold in Melbourne.

All Merc would need to do is have a base/default position for whenever Hamilton/Bottas are turning off the car. If they have a constant base setting to use during parc ferme then the measurements would always match?

Joeface · 21-02-2020 12:55pm

I am curious to know this adjustment will actually work in Race conditions . It's a neat addition to the Tech in the car . but how does the car handle when your doing a steering adjustment for the straight , then going defensive into the turn "if" someone can get close enough , and your doing that adjustment to steering positions and also turning defensively . It's a lot of adjust ments under persure and surely it will change how the car feels at a given time .

the_pen_turner · 21-02-2020 1:03pm

Joeface wrote: »

I am curious to know this adjustment will actually work in Race conditions . It's a neat addition to the Tech in the car . but how does the car handle when your doing a steering adjustment for the straight , then going defensive into the turn "if" someone can get close enough , and your doing that adjustment to steering positions and also turning defensively . It's a lot of adjust ments under persure and surely it will change how the car feels at a given time .

my undestanding is that you set the car up in the default position for the bends and trickier parts where you are busy but on the straights you can pull the wheel to change the set up , it shouldnt be a problem with the extra time they have on the straights and less to worry bout

Formula 1 2020 - General Discussion Thread (See MOD warning on first post)

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