Minimum alcohol pricing is nigh

Geuze

facehugger99 wrote: »

Pints were about £2 - so there was feck all difference between having a bottle of wine at home or 4 pints out in the pub.

Nowadays the same 4 pints will be costing you around €20, whereas you'll get a selection of wine in Lidl or Aldi for €6-7 ( i would say better quality than the mid-90's cheap stuff) - it's a huge swing in the on vs off license price.

This is true.

The (pub pint / off-licence) ratio has changed.

It is possible to get 50cl cans Guinness for 1 euro, if you watch for deals, and then buy in bulk.

Even in rural Ireland, pints are what, 4.20-4.40?

568ml at home is 1.10, so pubs are 4x home prices.

That ratio has increased over the last 20 years.

In the summer of 1993 I paid IR£1.85 for a pint in a Galway city pub, and I'd say a 50cl can at the time was what? Not less than IR£1 anyways.

So the ratio has increased a lot.

Greentopia

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I mean I could almost live with that, but keep your hands off my f*cking beer you nerdy little sh*t Harris, look at the weather outside, and he wants to take our booze away. Grrrr.

Why not brew your own? that's what my partner will do if he moves here to Ireland. I regularly go to his country and it's way way cheaper to buy a decent bottle of local wine or good beer there, but that's because they don't have the same level of problem drinkers there as here (people drink more responsibly), and the government doesn't take as much taxes on alcohol.

I also go to Sweden where strong beer and other alcohol is only sold (outside of bars and restaurants) in state run shops, inspired by the temperance movement. You can buy class 1 'light beer' -under 2.25% alcohol in any supermarket, class 11 up to 3.5% if you're 18 or over, and then Class 111 and other strong alcohol only in the Systembolaget if you're over 20, where you will have to show official ID if they're in any doubt about your age.

I think that's a good idea to bring here as it controls what and where it's sold and to whom, and their research shows it has led to big reductions in alcohol related injury and deaths.

Problem in this country is we still have a culture of binge drinking leading to social and health problems. If people cannot self regulate their habits (and any town or city at the weekend shows they can't); if we're not going to educate our young people about responsible safe levels of drinking and responsible behaviour towards others (starting in preschool), or provide alternative ways to have a good time without alcohol then the only recourse left is high taxes or make it harder for people to impulse buy strong alcohol.

It sucks that people like me and others who only have a bottle of wine once a month and a can or bottle of beer once or twice a week has to pay for the irresponsible behaviour of others with high alcohol prices, but that's the price of living here and nothing new...same for insurance, the cost of housing, the people we choose to elect... it runs right through Irish society.

easypazz

Geuze wrote: »

This is true.

The (pub pint / off-licence) ratio has changed.

It is possible to get 50cl cans Guinness for 1 euro, if you watch for deals, and then buy in bulk.

Even in rural Ireland, pints are what, 4.20-4.40?

568ml at home is 1.10, so pubs are 4x home prices.

That ratio has increased over the last 20 years.

In the summer of 1993 I paid IR£1.85 for a pint in a Galway city pub, and I'd say a 50cl can at the time was what? Not less than IR£1 anyways.

So the ratio has increased a lot.

I suppose the main drivers in pub price increases are minimum wage, insurance and rates.

I think I remember working for £1 when pints were £1.5

Today if I was earning €10 (~min. wage) pints would be €5 so I could afford 2 pints every hour I worked.

Back then I could afford a pint after 1.5 hours.

However back then 15 year olds could be barmen until 2am and £1 was a lot to a 15 year old.

Greentopia

Greentopia wrote: »

Why not brew your own? that's what my partner will do if he moves here to Ireland. I regularly go to his country and it's way way cheaper to buy a decent bottle of local wine or good beer there, but that's because they don't have the same level of problem drinkers there as here (people drink more responsibly), and the government doesn't take as much taxes on alcohol.

I also go to Sweden where strong beer and other alcohol is only sold (outside of bars and restaurants) in state run shops, inspired by the temperance movement. You can buy class 1 'light beer' -under 2.25% alcohol in any supermarket, class 11 up to 3.5% if you're 18 or over, and then Class 111 and other strong alcohol only in the Systembolaget if you're over 20, where you will have to show official ID if they're in any doubt about your age.

I think that's a good idea to bring here as it controls what and where it's sold and to whom, and their research shows it has led to big reductions in alcohol related injury and deaths.

