Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

We've brought down our alcohol consumption substantially over the last 20 years, and absolutely slashed road deaths, without doing any of the above nanny state measures which infringe on the freedom of law-abiding citizens.

I knew "nanny state" would be part of any response to my post...
Yes we have and that's all welcome. But only because they did what I'm suggesting-better public education about excess alcohol consumption, more regulation of the drinks industry and advertising, and a move away from pubs being the only social outlet for people.

Quite frankly I don't care if it's so-called nanny statism if it works to reduce the burden of alcohol to individuals and society, and it does work there. It's a matter of public health, safety and the welfare of society as a whole, as well as all the attendant costs of irresponsible consumption. Are seat belts nanny statism? are mandated child restraint systems in cars nanny state? smoking bans in the workplace that protect non-smokers from second hand smoke?
the Swedes see their measures in the same way and I agree.

What about my freedom to be able to walk through town at night safely without having drunken fools fighting, harassing people and spewing on the public paths?
What about my freedom to not have my property damaged and destroyed by drunken people? what about my freedom to not have messy drunks on public transport causing anti-social behavioural problems?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Two massive problems are the lack of any alternative social outlets, and the almost complete lack of public order policing. Anyone acting the dick on a night out should get a night in the cells and a court appearance the next morning, stay in the cells until you pay.

It's the refusal to deal with the people who actually cause the problems. The public order offenders, anti-social behaviour-ers, insurance scammers, etc.

Yes agreed, and with little sign of any of that changing in the near future the one thing they seem they are doing (though short sighted) is introducing MAP.

"Should" is very far from the reality of what happens in this country.

easypazz wrote: »

Wages here are 3 times Latvia. We really cant have it all.

Is the cost of everything here 3 times Latvias. More I'd reckon. Oh yea is herion cheap cause I don't see it stopping junkies.

I lived in Sweden for a little while, quite some time ago.
The systembogalet was a major pain in the ass and expensive compared to Ireland at the time.
Fancy a bottle of wine on a Sunday? Forget it.

The other thing I noticed was the amount of binge drinking and public drunkeness at the weekends. Even to a 26 year old who drank a whole lot more than I do now, it seemed that Sweden had a worse relationship with alcohol than Ireland did.

I believe that they have major problems with illicit and homemade alcohol, too.

the beer revolu wrote: »

I lived in Sweden for a little while, quite some time ago.
The systembogalet was a major pain in the ass and expensive compared to Ireland at the time.
Fancy a bottle of wine on a Sunday? Forget it.

The other thing I noticed was the amount of binge drinking and public drunkeness at the weekends. Even to a 26 year old who drank a whole lot more than I do now, it seemed that Sweden had a worse relationship with alcohol than Ireland did.

I believe that they have major problems with illicit and homemade alcohol, too.

Treat adults like little kids about alcohol and they act like little kids. What a surprise.

the beer revolu wrote: »

I lived in Sweden for a little while, quite some time ago.
The systembogalet was a major pain in the ass and expensive compared to Ireland at the time.
Fancy a bottle of wine on a Sunday? Forget it.

The other thing I noticed was the amount of binge drinking and public drunkeness at the weekends. Even to a 26 year old who drank a whole lot more than I do now, it seemed that Sweden had a worse relationship with alcohol than Ireland did.

I believe that they have major problems with illicit and homemade alcohol, too.

Well I lived there for 8 years. My experience was wine and beer prices were cheaper in the System than Ireland, although you can of course choose to pay more for craft beers or a more expensive bottle of wine. The selection was better too and the staff are all educated on the products and are good at recommending something.

I didn't find it a pain in the ass when there was also bars, restaurants and klass 11 beer available in the supermarkets just for drinking with dinner for example.
It's not any more an inconvenience than going to an off-licence here and the selection is bigger. Yes Sunday closing but so what? you stock up on Saturday and soon get used to it. Workers are entitled to a day off.

Of course Swedes do drink when they go out at the weekends or on public holidays and can then drink a lot, but you won't see them wasted on weekdays (Lutheran country) and they don't end up brawling in public like here. Violence is frowned upon there my the vast majority as a means of solving conflicts and they're very averse to confrontation.

I sometimes went out on my own as a woman in Gothenburg until late on the weekends and never once had any problems or felt unsafe. Far safer than Dublin city centre late at night.

