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St Annes Park Planning Application

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Comments

  • #352
    ixoy
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 17,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    There's definitely a whiff of reverse-snobbery from some posters here and elsewhere (/r/Ireland on reddit for example): "You guys have a nice place, now you'll have your standards lowered haha".

    You can point out valid concerns - lack of schooling, saturated capacity for public
    transportation, but it just gets ignored (not addressed) largely with a "Well we have it worse".


  • #353
    downtheroad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,276 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    Can a mod change St Anns to St Anne's in the title? Most of the complainers on here probably don't even realise the incorrect spelling of the park's name.


  • #354
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    downtheroad wrote: »
    Can a mod change St Anns to St Anne's in the title? Most of the complainers on here probably don't even realise the incorrect spelling of the park's name.
    Done.


  • #355
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭dubrov


    downtheroad wrote:
    Can a mod change St Anns to St Anne's in the title? Most of the complainers on here probably don't even realise the incorrect spelling of the park's name.

    Yes because spelling should be taken into account when approving planning. applications


  • #356
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,564 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    I'm absolutely delighted this got the green light.

    People moaning there isn't enough school places!?

    As if there has ever been ONE child in this country who didn't get into a school because there was no spaces!!

    Snobbery at its finest.

    NIMBYISM at its finest.


  • #357
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,000 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Before I get a ban here which is looking likely, would anyone think that objections to a development would be more successful in so called high end areas or not? Just wondered.


  • #358
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,155 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Jinglejangle69 wrote:
    I'm absolutely delighted this got the green light.


    First round is over. I've no doubt it will be in court again. In fact the previous one is still in front of the court.


  • #359
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    You can really add to that list if you want to. Howth Lodge Hotel, St Lawrence Hotel already developed. Bailey Court in the middle of Howth village is going to be a massive development. Deer park has been sold & again a truly massive development is planned.

    Posters claiming that there is no development in these areas don't know Dublin at all. Howth probably has one of biggest percentage of development in Dublin in recent times especially with Bailey Court and Deer Park.
    Santa Sabina: 96 units
    Mansions beside Howth Hill Lodge: 20

    Baily Court/Edros: 160
    Techcrete: 500+
    Deer Park has been sold in 2 parcels. One between Corr Castle and Howth Castle and looks like ~200 units possible.
    Tetrarch have Howth Castle, Golf club and enivrons with ~450 acres. Post gold course development there will be ~200 acres left over so available for development.


    So that is around 1000 units (without any figure for the Tetrarch property which could easily be another 500) where only 200 is the development plan.


  • #360
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,000 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    First round is over. I've no doubt it will be in court again. In fact the previous one is still in front of the court.

    Just wondered who is paying for all the court cases?


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  • #361
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    As if there has ever been ONE child in this country who didn't get into a school because there was no spaces!!
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=children+without+school+places


    30 in Cork just 2 weeks ago.


  • #362
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Just wondered who is paying for all the court cases?
    The locals raise their own funds. Unfortunately there are no rich benfactors mainly regular folk with modest contributions. If won, most costs get recovered, for the next round.


  • #363
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,564 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    tricky D wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=children+without+school+places


    30 in Cork just 2 weeks ago.

    Hold on now.

    Kids with special needs is a whole different ball game.


  • #364
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,000 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    tricky D wrote: »
    The locals raise their own funds. Unfortunately there are no rich benfactors mainly regular folk with modest contributions. If won, most costs get recovered, for the next round.

    I have no idea, but given the area I would have thought that there may be a few high end donations to the cause.

    This kind of court stuff would not happen in other places though, in reality.

    People are trying to live, pay mortgages and childcare and commuting costs and could not contemplate the costs of such an objection through the courts.


  • #365
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,155 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    tricky D wrote:
    So that is around 1000 units (without any figure for the Tetrarch property which could easily be another 500) where only 200 is the development plan.


    All of this in such a small area. I live in Dublin 5 so have no skin in the game for Howth but even I can see how over developed the area has become


  • #366
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,000 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    All of this in such a small area. I live in Dublin 5 so have no skin in the game for Howth but even I can see how over developed the area has become

    It is life in the Capital. I have had to deal with it too. We all should. For the sake of everyone.

    Otherwise we need to move out to the country areas.

    But unless we can afford it, the high end areas will always be protected, primarily because they don't really have places to build on anymore now. (apart from the Golf Clubs). Look up the Grange, Stackstown, Elm Park, and so on.


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  • #367
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    Hold on now.

    Kids with special needs is a whole different ball game.
    The 30 kids in Cork are not special needs.