Problem in this country is we still have a culture of binge drinking leading to social and health problems. If people cannot self regulate their habits (and any town or city at the weekend shows they can't); if we're not going to educate our young people about responsible safe levels of drinking and responsible behaviour towards others (starting in preschool), or provide alternative ways to have a good time without alcohol then the only recourse left is high taxes or make it harder for people to impulse buy strong alcohol.

It sucks that people like me and others who only have a bottle of wine once a month and a can or bottle of beer once or twice a week has to pay for the irresponsible behaviour of others with high alcohol prices, but that's the price of living here and nothing new...same for insurance, the cost of housing, the people we choose to elect... it runs right through Irish society.

"Thats the price we pay for living here"

Jesus you'd swear Ireland was some kind of Shangri La, Nirvana paradise.

easypazz

Deleted User wrote: »

"Thats the price we pay for living here"

Jesus you'd swear Ireland was some kind of Shangri La, Nirvana paradise.

Wages here are 3 times Latvia. We really cant have it all.

murphyebass

Funny how this thread started 3 years ago and if anything cheap booze is more available than ever!

It’s not going to stop any time soon. There’s no appetite for any government to stop it. If there was it’d be done by now.

Happy cheap boozy Christmas all :-)

elperello

It's interesting to compare different countries and different times but the bottom line and the reason for this thread is that our current Government is going to make us pay an artificially high price for drink in Ireland in 2020.

easypazz

easypazz wrote: »

Wages here are 3 times Latvia. We really cant have it all.

"We can't have it all" What all do we have? What do we get in return for this additional stealth tax?

What do we already get in return for the taxes we already pay?

You are full of soundbites, but slim on facts.

elperello

Deleted User wrote: »

"We can't have it all" What all do we have? What do we get in return for this additional stealth tax?

What do we already get in return for the taxes we already pay?

You are full of soundbites, but slim on facts.

And the really cruel irony is that it's not even a tax in the normal way but a gift to the drinks trade.

Hotblack Desiato

Greentopia wrote: »

I think that's a good idea to bring here as it controls what and where it's sold and to whom, and their research shows it has led to big reductions in alcohol related injury and deaths.

We've brought down our alcohol consumption substantially over the last 20 years, and absolutely slashed road deaths, without doing any of the above nanny state measures which infringe on the freedom of law-abiding citizens.

I imagine the state-owned offy isn't open late or on Sundays or bank holidays, either???

Problem in this country is we still have a culture of binge drinking leading to social and health problems. If people cannot self regulate their habits (and any town or city at the weekend shows they can't); if we're not going to educate our young people about responsible safe levels of drinking and responsible behaviour towards others (starting in preschool), or provide alternative ways to have a good time without alcohol then the only recourse left is high taxes or make it harder for people to impulse buy strong alcohol.

Two massive problems are the lack of any alternative social outlets, and the almost complete lack of public order policing. Anyone acting the dick on a night out should get a night in the cells and a court appearance the next morning, stay in the cells until you pay.

It sucks that people like me and others who only have a bottle of wine once a month and a can or bottle of beer once or twice a week has to pay for the irresponsible behaviour of others with high alcohol prices, but that's the price of living here and nothing new...same for insurance, the cost of housing, the people we choose to elect... it runs right through Irish society.

It's the refusal to deal with the people who actually cause the problems. The public order offenders, anti-social behaviour-ers, insurance scammers, etc.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Two massive problems are the lack of any alternative social outlets, and the almost complete lack of public order policing. Anyone acting the dick on a night out should get a night in the cells and a court appearance the next morning, stay in the cells until you pay.

I spoke before about living in the Czech Republic. I was drinking with mostly Irish, Scotsmen, Poles, Macedonians and the occasional Czech. In a country with 24 hour licensing, you could buy vodka at the tram stop at 6am. Pubs didn't close or if they did, you went to the one next door that was still open.

In an environment like that with irish and Scottish men drinking cheap alcohol all night you'd assume things got messy regularly.

But surprisingly no, everyone got drunk at their own speed, and people went home when they'd had enough. Or popped in for a quick one and went away again. It wasn't a big deal because it was always available.

Over there, like here, drunk and disorderly is an offence. And its treated seriously. And be disorderly or obstreperous and the cops arrive instantly.

Go down O'Connell Street at 1am. Boisterous annoying drunks and not a guard to be seen anywhere.

