Rory McIlroy - 4 Time Major Winner

sReq | uTeK · 17-02-2020 5:24pm

Charleigh Inexpensive Electricity wrote: »

I think Rory deserves a little criticism for yesterday. The gap was clearly the putter, nothing more than hole 5 demonsrated as much.
Scott made an almost identical error, sinks the 2nd putt, takes his +2 and moves on. Rory missed a poor putt and two or three other putts, you'd expect him to sink.

T2G, outstanding once again but a number of shots, even the other wedge he fluffed before sinking the 2nd attempt. Now of course frustration after the 5th but perhaps a lack of composure.

Overall, a great week, the Genesis means little but it's about building good habits as the year progresses, he'll come away happy but certainly with some stuff to address.
Likely lots of short wedges around the green & the perpetual putter work in coming weeks.

Id argue the difference was course management, he didn't need to be as aggressive with the 2nd on 5. I understand WHY he did it, he was playing fantastic and just got a little greedy but he was in the lead and knowing where the Pin was to play it there was criminal. Apart from that hole and another dropped shot on 6 that he should have pard he played great golf all week.

moycullen14 · 17-02-2020 5:57pm

It seems like every weeks he tees up he's in contention. Look at Rahm and Koepke. Didn't feature at all much over the weekend. These are his serious rivals.
Ifs and buts, I know, but really two holes cost him the tournament. It's a measure of our expectations (well, mine anyway) that it was sort of disappointing that he didn't win. I expect him to win every time he tees it up. Only tiger in his prime could you say that about.

Tiger aside, he's the best I've seen in the last 30 years. Maybe Faldo late 80s/early 90s but that's it.

FixdePitchmark · 17-02-2020 7:33pm

What on earth is wrong with someone coming in and watching golf and expressing the opinion that Rory is a botler.

I know it is not a nice expression , but is a golf forum , they are watching golf and even the biggest Rory fans / Irish golf fans are not happy with Rory's performance over the last 4/5 years .

Rory has said as much himself.

The way you answer that criticism, is by answering them questions , to full on golf fans and to the passing bar stool fan. I love when golf captures the full public imagination. It rarely does.

Even the most serious golfers and fans understand certain golfers dont do well under pressure, it is real.

Look at liverpool, completely and utterly ridiculed for years , Dublin too.

Basically you respond in a way everyone sees and understands.

If Rory picked up two majors in a year , that would be the end of that.

Bubbaclaus · 17-02-2020 8:29pm

Are there any other sporting examples where calling the number 1 player in the world a bottler would be a valid criticism?

Messi failing to win anything with Argentina maybe?

Dav010 · 17-02-2020 8:45pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Are there any other sporting examples where calling the number 1 player in the world a bottler would be a valid criticism?

Messi failing to win anything with Argentina maybe?

Though not an individual, the sport I am most interested in is Rugby, going into the World Cup Ireland were No 1 in the world, yet I sat in a Stadium and watched them completely fluff their lines, they bottled it against Japan after taking an early lead. Caroline Wazniaki was world no 1 yet bottled it when it came to the majors. Luke Donald was world no 1 yet seemed to freeze when it came to the majors, I’m not sure if Brazil were close to the number 1 spot in 2014, but they sure bottled it on home soil, Andraiy Shevchenko won the Ballon D’or, a year later he joined Chelsea etc etc.

You would have to consider, a lot of World No 1’s may not so consistently flop on the last day of competition when winning is within their grasp. That is the criticism.

FixdePitchmark · 17-02-2020 9:11pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Are there any other sporting examples where calling the number 1 player in the world a bottler would be a valid criticism?

Messi failing to win anything with Argentina maybe?

Yes that is a fair post.

But Messi didn't get distracted, lack intensity and commitment, he has been the consummate professional for a solid 10 years. He has won a personal or team accolade in basically every season.

He was called a bottler in the world cup - and that was taken on board as a fair point and looked at.

