M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

hans aus dtschl

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The N72 option seems most logical and would be my preference.

Another good option would be to route via the N22 / Tralee.

I presume that this is in addition to, and not in lieu of M20 from Blarney to Patrickswell? In which case I agree.

AugustusMinimus

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I presume that this is in addition to, and not in lieu of M20 from Blarney to Patrickswell? In which case I agree.

Complete replacement with the N20 being retrofitted as a boreen.

Pete_Cavan

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The EU want the line reopened as do Shannon Foynes Port company.

Where are you getting that the EU want the line reopened? Ten-T requires a motorway standard connection but not rail AFAIK.

Cookiemunster

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Where are you getting that the EU want the line reopened? Ten-T requires a motorway standard connection but not rail AFAIK.

It stated in an answer from Shane Ross to a question on the Foynes to Limerick rail line in the Dail last summer. https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2018-07-24/2199/

In relation to progress underway in relation to Limerick to Foynes railway, scoping and feasibility studies on the reopening of the line, co-funded by Shannon Foynes Port Company (SFPC) and the EU were completed in 2014-2016. SFPC has since also commissioned Irish Rail to undertake a detailed design of the line, which is expected to be completed later this year. I understand that completion of this work can then inform future decisions regarding the reinstatement of this rail line in terms of hinterland connectivity necessary to accommodate the future expansion of the port and add efficiency to the national supply chain. It is noted that a key requirement for a core port under the Trans European Network (Ten-t) Regulations is that rail connection will be in place by 2030.

Isambard

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Complete replacement with the N20 being retrofitted as a boreen.

It's already a boreen.

Baldilocks

marno21 wrote: »

New Project Ireland 2040 documents published today. Here's where the M20 project is currently at:



The documents mention that the scheme will go to tender in 2024. By that going on current timelines, it means a 2025 start and a 2028/29 opening

https://www.gov.ie/en/press-release/b701fc-minister-donohoe-publishes-project-ireland-2040-updates-progress-and/

If it's not going to tender until 2024, then can someone please advise.....
WTF are they doing for the next 3/4 yrs???? Surely route choice cannot take that long??

Bass Reeves

Baldilocks wrote: »

If it's not going to tender until 2024, then can someone please advise.....
WTF are they doing for the next 3/4 yrs???? Surely route choice cannot take that long??

It is unlikely that it will even got to tender at that stage.12-24 months for route selection, EIA and them about the same again for planning to be sorted

Cork Trucker

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is unlikely that it will even got to tender at that stage.12-24 months for route selection, EIA and them about the same again for planning to be sorted

I’d expect an M20 Steering Group of objectors you he set up during this time, it’s becoming the norm now

Idbatterim

Baldilocks wrote: »

If it's not going to tender until 2024, then can someone please advise.....
WTF are they doing for the next 3/4 yrs???? Surely route choice cannot take that long??

no doubt multiple public consultations, theyll probably have one for the effected wildlife too. All the have to do is stall it enough, recession hits, BINGO!

they love reinventing the wheel here, no doubt plenty of money in the planning etc too for all the crayon routes! Has something changed since the previous proposal? I know with dublin metro, there are some improvement with the current plans v metro north, but its slightly different than this project...

niloc1951

prunudo wrote: »

My take on that is that they are exploring all options. However, none of the other routes address the issue that the n20 itself needs to be upgraded and towns bypassed.

I recently drove the old N8 route which has had a lot of repair and maintenance since the M8 took the through traffic off it. The reduced traffic load now makes inter town sections much safer and less stressfull also even though much of the route is now regional road classification (R639) it has a 100km/h speed limit on many sections.

alias no.9

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

The N72 option seems most logical and would be my preference.

Another good option would be to route via the N22 / Tralee.

If you're following the Tralee option then it would be foolhardy not to consider the N71 route between Cork and Killarney along with the rewilding of the entire length of the N40.

alanucc

alias no.9 wrote: »

If you're following the Tralee option then it would be foolhardy not to consider the N71 route between Cork and Killarney along with the rewilding of the entire length of the N40.