Thats our main problem with drink. Zero enforcement. No drunk tanks. No internal security.

Greentopia

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Deleted User wrote: »

"Thats the price we pay for living here"

Jesus you'd swear Ireland was some kind of Shangri La, Nirvana paradise.

That's not what I meant.

I mean if I'm going to continue to choose to stay living here I have to accept high alcohol prices as a reality of life because the government clearly don't want to do anything that would take a more nuanced and systemic approach involving long term planning and investment in education and services, than introduce MAP.

Greentopia

Greentopia wrote: »

That's not what I meant.

I mean if I'm going to continue to choose to stay living here I have to accept high alcohol prices as a reality of life because the government clearly don't want to do anything that would take a more nuanced and systemic approach involving long term planning and investment in education and services, than introduce MAP.

I read this four times and still don't understand what you mean.

easypazz

Deleted User wrote: »

I read this four times and still don't understand what you mean.

I think what he is saying is that if you think there are better countries to live in you should go live there rather than whinging about everything here.

elperello

easypazz wrote: »

I think what he is saying is that if you think there are better countries to live in you should go live there rather than whinging about everything here.

Is that what you think yourself?
I'd say it's more nuanced than that and he/she is espousing a pragmatic approach to the issue.
A kind of trade off.

Greentopia

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

We've brought down our alcohol consumption substantially over the last 20 years, and absolutely slashed road deaths, without doing any of the above nanny state measures which infringe on the freedom of law-abiding citizens.

I knew "nanny state" would be part of any response to my post...
Yes we have and that's all welcome. But only because they did what I'm suggesting-better public education about excess alcohol consumption, more regulation of the drinks industry and advertising, and a move away from pubs being the only social outlet for people.

Quite frankly I don't care if it's so-called nanny statism if it works to reduce the burden of alcohol to individuals and society, and it does work there. It's a matter of public health, safety and the welfare of society as a whole, as well as all the attendant costs of irresponsible consumption. Are seat belts nanny statism? are mandated child restraint systems in cars nanny state? smoking bans in the workplace that protect non-smokers from second hand smoke?
the Swedes see their measures in the same way and I agree.

What about my freedom to be able to walk through town at night safely without having drunken fools fighting, harassing people and spewing on the public paths?
What about my freedom to not have my property damaged and destroyed by drunken people? what about my freedom to not have messy drunks on public transport causing anti-social behavioural problems?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Two massive problems are the lack of any alternative social outlets, and the almost complete lack of public order policing. Anyone acting the dick on a night out should get a night in the cells and a court appearance the next morning, stay in the cells until you pay.

It's the refusal to deal with the people who actually cause the problems. The public order offenders, anti-social behaviour-ers, insurance scammers, etc.

Yes agreed, and with little sign of any of that changing in the near future the one thing they seem they are doing (though short sighted) is introducing MAP.

"Should" is very far from the reality of what happens in this country.

Greentopia

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Deleted User wrote: »

I read this four times and still don't understand what you mean.

Replace price with penalty then. Better?

Mr. teddywinkles

easypazz wrote: »

Wages here are 3 times Latvia. We really cant have it all.

Is the cost of everything here 3 times Latvias. More I'd reckon. Oh yea is herion cheap cause I don't see it stopping junkies.

Greentopia

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I imagine the state-owned offy isn't open late or on Sundays or bank holidays, either???

Meant to reply to this point also... Sunday closed and all public holidays-13 in Sweden and usually extra over Christmas. They don't have "bank" holidays. Different branches have different opening hours but my main one was 10am to 7pm weekdays and Saturday 10am-3pm. It just meant you had to stock up if you wanted something for Sunday or a public holiday beforehand.

Not a big inconvenience and you get used to it. Every shop used to be closed here on Sunday too and it was calmer and more relaxing for all workers getting a day off.

the beer revolu

I lived in Sweden for a little while, quite some time ago.
The systembogalet was a major pain in the ass and expensive compared to Ireland at the time.
Fancy a bottle of wine on a Sunday? Forget it.

The other thing I noticed was the amount of binge drinking and public drunkeness at the weekends. Even to a 26 year old who drank a whole lot more than I do now, it seemed that Sweden had a worse relationship with alcohol than Ireland did.

I believe that they have major problems with illicit and homemade alcohol, too.

odyssey06

easypazz wrote: »

Wages here are 3 times Latvia. We really cant have it all.