    There are more of the same linked on the 2nd page of results.
    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    I have no idea, but given the area I would have thought that there may be a few high end donations to the cause.
    Nope, no high end contributions. Remember the rich didn't get rich by putting their hands in their pockets, or how ever the saying goes.


  • #368
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,155 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Spanish Eyes wrote:
    Just wondered who is paying for all the court cases?


    Same as last time I'd imagine. Thousands of people raised the money & clubbed together to fund the case. The case they won I should add. Planning shouldn't have been granted.


  • #369
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,155 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Spanish Eyes wrote:
    I have no idea, but given the area I would have thought that there may be a few high end donations to the cause.


    You really haven't a clue about the area at all. I assume you live in Cork or somewhere far away. Money was raised from all over Dublin. People tra from all over Dublin to use the park, beach etc. I know people from Cabra, Finglas, Coolock etc helped raise money. You do realise that it's not just Clontarf residents objecting to this development beside the park


  • #370
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,000 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Same as last time I'd imagine. Thousands of people raised the money & clubbed together to fund the case. The case they won I should add. Planning shouldn't have been granted.

    OK maybe not, but we shall see what happens going forward.

    A year or two ago it was NEVER going to happen either. I reckon it will be granted and built upon with conditions for the Geese perhaps.


  • #371
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,564 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    tricky D wrote: »
    The 30 kids in Cork are not special needs.

    There are more of the same linked on the 2nd page of results.

    Nope, no high end contributions. Remember the rich didn't get rich by putting their hands in their pockets, or how ever the saying goes.

    "Nearly 30 children living in a town in County Cork have been warned that there MAY be no place for them in secondary school next year"

    So my point still stands.

    And your attempts to bend the truth to suit your NIMBY crusade falls flat.


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  • #372
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,155 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Spanish Eyes wrote:
    A year or two ago it was NEVER going to happen either. I reckon it will be granted and built upon with conditions for the Geese perhaps.

    If they win this case there is a strong chance that the flawed fast track system might be outlawed & if they reapply they will have to deal with the planning department.

    FG have destroyed Dublin for generations to follow


  • #373
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,000 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    You really haven't a clue about the area at all. I assume you live in Cork or somewhere far away. Money was raised from all over Dublin. People tra from all over Dublin to use the park, beach etc. I know people from Cabra, Finglas, Coolock etc helped raise money. You do realise that it's not just Clontarf residents objecting to this development beside the park

    Well it certainly is not those from Cork anyway. They are as far away from this as Mars now and couldn't care less about St Anne's. All politics is local. Remember


  • #374
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    listen you hypocrites, you are so concerned about birds and the wildlife? knock down your houses in that area, which were once green fields believe it or not and let nature take over... Practice what you preach!


  • #375
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    If they win this case there is a strong chance that the flawed fast track system might be outlawed & if they reapply they will have to deal with the planning department.

    FG have destroyed Dublin for generations to follow

    flawed fast track? whats the flaw for you? it doesnt take ten years to get permission for some watered down project?


  • #376
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    "Nearly 30 children living in a town in County Cork have been warned that there MAY be no place for them in secondary school next year"

    So my point still stands.

    And your attempts to bend the truth to suit your NIMBY crusade falls flat.
    Right now they have no places. And the other 96 in Carrickmacross and Skerries have no places.


    You said 'As if there has ever been ONE child' yet a basic search has it up to 126.



    Also what about the 500 special needs, are they not in greater need of appropriate education infrastructure.


  • #377
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    listen you hypocrites, you are so concerned about birds and the wildlife? knock down your houses in that area, which were once green fields believe it or not and let nature take over... Practice what you preach!
    Going to the High Court is very expensive so battles need to be chosen wisely ie. the legal matter that is most likely to get a win. In the case of St Annes the Birds Directive was the best route.



    There are still plenty other good reasons why it is bad planning.


    As for flaws, there are plenty listed in the thread.


  • #378
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    tricky D wrote: »
    Going to the High Court is very expensive so battles need to be chosen wisely ie. the legal matter that is most likely to get a win. In the case of St Annes the Birds Directive was the best route.



    There are still plenty other good reasons why it is bad planning.


    As for flaws, there are plenty listed in the thread.

    please give me a good reason, why we should build 650 homes?


  • #379
    Holly13
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Holly13


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    listen you hypocrites, you are so concerned about birds and the wildlife? knock down your houses in that area, which were once green fields believe it or not and let nature take over... Practice what you preach!