Forget motorways, they should also consider the option of a ferry from Cork to Limerick, picking up major stops at Bantry, Dingle, Fenit, Tarbert and Foynes! :P

Cork Trucker

alanucc wrote: »

Forget motorways, they should also consider the option of a ferry from Cork to Limerick, picking up major stops at Bantry, Dingle, Fenit, Tarbert and Foynes! :P

An Irish cruise :pac:

You could also do Tarbert to Kilrush

prunudo

Forget motorways, they should also consider the option of a ferry from Cork to Limerick, picking up major stops at Bantry, Dingle, Fenit, Tarbert and Foynes! :P

Becareful, what you say in jest others will take as serious suggestions. I've seen ferry's being mentioned on more than one occasion on various fb chats and posts in relation to the n11 upgrade project.

Isambard

niloc1951 wrote: »

I recently drove the old N8 route which has had a lot of repair and maintenance since the M8 took the through traffic off it. The reduced traffic load now makes inter town sections much safer and less stressfull also even though much of the route is now regional road classification (R639) it has a 100km/h speed limit on many sections.

I habitually used the old route between Mitch and Cahir in my camper. It's still a decent road and far better than the current N20. Used to be a deathtrap racetrack though. That's the whole reason why the N20 needs to be replaced with the M20 in the current corridor

Reputable Rog

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The Foynes line won’t be built over. A number of new railway bridges are included in the scheme.
The EU want the line reopened as do Shannon Foynes Port company.
The line is in poor condition in places and a lot of work is required on a number of bridges, the line also needs to be relaid at Weston and Rosbrien.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/fears-over-closure-of-foynes-rail-link-are-allayed-1.1048009%3Fmode%3Damp

An interesting article I just found from 2000.I also found this gem, I had small part in this project and I remember CIE holding up the opening of the Port Road in Foynes because they wanted an automated level crossing and even after the settlement failing to send an engineer to inspect the new level crossing.

Limerick Leader, 10 November 2007
Blind train of thought puts our port off track for good
By Martin Byrnes
Very few people will actually notice it when it happens, but Limerick's Colbert Station is to be upgraded and re signalled a little more than a year from now. This will dovetail with the enhanced passenger services on the Ennis and soon to be Claremorris line, the Waterford, and Rosslare route, the Castleconnell to Ballybrophy line as well as the hourly service from Limerick to Dublin via Limerick Junction.
Even fewer people noticed the fact that this week, at Colbert Station, Iarnrd ireann physically removed the switching points which allowed trains to use the line from Limerick to Foynes.
Not many think about the existence of a line to Foynes at all, but it does exist and this week a line which had already been declared "closed" is now cut off from the national rail network and would cost millions to reinstate if that were ever to happen. Foynes, the only Irish seaport with a railhead, now has none.
In truth, of course, the line from Limerick to Foynes has been something of an incongruity for a long time.
A century and a half ago, the original line from Limerick to Tralee was to have gone via Foynes and Tarbert to avoid the severe climb which would be necessitated were the line to run inland through Newcastle West and Abbeyfeale.
As it happened, the brittle sandstone just west of Foynes made tunnelling or cutting nigh impossible arid the inland route was constructed, with Ballingrane (originally called Rathkeale station) being the junction between the truncated Foynes track and the rest of the North Kerry line. Servicesfrom Foynes and Askeaton to meet the principal line were provided by short mixed trains.
Regular services on the Foynes link ceased long before the scale down of the main line had begun. The call at Ballingrane: "Change here for Askeaton and Foynes" became but an echo and today is remembered by only a handful of railway romantics.
But the Foynes line, although bereft of passenger and general goods business, did have some glory days left. It prospered through the movement of bulk cargo, such as the exportation of lead and zinc ores and special handling facilities were created at the port for that purpose. Importation of fertilisers was also a cash source for the railway; indeed it was a trainload of fertilizer which constituted the last commercial movement on the line, a decade ago.
A couple of the best examples of officialdom s left hand not knowing what its right hand is doing (and spending) can be derived from the recent history of the Foynes line.
The most blatant was the fact that, although the track hadn't seen a train for years, the National Roads Authority, at enormous expense, had to build special bridges and erect fences at Raheen and Patrickswell in the course of the construction of the southern dual carriageway and was required to align the new road so as not to disturb the rusting and overgrown line.
A second absurdity was when the new eastern approach road to Foynes docks was being completed by the port company. The rail company wanted the port to pay for an automatic level crossing at a cost of something like a quarter of a million euro, despite their being no rail traffic.
They settled for a manual crossing and then proceeded to re-gate most of the other road crossings along the closed line. Then it was discovered that the bridge over Robertstown Creek was potentially unsafe, so not even weed spraying trains are allowed travel further than Ballingrane and, of course, from this week's disconnection, even that will not be an option.
It is hard to blame the County Council for tarring over level crossings in the Cappagh area because there is no reasonable expectation that trains will use the track again, at least in the medium term.
The construction of Limerick's fine new road network seems to have dampened calls for a commuter rail system to include Raheen, Patrickswell, Adare, Askeaton and Foynes. But millions have been spent on upgrading track and
providing rolling stock for the Limerick to Ennis shuttle service while further millions went to boosting the road infrastructure between the two centres.
It can be argued, from an economic point of view, that Ireland doesn't have the population spread or geographical size to sustain a viable rail freight service. But Foynes has built up a very lively container trade with Rotterdam and trucks deliver and collect containers of goods from all over
the country, putting pressure on the N69 while a railway track lies idle in parallel.
That container business could easily be facilitated on the Foynes track with late-night liner trains connecting from all over the country.
That, certainly, is the ambition of Shannon Foynes Port Company, but the railway planners don't seem to think in the same way and certainly don't see rail regeneration as being a positive energiser for regional development.
It might be misty-eyed to wish to see Limerick recover its status of a hundred years ago as being the second transport hub on the island, second only to Dublin, with trains from north, south, east and west converging on a frenetically busy station, bearing passengers and goods from all parts,
But it would not be misty eyed to seek to preserve the potential of what we have so as to be ready to respond to the requirements of the future.
This week's disconnection of the Foynes line from the national rail grid will probably mean that the new signals within Limerick's Colbert Station will be designed without reference to any future reinstitution of the points. Although not formally abandoned, the line will continue to deteriorate and eventual restoration costs will continue to mount up.
Although not directly related, the latest sad monument along the line is the sight of Adare's beautiful cut limestone railway house and grounds fenced up and empty. As the autumn leaves lie russet within the fence, it is increasingly difficult to envisage a spring for me line again, at least
while current thinking prevails.