Are wages here 3 times that of France or Germany?

We cant have it all... what a slogan of mediocrity and acquiscence to corruption.

L1011

the beer revolu wrote: »

I lived in Sweden for a little while, quite some time ago.
The systembogalet was a major pain in the ass and expensive compared to Ireland at the time.
Fancy a bottle of wine on a Sunday? Forget it.

The other thing I noticed was the amount of binge drinking and public drunkeness at the weekends. Even to a 26 year old who drank a whole lot more than I do now, it seemed that Sweden had a worse relationship with alcohol than Ireland did.

I believe that they have major problems with illicit and homemade alcohol, too.

Treat adults like little kids about alcohol and they act like little kids. What a surprise.

Greentopia

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

easypazz wrote: »

I think what he is saying is that if you think there are better countries to live in you should go live there rather than whinging about everything here.

She actually Yes I meant high prices are regrettable but in lieu of anything approaching a more rigorous, effective mechanism and long term strategy to deal with the problems caused by excess alcohol consumption -better policing, better awareness of the adverse health and societal problems, more social outlets in rural Ireland especially than the pub...then high pricing is the only thing Government is doing. So we deal with that and accept that as a reality or move somewhere else with all those things we lack. I choose to stay here (for now anyway) so I have to accept high prices and this minimum pricing if and when it comes in.

Greentopia

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

the beer revolu wrote: »

I lived in Sweden for a little while, quite some time ago.
The systembogalet was a major pain in the ass and expensive compared to Ireland at the time.
Fancy a bottle of wine on a Sunday? Forget it.

The other thing I noticed was the amount of binge drinking and public drunkeness at the weekends. Even to a 26 year old who drank a whole lot more than I do now, it seemed that Sweden had a worse relationship with alcohol than Ireland did.

I believe that they have major problems with illicit and homemade alcohol, too.

Well I lived there for 8 years. My experience was wine and beer prices were cheaper in the System than Ireland, although you can of course choose to pay more for craft beers or a more expensive bottle of wine. The selection was better too and the staff are all educated on the products and are good at recommending something.

I didn't find it a pain in the ass when there was also bars, restaurants and klass 11 beer available in the supermarkets just for drinking with dinner for example.
It's not any more an inconvenience than going to an off-licence here and the selection is bigger. Yes Sunday closing but so what? you stock up on Saturday and soon get used to it. Workers are entitled to a day off.

Of course Swedes do drink when they go out at the weekends or on public holidays and can then drink a lot, but you won't see them wasted on weekdays (Lutheran country) and they don't end up brawling in public like here. Violence is frowned upon there my the vast majority as a means of solving conflicts and they're very averse to confrontation.

I sometimes went out on my own as a woman in Gothenburg until late on the weekends and never once had any problems or felt unsafe. Far safer than Dublin city centre late at night.

They don't have "major problems" with home brew- hembränt :pac:
It's brewed there yes in some places same as poitin here, and I tasted it at parties a few times from people I trusted, but it's illegal and not drank much in the cities at all anyway. In the countryside it's consumed a bit more often but only made by those who have been doing so many years and really know how to make it safely. Most people just drink beer, wine or other spirits.

Greentopia

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

L1011 wrote: »

Treat adults like little kids about alcohol and they act like little kids. What a surprise.

Except they don't.

elperello

Greentopia wrote: »

I knew "nanny state" would be part of any response to my post...
Yes we have and that's all welcome. But only because they did what I'm suggesting-better public education about excess alcohol consumption, more regulation of the drinks industry and advertising, and a move away from pubs being the only social outlet for people.

Quite frankly I don't care if it's so-called nanny statism if it works to reduce the burden of alcohol to individuals and society, and it does work there. It's a matter of public health, safety and the welfare of society as a whole, as well as all the attendant costs of irresponsible consumption. Are seat belts nanny statism? are mandated child restraint systems in cars nanny state? smoking bans in the workplace that protect non-smokers from second hand smoke?
the Swedes see their measures in the same way and I agree.

What about my freedom to be able to walk through town at night safely without having drunken fools fighting, harassing people and spewing on the public paths?
What about my freedom to not have my property damaged and destroyed by drunken people? what about my freedom to not have messy drunks on public transport causing anti-social behavioural problems?



Yes agreed, and with little sign of any of that changing in the near future the one thing they seem they are doing (though short sighted) is introducing MAP.