Then someone took him on - Ronaldo and brought professionalism to another level.

It is an interesting analogy - because it highlights what is needed to be the best in any sport at present.

Rory is not going to shake the criticism until he return to that level of commitment and intensity and wins plenty of majors.

Just being world number 1 is not enough. Majors and multiple major wins will have to be part of it.

He is trying to do that now. I think he will do it.

I think he has seen , he has to change his ways , because all these other guys were trying , way harder, taken winning and losing way more serious.

Botler is a daft word for Rory, but he definitely let 4 years of some the best years of his career go. Years Tiger Woods wasn't even around.

And as has been said - some people admire that Rory is not such a robot and made choices to not take golf as intense as some of the very flawed characters who did.

I would have expected him to be near 8/9/10 majors at this point.

In them years I've had to sit there and watch likes of Watson, Walker, Woodland , Willet, Garcia, Z Johnson pick up majors.

I know majors are hard and in general winners are outstanding these days, but on a Sunday you are watching these majors , Rory smiling and laughing his way home - I genuinely at times wanted to kill him. :eek::D

GreeBo · 17-02-2020 9:33pm

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Id argue the difference was course management, he didn't need to be as aggressive with the 2nd on 5. I understand WHY he did it, he was playing fantastic and just got a little greedy but he was in the lead and knowing where the Pin was to play it there was criminal. Apart from that hole and another dropped shot on 6 that he should have pard he played great golf all week.

However, I do agree that he left a lot out there that he could have made with the putter that would have made the card look a lot better.

He was 44th in SG putting, but, for context, Scott was 27th.
He was 19th in SG Approaches.
Approaches from > 100 Yrds
Scott 3 - 27'8" - 38
McIlroy 28 - 33'2" - 37
So thats a 5-6 yard difference for the putt.
From 100-150 its even worse, (11'8" compared to 18') Thats over 2 yards, which is huge.

From 50 -125 he was 14' from 5 attempts

He was 44th in Proximity to the Hole from approaches. (41 feet)
He was 41st in Good Drive Percentage (76.79%)

I honestly dont see how anyone can say he was anything other than "ok" Tee to Green.
Its very hard to hole putts when they are from miles away (He was 16th in average distance of putts holed, so not terrible)

xgronkjabv6pcl · 17-02-2020 9:58pm

GreeBo wrote: »

He was 44th in SG putting, but, for context, Scott was 27th.
He was 19th in SG Approaches.
Approaches from > 100 Yrds
Scott 3 - 27'8" - 38
McIlroy 28 - 33'2" - 37
So thats a 5-6 yard difference for the putt.
From 100-150 its even worse, (11'8" compared to 18') Thats over 2 yards, which is huge.

From 50 -125 he was 14' from 5 attempts

He was 44th in Proximity to the Hole from approaches. (41 feet)
He was 41st in Good Drive Percentage (76.79%)

I honestly dont see how anyone can say he was anything other than "ok" Tee to Green.
Its very hard to hole putts when they are from miles away (He was 16th in average distance of putts holed, so not terrible)

You're being very very selective in your statistics. If you look at the overall pic from the event, McIlroy finished 4th in SG T2G, not quite sure how anyone could call that "ok".

SG: Tee-to-Green

1. Hideki Matsuyama (12.436)

2. Bryson DeChambeau (10.564)

3. Adam Scott (10.356)

4. Rory McIlroy (9.024)

5. Patrick Cantlay (7.308)

Going to that level of granularity for one event throws up lots of noise, his performance T2G was far more than "ok

Russman · 19-02-2020 12:56pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Yes that is a fair post.

But Messi didn't get distracted, lack intensity and commitment, he has been the consummate professional for a solid 10 years. He has won a personal or team accolade in basically every season.

He was called a bottler in the world cup - and that was taken on board as a fair point and looked at.

Then someone took him on - Ronaldo and brought professionalism to another level.

It is an interesting analogy - because it highlights what is needed to be the best in any sport at present.