marno21

These people are just comically bad at politics

https://twitter.com/newstalkfm/status/1218096414045167617

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

These people are just comically bad at politics

https://twitter.com/newstalkfm/status/1218096414045167617

Heard the start but had to move away from the radio before he got onto transport. If they get in the admin may as well close down the roads forum.
I think its the leadership thats the issue, don't believe the whole party is. As I've said elsewhere, how can you take them seriously when their leader lobbied against the upgrade (for relatively little cost) of the already over crowded greenline Luas.

73bc61lyohr0mu

Once again I had the pleasure of driving on the N20 yesterday. An absolute disaster. A bit of rain and some people crawl along. Just outside charleville some auld lad in a red passant thought it was OK to do 35kmph on a main road. And not even pull over to let the 2km tailback past. The m20 needs to be built. I dread driving that road now..

Cork Trucker

Dan Boyle's response to me on Eamon Ryan's Newstalk interview

https://twitter.com/sendboyle/status/1218123048160759809?s=20

Isambard

he's a fool

Cork Trucker

Isambard wrote: »

he's a fool

I don't agree with the politics of the Green Party, but he is good at engaging to say the least, i even managed to briefly get him to come on here one time.

Cork Trucker

Here is the podcast from Ryan's interview motorway discussion is at 16:00

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-newstalk-breakfast/eamon-ryan-takes-call

niloc1951

The via Cahir (M8 Jct.10) option has its merrits. It would give a reliable Cork - Limerick journey time of about 85 minutes in rain or shine. As DB says it would also provide an improved link between Limerick and Clonmel/Waterford and requiring 40km less new build would be significantly less expensive and have a shorter delivery time.
Having said that, the deficiencies of the N20 should also be addressed to improve the inter town safety and commuting experience.
Regarding the rail options, with the looming effect of climate change and the need to minimise energy use we should consider that moving freight by rail is 12 times more efficient than by road.

JamesBond2010

marno21 wrote: »

These people are just comically bad at politics

https://twitter.com/newstalkfm/status/1218096414045167617

What a ****ing twat just cause it is outside dublin as usual it makes no sense. could connect shannon & cork together as well.

Isambard

niloc1951 wrote: »

The via Cahir (M8 Jct.10) option has its merrits. It would give a reliable Cork - Limerick journey time of about 85 minutes in rain or shine. As DB says it would also provide an improved link between Limerick and Clonmel/Waterford and requiring 40km less new build would be significantly less expensive and have a shorter delivery time.
Having said that, the deficiencies of the N20 should also be addressed to improve the inter town safety and commuting experience.
Regarding the rail options, with the looming effect of climate change and the need to minimise energy use we should consider that moving freight by rail is 12 times more efficient than by road.

the object of the M20 exercise is to provide the area between Limerick and Cork with a decent safe road into the cities. There is probably more traffic from this area into the cities than there is end to end, and this would still be there if the motorway went the ,long way round via Cahir.