"Should" is very far from the reality of what happens in this country.

As I thought, you are prepared to accept MUP and work around it as a trade off to live in Ireland.

You think it will make the streets safer when there is no evidence that it will and even it's proponents don't claim it will.

Your partner plans to brew at home as a work around measure to ensure that cheap drink is available in your house.

Myself and others just want to buy our drinks at the market price and be allowed to enjoy it as we see fit.

patrickbrophy18

Public order offences almost always happen after being in a pub/nightclub or in the actual pub/nightclub. In Ireland and The UK, this is exacerbated by a prevalent football hooligan/rugger bugger culture where rivalry, snobbery and testosterone are in high abundance.

Price fixing is a scam and the government have conveniently put a health and safety spin to drive their original plans. It is a well established fact that this is to keep the pub trade in business.

To ALL business owners, "you are NOT entitled to a livelihood, you earn it. This means adapting to the ever changing world. Instead of sticking to your comfort zone (the pub trade), look at other lines of business and win the right way. Don't expect the consumer to bail you out through price floors."

Greentopia

I disagree, the "drinking problems" are myths from the government.

elperello wrote: »

As I thought, you are prepared to accept MUP and work around it as a trade off to live in Ireland.

As opposed to what? take to the streets? send an angry letter to government?

elperello wrote: »

You think it will make the streets safer when there is no evidence that it will and even it's proponents don't claim it will.

In lieu of anything else here that actually works in other countries I'm prepared to wait and see the outcome, much as I don't like alcohol being any more expensive than it already is.

elperello wrote: »

Your partner plans to brew at home as a work around measure to ensure that cheap drink is available in your house.

Myself and others just want to buy our drinks at the market price and be allowed to enjoy it as we see fit.

I don't care that much as alcohol is a small part of my spending as it is for my partner, but he's not prepared to spend far more for beer in this country than what he can buy it for in Germany so he'll home brew yes. He can buy this in his local supermarket this week as an example: https://www.kaufland.de/angebote/aktuelle-woche/detail.so_id=2322626.html

20X 0.5ltr bottles of decent pils for €10. That's why he'll be home brewing here.


You can want a lot of things, but this is Ireland and things either take forever to change or they don't at all, so I wouldn't be holding my breath for market prices.

elperello

Greentopia wrote: »

As opposed to what? take to the streets? send an angry letter to government?



In lieu of anything else here that actually works in other countries I'm prepared to wait and see the outcome, much as I don't like alcohol being any more expensive than it already is.



I don't care that much as alcohol is a small part of my spending as it is for my partner, but he's not prepared to spend far more for beer in this country than what he can buy it for in Germany so he'll home brew yes. He can buy this in his local supermarket this week as an example: https://www.kaufland.de/angebote/aktuelle-woche/detail.so_id=2322626.html

20X 0.5ltr bottles of decent pils for €10. That's why he'll be home brewing here.


You can want a lot of things, but this is Ireland and things either take forever to change or they don't at all, so I wouldn't be holding my breath for market prices.

You have put your finger on one big problem for those of us who see MUP for the mess it is.

We are disempowered by a stitch up that results in a 100% Dail support for a measure that has by most surveys 20-30 % popular support.

That's not good politics.

It's quite clear that very little drink related street violence and anti-social behavior is caused by citizens having a drink at home.

You and your partner can look forward to a steady supply of cheap drink thanks to his skill and the time he will take to brew at home. Lots of other people have neither the skill nor the time and will be gouged by MUP prices.

Your summary of the pace of change here is correct and it's part of why we still have market prices. Long may it continue.

ohnonotgmail

Greentopia wrote: »

She actually Yes I meant high prices are regrettable but in lieu of anything approaching a more rigorous, effective mechanism and long term strategy to deal with the problems caused by excess alcohol consumption -better policing, better awareness of the adverse health and societal problems, more social outlets in rural Ireland especially than the pub...then high pricing is the only thing Government is doing. So we deal with that and accept that as a reality or move somewhere else with all those things we lack. I choose to stay here (for now anyway) so I have to accept high prices and this minimum pricing if and when it comes in.

If the answer to reducing alcohol consumption is increasing prices then increase the duty on alcohol. MAP only benefits publicans. That is the reason they proposed its introduction. The government couldn't give a fig about reducing consumption. they just want to move consumption from homes back to pubs.