Rory is not going to shake the criticism until he return to that level of commitment and intensity and wins plenty of majors.

Just being world number 1 is not enough. Majors and multiple major wins will have to be part of it.

He is trying to do that now. I think he will do it.

I think he has seen , he has to change his ways , because all these other guys were trying , way harder, taken winning and losing way more serious.

Botler is a daft word for Rory, but he definitely let 4 years of some the best years of his career go. Years Tiger Woods wasn't even around.

And as has been said - some people admire that Rory is not such a robot and made choices to not take golf as intense as some of the very flawed characters who did.

I would have expected him to be near 8/9/10 majors at this point.

In them years I've had to sit there and watch likes of Watson, Walker, Woodland , Willet, Garcia, Z Johnson pick up majors.

I know majors are hard and in general winners are outstanding these days, but on a Sunday you are watching these majors , Rory smiling and laughing his way home - I genuinely at times wanted to kill him. :eek::D

Have to disagree with you slightly here, Fix.
Just because someone isn't grimacing, stropping, being stern and grumpy, getting visibly angry etc etc doesn't mean they're not trying or not interested.
Different players have different ways of trying to perform their best. Intensity doesn't come into it. Golf isn't like other sports where a rocket from a manager to try harder to run faster can sometimes work. Even some of the best footballers ever had an air of nonchalance about them at their best. Granted some plodders have made themselves good through hard work, but the really great ones had an edge in talent too.

Totally agree with you he should be closer to double figures win majors by now. For me the one he really threw away was the Masters Reed won, but in Augusta, anything can happen, so I might give him a pass on that.

With regard to his stats and strokes gained - I haven't looked into it, but my sense with the wedges is that he's a lot more consistent now, i.e. most times to, say, within 18 feet (or whatever it is), as opposed to hitting one to 2 feet on one hole and the one to 40 feet on the next. That's pure gut feeling from watching him and may have no basis at all !

GreeBo · 19-02-2020 2:22pm

Russman wrote: »

Just because someone isn't grimacing, stropping, being stern and grumpy, getting visibly angry etc etc doesn't mean they're not trying or not interested.

But Rory has sad multiple times in the past that his attitude wasn't where it should be. (I've linked to article before on this thread)

Sure we can incorrectly read things into someone's demeanor, but if the person themselves is saying it surely we have to believe it?

xgronkjabv6pcl · 19-02-2020 2:30pm

GreeBo wrote: »

But Rory has sad multiple times in the past that his attitude wasn't where it should be. (I've linked to article before on this thread)

Sure we can incorrectly read things into someone's demeanor, but if the person themselves is saying it surely we have to believe it?

That's a false equivalence though.

Just because Rory has said in the past that his attitude isn't where it should be at times doesn't mean that when he's smiling it's a sign he's not focused.

GreeBo · 19-02-2020 2:38pm

Charleigh Inexpensive Electricity wrote: »

That's a false equivalence though.

Just because Rory has said in the past that his attitude isn't where it should be at times doesn't mean that when he's smiling it's a sign he's not focused.

I didn't in any way state or imply that the two were equivalent.

xgronkjabv6pcl · 19-02-2020 2:44pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I didn't in any way state or imply that the two were equivalent.

Then what was the point in asking why we can't believe him when he says that?

Nobody said we don't believe him? I just don't recall him saying "When I smile, that means I'm not serious"

Dr. Bre · 19-02-2020 2:51pm

I think Rory will win in Mexico this weekend

Russman · 19-02-2020 2:56pm

GreeBo wrote: »

But Rory has sad multiple times in the past that his attitude wasn't where it should be. (I've linked to article before on this thread)

Sure we can incorrectly read things into someone's demeanor, but if the person themselves is saying it surely we have to believe it?

I don't doubt for a second that his attitude hasn't been what it should be at times. Its more the idea that one has to conform to someone's expectations of what "trying hard" should look like that I feel is incorrect.
Tiger had a certain demeanor on course, other great players are/were different. There isn't a one size fits all when it comes to showing emotion on course IMO.