I dispute that rail is more efficient than road. Moving freight by rail in virtually every scenario involves road movements at each end and the extra time and labour costs involved with two transshipments means it is very often the case that rail does not meet the needs of freight customers in a "just in time" logisitics world.

JamesBond2010

Isambard wrote: »

the object of the M20 exercise is to provide the area between Limerick and Cork with a decent safe road into the cities. There is probably more traffic from this area into the cities than there is end to end, and this would still be there if the motorway went the ,long way round via Cahir.

I dispute that rail is more efficient than road. Moving freight by rail in virtually every scenario involves road movements at each end and the extra time and labour costs involved with two transshipments means it is very often the case that rail does not meet the needs of freight customers in a "just in time" logisitics world.

They even got rid of the freight section in limerick railway station cause it was losing money. if it was that efficient they would have kept it.

marno21

niloc1951 wrote: »

The via Cahir (M8 Jct.10) option has its merrits. It would give a reliable Cork - Limerick journey time of about 85 minutes in rain or shine. As DB says it would also provide an improved link between Limerick and Clonmel/Waterford and requiring 40km less new build would be significantly less expensive and have a shorter delivery time.
Having said that, the deficiencies of the N20 should also be addressed to improve the inter town safety and commuting experience.
Regarding the rail options, with the looming effect of climate change and the need to minimise energy use we should consider that moving freight by rail is 12 times more efficient than by road.

The N24 routing has merits but it has far fewer merits than the M20 routing. Using an N24 routing would still require Cork-Mallow dualling, Charleville bypass, Buttevant bypass, Mallow bypass (including Blackwater bridge), realigning the Ballybeg bends, realigning the Anhid bends, junction improvements etc

It would end up costing just as much or more than the N24 routing, and provide less benefits.

Freight by rail makes sense in places like continental Europe or in the US. Not in Ireland which is small, dispersed, and has short runs.

Plus I'd like to see an actual rational policy from the Fruitcake Party that isn't abstract and is grounded in economic reality.

Kevtherev1

I heard all the Eamon Ryan Newstalk interview this morning. He was doing a ok job answering listeners questions. Then near end the M20 question came up and bham he then lost the audience.


Eamon's point was no m20 joining limerick and Cork in its suburbs has it too much traffic joining poor local roads in Cork and Limerick. He wants m20 to join limerick via the M7.


He fundamentally opposed, this guy will likely be taniste in next government going by the latest polls. Once the election results come in should the M20 design be paused?


The eventual current design when complete goes to cabinet before planning submission. At that meeting there will be a almighty battle of ideology, the greens opposing the preferred route. I think this interview shows we cannot trust the greens as regards infrastructure, they will block roads and all public transport plans changed.


Very dangerous for this country the greens getting maybe 8 to 10 seats in forthcoming election. If the greens block the m20 design it will be back into planning again for several years from mid 20s.

snotboogie

Kevtherev1 wrote: »

I heard all the Eamon Ryan Newstalk interview this morning. He was doing a ok job answering listeners questions. Then near end the M20 question came up and bham he then lost the audience.


Eamon's point was no m20 joining limerick and Cork in its suburbs has it too much traffic joining poor local roads in Cork and Limerick. He wants m20 to join limerick via the M7.


He fundamentally opposed, this guy will likely be taniste in next government going by the latest polls. Once the election results come in should the M20 design be paused?


The eventual current design when complete goes to cabinet before planning submission. At that meeting there will be a almighty battle of ideology, the greens opposing the preferred route. I think this interview shows we cannot trust the greens as regards infrastructure, they will block roads and all public transport plans changed.


Very dangerous for this country the greens getting maybe 8 to 10 seats in forthcoming election. If the greens block the m20 design it will be back into planning again for several years from mid 20s.

I can get behind this if the money is ring fenced and put into Busconnects Cork and Limerick but none of this from the Greens. Just no M20 and keep investing in Dublin.

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Dan Boyle's response to me on Eamon Ryan's Newstalk interview

https://twitter.com/sendboyle/status/1218123048160759809?s=20

That is comically poor, an absolutely shocking response