They don't have "major problems" with home brew- hembränt :pac:
It's brewed there yes in some places same as poitin here, and I tasted it at parties a few times from people I trusted, but it's illegal and not drank much in the cities at all anyway. In the countryside it's consumed a bit more often but only made by those who have been doing so many years and really know how to make it safely. Most people just drink beer, wine or other spirits.

elperello wrote: »

As I thought, you are prepared to accept MUP and work around it as a trade off to live in Ireland.

As opposed to what? take to the streets? send an angry letter to government?

elperello wrote: »

You think it will make the streets safer when there is no evidence that it will and even it's proponents don't claim it will.

In lieu of anything else here that actually works in other countries I'm prepared to wait and see the outcome, much as I don't like alcohol being any more expensive than it already is.

elperello wrote: »

Your partner plans to brew at home as a work around measure to ensure that cheap drink is available in your house.

Myself and others just want to buy our drinks at the market price and be allowed to enjoy it as we see fit.

I don't care that much as alcohol is a small part of my spending as it is for my partner, but he's not prepared to spend far more for beer in this country than what he can buy it for in Germany so he'll home brew yes. He can buy this in his local supermarket this week as an example: https://www.kaufland.de/angebote/aktuelle-woche/detail.so_id=2322626.html

20X 0.5ltr bottles of decent pils for €10. That's why he'll be home brewing here.


You can want a lot of things, but this is Ireland and things either take forever to change or they don't at all, so I wouldn't be holding my breath for market prices.

Greentopia wrote: »

She actually Yes I meant high prices are regrettable but in lieu of anything approaching a more rigorous, effective mechanism and long term strategy to deal with the problems caused by excess alcohol consumption -better policing, better awareness of the adverse health and societal problems, more social outlets in rural Ireland especially than the pub...then high pricing is the only thing Government is doing. So we deal with that and accept that as a reality or move somewhere else with all those things we lack. I choose to stay here (for now anyway) so I have to accept high prices and this minimum pricing if and when it comes in.

If the answer to reducing alcohol consumption is increasing prices then increase the duty on alcohol. MAP only benefits publicans. That is the reason they proposed its introduction. The government couldn't give a fig about reducing consumption. they just want to move consumption from homes back to pubs.

Greentopia wrote: »

high pricing is the only thing Government is doing. So we deal with that and accept that as a reality or move somewhere else with all those things we lack. I choose to stay here (for now anyway) so I have to accept high prices and this minimum pricing if and when it comes in.

What was the name of the female horse in Animal Farm?

Never mind. You have all the attitudes of the male horse Boxer, the diligent unquestioning obedient servant of the ruling power. Whose two mottos were "Napoleon is always right" and "I will work harder"

Very commendable, in some ways, but also dangerously supine.

Remember what happened to Boxer in the end?

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is not the motivation.
MAP raises the barrier to entry to the purchase of alcoholic liquor. And so will reduce the consumption by the poorest in society, and have little or no effect upon those not purchasing from the low end of the market. It is therefore a clear attempt to reduce alcohol consumption by the poor, who are unable to control their consumption of it, while implicitly stating that the rich do not need state control of their alcohol consumption, being capable of moderating their drinking.

Whether this is nanny state-ism, and the poor should be allowed to consume to excess and to their harm, or, whether it is incumbent upon those in authority to impose such restriction for the good of others is debatable.

Either way, it is the motivation at the root of MAP.

Hold up TROL, if it is the case, like you stated there that these folk can't control their consumption of it, you think these people are going to suddenly go on the dry because the drink has gone up in price? Whats more likely to happen, they go on the dry and give it up, or move onto other cheaper nastier and illegal stuff that is even more harmful to themselves and society in general?

odyssey06 wrote: »

Plus it's not just cheaper in countries with lower wages and costs of living.
It's cheaper in the French Riviera ffs, it's cheaper in Germany ...
Drink in supermarkets in Copenhagen is cheaper than supermarkets here, drink in pubs in Copenhagen is actually more expensive.
And I didn't see any worse problems with drink in Riga, Copenhagen or Nice or Lyon or Munich than in Dublin.

It has nothing to do with the price of drink. They have police and judicial systems that don't tolerate s**t from drunks. That's the difference.

Faffing about with the legislation on the price of drink in supermarkets won't do a damned thing about what's going down at 1am on a city street.
That takes uniformed bodies on the ground.

IMHO that is the root of the problem, 'we' see being drunk and a mess as having the craic. Until we see enforcement of laws against drunk and disorderly behaviour, having a drunk tank and throwing people into it, nothing will change. (Except with this law the sellers of alcohol will get richer and the government won't get much out of it).