Raisins · 19-02-2020 3:18pm

Harrington comes out with cringe comments all the time. He’s still loved. His demeanour isn’t parsed and analysed like rory’s. I think Rory would get much more latitude if he was from the republic. He’s loved in the north.

Raisins · 19-02-2020 5:04pm

Charleigh Inexpensive Electricity wrote: »

He would be afforded more latitude if his perceived talents matched his perceived accomplishments. The problem is people expected Rory to be the 2nd coming of Tiger and he isn't that, he's still among the elite he's just not a Top 2 golfer ever.

The perception is wide of the mark, it’s totally skewed by how good a driver he is. His achievements so far have matched his talent and ability IMO.

HighLine · 19-02-2020 5:32pm

Rory makes a stance on the Premier Golf League situation.

https://twitter.com/RexHoggardGC/status/1230164980957433856?s=20

https://twitter.com/Daniel_Rapaport/status/1230166328150880256?s=20

GreeBo · 19-02-2020 6:49pm

Raisins wrote: »

The perception is wide of the mark, it’s totally skewed by how good a driver he is. His achievements so far have matched his talent and ability IMO.

+1
He hits it miles off the tee but the rest of his game, on average, doesn't match up.

LuckyGent88 · 19-02-2020 8:33pm

GreeBo wrote: »

+1
He hits it miles off the tee but the rest of his game, on average, doesn't match up.

So in 2019 he was;
1st in strokes gained off the tee.
12th in strokes gained approach to green.
19th in around the greens
24th in putting
1st strokes gained tee to green
1st strokes gained total
1st in scoring average

This season so far he is basically the same bar worse off in putting but yeah he only has his distance off the tee!!!!

Dav010 · 19-02-2020 8:45pm

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

So in 2019 he was;
1st in strokes gained off the tee.
12th in strokes gained approach to green.
19th in around the greens
24th in putting
1st strokes gained tee to green
1st strokes gained total
1st in scoring average

This season so far he is basically the same bar worse off in putting but yeah he only has his distance off the tee!!!!

Are people really interested in strokes gained off the tee and strokes gained tee to green? I ask because in all the years I’ve been playing golf and talking to people about it, I don’t think I have ever heard these type of stats discussed. It’s more about the score on the card, the wins, and the wins thrown away by playing badly when the pressure is on. Maybe it’s the way golf is discussed now, to me it’s like a couple of geeks discussing equations rather than a sport. But, everyone to their own, I suppose it’s now the norm where every opinion has to be backed with statistical analysis, but it ain’t half boring to read.

It doesn’t matter how many “strokes are gained” elsewhere on the course, if your putting isn’t that good.

GreeBo · 19-02-2020 8:51pm

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

So in 2019 he was;
1st in strokes gained off the tee.
12th in strokes gained approach to green.
19th in around the greens
24th in putting
1st strokes gained tee to green
1st strokes gained total
1st in scoring average

This season so far he is basically the same bar worse off in putting but yeah he only has his distance off the tee!!!!

Sorry, you are 100% correct
He that shall not be slighted on this thread can of course do no wrong.

The reason he hasn't won a major in forever is due to sun spots and global warming.
It's not because, from your own numbers, he is outside the top 10 and in one important metric, outside the top 20 in the scoring areas. It's almost like the rest of his game doesn't match his driving...

Is there a separate prize giving ceremony for the guy who is really good at getting the ball near but not in the hole?

Bubbaclaus · 19-02-2020 8:54pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry, you are 100% correct
He that shall not be slighted on this thread can of course do no wrong.

The reason he hasn't won a major in forever is due to sun spots and global warming.
It's not because, from your own numbers, he is outside the top 10 and in one important metric, outside the top 20 in the scoring areas. It's almost like the rest of his game doesn't match his driving...