    People come from all over North Dublin and beyond to enjoy St. Anne’s Park and the seafront along Clontarf and Raheny. These amenities are not just used by locals.


  • #380
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Holly13 wrote: »
    People come from all over North Dublin and beyond to enjoy St. Anne’s Park and the seafront along Clontarf and Raheny. These amenities are not just used by locals.

    this land is fenced off and private. Are they tresspassing ? can they not enjoy whatever acreage the current park is or would the few acres take away from their experience? :rolleyes:

    all the beaches and coast road walk there isnt good enough?


  • #381
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    please give me a good reason, why we should build 650 homes?
    Because the infrastructure is not adequate on many fronts. It is already in the thread if you care to read.


    That said, some development in St Annes would be fine with me, just not the Marlet/Crekav arrogant stuff them in and stack them high and to hell with the consequences attitude. Obviously you are lucky not to have come across this developer.


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  • #382
    Holly13
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Holly13


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Well it certainly is not those from Cork anyway. They are as far away from this as Mars now and couldn't care less about St Anne's. All politics is local. Remember

    Have you ever been to St. Anne’s Park? It is a green space for. Northsiders in general, not just people who live in Dublin 3 and 5.


  • #383
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    tricky D wrote: »
    Because the infrastructure is not adequate on many fronts. It is already in the thread if you care to read.


    That said, some development in St Annes would be fine with me, just not the Marlet/Crekav arrogant stuff them in and stack them high and to hell with the consequences attitude. Obviously you are lucky not to have come across this developer.

    hang on , ABP the highest planning body in the land have approved this, so they are wrong?


  • #384
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,853 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Holly13 wrote: »
    Have you ever been to St. Anne’s Park? It is a green space for. Northsiders in general, not just people who live in Dublin 3 and 5.

    dont the northsiders also have the largest urban park in europe in phoenix park? botanic gardens etc?


  • #385
    Holly13
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Holly13


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    this land is fenced off and private. Are they tresspassing ? can they not enjoy whatever acreage the current park is or would the few acres take away from their experience? :rolleyes:

    all the beaches and coast road walk there isnt good enough?

    Is this development going to be car free? If not then yes, it will affect the rest of the park


  • #386
    Holly13
    Registered Users Posts: 61 ✭✭Holly13


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    dont the northsiders also have the largest urban park in europe in phoenix park? botanic gardens etc?

    That’s Northwest Dublin, very awkward to get to if you live in Northeast Dublin


  • #387
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,000 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Oh dear, here we go again. Who has the best park or whatever.

    I think the Phoenix Park shades it by a country mile! And Mickelleen lives there too as does the American Ambassador, and it is amazing.


  • #388
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    hang on , ABP the highest planning body in the land have approved this, so they are wrong?
    Yes.



    You do realise that the SHD legislation has removed many sensible requirements for developments over 100 units, removed the appeals process, can now ignore established planning principles and orders, apply urban rules inappropriately in suburban locations, ignore legal requirements, are unable to see basic issues in applications due to removal of skilled planners in favour of political appointees/cronies.


    Issues in ABP and in development in general have been with us or decades and little has ever changed for the better.


  • #389
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,000 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Holly13 wrote: »
    Have you ever been to St. Anne’s Park? It is a green space for. Northsiders in general, not just people who live in Dublin 3 and 5.

    Nice, I know it well. Lived in Foxfield Park for a few years in my youth as a lodger.

    The sea walk was much more interesting to me at the time. But there ya go.


  • #390
    dubrov
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,609 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Holly13 wrote:
    People come from all over North Dublin and beyond to enjoy St. Anne’s Park and the seafront along Clontarf and Raheny. These amenities are not just used by locals.

    I go to St Anne's all the time. This development will have zero impact on my enjoyment of the park.

    Let's be honest here,. Objections will be from locals only apart from those who go from cause to cause constantly objecting


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  • #391
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,155 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    flawed fast track? whats the flaw for you? it doesnt take ten years to get permission for some watered down project?




    You don't see that several courts have overturned decisions made by the fast track process as flawed? You don't see that in now cost's 100s of thousands of euro to bring these decisions to court to prove them unlawful or incorrect decisions?


    adjective
    adjective: flawed


    h having or characterized by a fundamental weakness or imperfection.


  • #392
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    This development is great news for the city.


  • #393
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,264 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I can see the narrow bit of Vernon Avenue having to go one way, unless this is a car free setup.


  • #394
    downtheroad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,276 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    Ardilaun Court, a new development next to this site, had 3 bedroom houses for sale at €665,000. 1 bedroom apartments were €375,000 and 2 bedroom units for €540,000.