Is there a separate prize giving ceremony for the guy who is really good at getting the ball near but not in the hole?

You ok hun?

GreeBo · 19-02-2020 8:57pm

Charleigh Inexpensive Electricity wrote: »

Strokes gained equates to the score on the scorecard, that's quite literally what it is.
Furthermore, as boring as it is to those who don't appreciate and/or understand, it must be more exciting than reading poor subjective opinions cloaked in ulterior motives :rolleyes:

Strokes gained off the tee and subsequently dropped getting the ball in the hole are as useful as a chocolate teapot.

Your childish reaction of personal attacks anytime someone slights your hero is pathetic, the fact that you are continually allowed away with it is a separate problem.
Time to add you to my Rory fan club list.

Bubbaclaus · 19-02-2020 8:58pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Strokes gained off the tee and subsequently dropped getting the ball in the hole are as useful as a chocolate teapot.

Your childish reaction of personal attacks anytime someone slights your hero is pathetic, the fact that you are continually allowed away with it is a separate problem.
Time to add you to my Rory fan club list.

Definitely not ok hun

Bubbaclaus · 19-02-2020 9:04pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Ah I see, I thought strokes gained was a players score verses the average for the field, but you say it is the score on the scorecard, literally. Thank you for the correction. Thanks to you, I now understand and appreciate what strokes gained means.

Strokes gained in many ways tells you more than the score on the scorecard.

Hard to gauge if a player shooting 3 under played well that day if just looking at the score in isolation. If they have a stokes gained of +3 you know they are doing well.

Par is just a number. How you are doing against the field is important.

LuckyGent88 · 19-02-2020 9:17pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Sorry, you are 100% correct
He that shall not be slighted on this thread can of course do no wrong.

The reason he hasn't won a major in forever is due to sun spots and global warming.
It's not because, from your own numbers, he is outside the top 10 and in one important metric, outside the top 20 in the scoring areas. It's almost like the rest of his game doesn't match his driving...

Is there a separate prize giving ceremony for the guy who is really good at getting the ball near but not in the hole?

Looks like I touched a nerve. I was simply indicating that your point was bull**** that all he has is his driving. He is easily one of the best short game and bunker players at the moment.

You are correct in saying it still comes down to putting and he concedes basically a half a stroke each round due to this.

People including myself gave out about his wedge game—he went an improved that massively. People questioned his putting and he has improved that also. Is it top level putting, NO but with all the chances his long game gives him he ain’t going to hole everything.

It’s like people expect him to win every week. Tiger didn’t even do that ffs.

GreeBo · 19-02-2020 10:04pm

LuckyGent88 wrote: »

Looks like I touched a nerve. I was simply indicating that your point was bull**** that all he has is his driving. He is easily one of the best short game and bunker players at the moment

That would be a super reply if that's what I had actually said.
I said the rest of his game doesn't stand up to his driving, which you went on to prove with stats, so thanks for that.

I for one don't expect him to win every week, I just don't think he is as good as certain posters on here do.

Remind me · 19-02-2020 10:06pm

GreeBo wrote: »

That would be a super reply if that's what I had actually said.
I said the rest of his game doesn't stand up to his driving, which you went on to prove with stats, so thanks for that.

I for one don't expect him to win every week, I just don't think he is as good as certain posters on here do.

He’s world number 1 FFS

GreeBo · 19-02-2020 10:11pm

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Strokes gained in many ways tells you more than the score on the scorecard.

Hard to gauge if a player shooting 3 under played well that day if just looking at the score in isolation. If they have a stokes gained of +3 you know they are doing well.

Par is just a number. How you are doing against the field is important.

Crazy idea here, so bear with me.
Could we perhaps keep some sort of track of each player's score for each round and use that to compare their performance?

We could also award some sort of prize to the person at the top of this list?

Nah, I'm crazy, that will never catch on.

"Par is just a number"
Classic.

Rory McIlroy - 4 Time Major Winner

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