    Great to get more properties built in Dublin but these units will not be affordable for most, if they are even made available for sale. If not they will be rented at huge cost and the moaning will move from we don't build enough to we charge too much.


  • #395
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,497 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    downtheroad wrote: »
    Ardilaun Court, a new development next to this site, had 3 bedroom houses for sale at €665,000. 1 bedroom apartments were €375,000 and 2 bedroom units for €540,000.

    Great to get more properties built in Dublin but these units will not be affordable for most, if they are even made available for sale. If not they will be rented at huge cost and the moaning will move from we don't build enough to we charge too much.

    True but rich people need housing too and housing provided for these will.meannless competition down the food chain.


  • #396
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    dubrov wrote: »
    In fairness, if you don't believe this development will meet the demands of its new residents then you won't believe anywhere in Dublin will.

    With a massive local park, high desirability and proximity to the dart station, I would have thought it's exactly the sort of place where building should occur

    The parking spaces being provided with the St Anne's development will not in any way match expected car ownership in these expensive apartments. So there will be up to 200 extra cars parked along local roads blocking access to St Anne's Park.

    The lands being developed are important feeding grounds for Brent geese. There are numerous brownfield sites that could be developed for apartment living in Dublin without impacting on ecology and important green spaces. There is already a shortage of pitches in many parts of Dublin and the population is still increasing.

    We need to preserve our parks and pitches for the next generation. By your logic why not build on Croke Park, St Stephens Green and the Aviva?


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  • #397
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,155 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    spurious wrote:
    I can see the narrow bit of Vernon Avenue having to go one way, unless this is a car free setup.


    I agree. Personally I think this needs to be done anyway. It's been bad down that end for a long time now


  • #398
    forgottenhills
    Registered Users Posts: 441 ✭✭forgottenhills


    dubrov wrote: »
    I go to St Anne's all the time. This development will have zero impact on my enjoyment of the park.

    Let's be honest here,. Objections will be from locals only apart from those who go from cause to cause constantly objecting

    It will if you cannot find a parking place in the vicinity. This development is not providing nearly enough parking places for the expected car ownership of the new residents. So they will be parking their cars wherever they can in roads around the park.

    There are plenty of development sites in Dublin without resorting to building on parks and pitches and on important ecological sites which are crucial for a healthy society.


  • #399
    downtheroad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,276 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I agree. Personally I think this needs to be done anyway. It's been bad down that end for a long time now

    One way from Vernon Avenue down to the seafront makes sense. Belgrove Road would end up taking the traffic in the other direction which wouldn't please the residents of that road. Can't keep everyone happy unfortunately.


  • #400
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,040 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    tricky D wrote: »
    You do realise that the SHD legislation has removed many sensible requirements for developments over 100 units, removed the appeals process, can now ignore established planning principles and orders, apply urban rules inappropriately in suburban locations, ignore legal requirements, are unable to see basic issues in applications due to removal of skilled planners in favour of political appointees/cronies.


    Issues in ABP and in development in general have been with us or decades and little has ever changed for the better.

    That is complete nonsense. ABP heard the appeals so going straight to them only cuts out the middle man and speeds up getting to the same end decision. And ABP are far more qualified to make these decisions than county council staff.

    Do you have examples of political appointees/cronies in ABP or are you just hitting the anti-establishment buzz words? Many County Development Plans have been shown to be totally inadequate. They were approved by Councillors who have been open to outside influences and corruption. The executive side of CoCos wanted houses everywhere regardlessof proper planning so they can collect charges and levies which they were reliant on for their funding. Overruling that and having national guidelines is far more transparent.

    If left in the hands of CoCos, almost all new housing would be on greenfields so the Councillors don't have to listen to complaints. That model is totally unsustainable and has led to the poor infrastructure provision we see. We just couldn't keep going until all of Meath, Kildare and Wicklow are build on with car dependant estates. The refocus towards development in urban areas and densification is needed but it was never going to come from CoCos.


  • #401
    hots
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,200 ✭✭✭hots


    I don't really mind that they're building on pitches, or the density (we need far more dense developments), it's not really part of the park and St Anne's is still massive and will be there to be enjoyed. The real issue is that the infrastructure isn't there for the basics like PT and parking. I don't live particularly close anymore, but the congestion on the public transport options for that area is far far worse than I've seen anywhere else on the northside, despite being served by the dart and a bus corridor of sorts. At the very least they need to create a genuine bus lane and increase the services there before they add to this problem. It's not nimbyism, it's just practical.


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