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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

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    #1772
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tuxy wrote: »
    I would love if this happened but it won't under the current government and probably won't when FF get in next election.
    The whole insurance industry is badly in need of reform but for now the cartel is supported at government level.

    Yep. Ireland INC alive and well.


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    #1773
    creedp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,649 ✭✭✭creedp


    tuxy wrote: »
    I would love if this happened but it won't under the current government and probably won't when FF get in next election.
    The whole insurance industry is badly in need of reform but for now the cartel is supported at government level.

    What EU countries mandate compulsory insurance for cyclists?


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    #1774
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    creedp wrote: »
    What EU countries mandate compulsory insurance for cyclists?

    None that I know of but I would love if I could obtain optional insurance for myself, I'm not recommending forcing it on others.


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    #1775
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Have many such cases gone through the system?

    Two to my knowledge, they were pushed back to the 9th of December so we should have a formal legal opinion soon.

    [url] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/first-cases-of-riding-e-scooters-without-insurance-brought-to-court-1.4057797[/url]


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    #1776
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,379 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    I suspect not in the present circumstances ...... because electric scooters are not legislated for.
    .
    then what about my other point, does anybody know if have there been cases of people getting off lightly by modifying a car so that it is "not legislated for"?


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    #1777
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    In fact Cyclists are leaving themselves open by not having insurance

    Rather than mandating cyclist, escooter or even pedestrian insurance shouldn't these be covered under a general personal liability insurance?


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    #1778
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    Rather than mandating cyclist, escooter or even pedestrian insurance shouldn't these be covered under a general personal liability insurance?

    No idea ?


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    #1779
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    There's a Lad in work who got injured, in hospital and all after being hit by a car while riding his throttle powered ebike. I'll be interested to know what the outcome of that is. Think it's his 2nd time.


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    #1780
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    Two to my knowledge, they were pushed back to the 9th of December so we should have a formal legal opinion soon.

    [url] https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/first-cases-of-riding-e-scooters-without-insurance-brought-to-court-1.4057797[/url]

    Worst case is a fine even if it is deemed illegal. Back next day with another scooter.


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    #1781
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Shane Ross wants to impose a 25 Km/hr limit like electric bikes , this is a useless speed for an ebike at least. should be 32 Km/hr

    So 25 Km/hr is not a suitable speed for footpaths and crowded streets so what are they going to do ?

    Only answer is to just build proper cycle lanes for cyclists, ebikes and scooters.

    What's the normal speed limit for these scooters anyway ?


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    #1782
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 7,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Worst case is a fine even if it is deemed illegal. Back next day with another scooter.

    The penalty for driving without insurance is up to 6 months in prison and a fine of up to €5,000. I suspect they'll get a much lower sentence.


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    #1783
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    liamog wrote: »
    The penalty for driving without insurance is up to 6 months in prison and a fine of up to €5,000. I suspect they'll get a much lower sentence.

    Not a hope of a 5K fine for not paying insurance, prob 300 max from what I read in the papers and certainly no jail for a minimal offence.


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    #1784
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,025 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Shane Ross wants to impose a 25 Km/hr limit like electric bikes , this is a useless speed for an ebike at least. should be 32 Km/hr
    24kph is the average speed of a leisure cyclist.

    So how is 25kph useless for a bicycle with a motor?


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    #1785
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lumen wrote: »
    24kph is the average speed of a leisure cyclist.

    So how is 25kph useless for a bicycle with a motor?

    The idea is to make the bikes more practical.

    Ebikes are heavier and can sometimes cause mechanical drag when power to the motor is cut, this is a limit where you can find yourself fighting with the motor to keep a speed above 25 Km/hr and can be a pain in the ass and you might actually find yourself going slower on an ebike on level ground than you would on a normal road bike.


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    #1786
    Mrcaramelchoc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,795 ✭✭✭Mrcaramelchoc


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Shane Ross wants to impose a 25 Km/hr limit like electric bikes , this is a useless speed for an ebike at least. should be 32 Km/hr

    So 25 Km/hr is not a suitable speed for footpaths and crowded streets so what are they going to do ?

    Only answer is to just build proper cycle lanes for cyclists, ebikes and scooters.

    What's the normal speed limit for these scooters anyway ?

    I just bought one recently so i did a good bit of research.most of them are 25kmph max.some are 30 and then if you want to take the piss anD spend a lot 50 60 and 70


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    #1787
    BarryM
    Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭BarryM


    tuxy wrote: »
    None that I know of but I would love if I could obtain optional insurance for myself, I'm not recommending forcing it on others.

    In many countries, there is no such thing as 'compo' i.e. the gov or the corpo pay you if you fall off the pavement,etc. Ireland (and the UK, afaik) are sort of unique.

    In many European countries your home insurance or car insurance or bike insurance or playing a sport insurance, etc., includes a provision for personal injury. That covers falling off the pavement....

    Many, many years ago, there was the Kenny report. It suggested that a form of personal injury cover be introduced and a 'no fault' facility where the loss of a function in an accident is assessed by a body, including medics, insurers, etc. and applied.
    This sort of thing makes it possible to calculate the risks for insurers in advance. Hence more predictable.

    The Kenny report was never implemented, guess who ensured that?


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    #1788
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Not a hope of a 5K fine for not paying insurance, prob 300 max from what I read in the papers and certainly no jail for a minimal offence.

    If you have a driving licence isn't it 5 points added to that also?


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    #1789
    grogi
    Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The idea is to make the bikes more practical.

    Ebikes are heavier and can sometimes cause mechanical drag when power to the motor is cut, this is a limit where you can find yourself fighting with the motor to keep a speed above 25 Km/hr and can be a pain in the ass and you might actually find yourself going slower on an ebike on level ground than you would on a normal road bike.

    Ability to cycle uphill with decent pace and without spitting your lungs out is more practical in my book.


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    #1790
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tuxy wrote: »
    If you have a driving licence isn't it 5 points added to that also?

    I wouldn't imagine so if they don't even know what category these vehicles fall into.

    It's a bit pointless if someone has no license.


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    #1791
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I wouldn't imagine so if they don't even know what category these vehicles fall into.

    It's a bit pointless if someone has no license.

    Are you are talking about tax categories which I don't think is needed for conviction?

    Shane Ross has said as of now these scooters are considered mechanically propelled vehicles and are subject to the same penalties under road traffic laws, including fixed charge notices, penalty points, fines and possible seizure of the vehicle.

    If the minster has make this clear is there any reason they would not try to secure prosecution under these laws?


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    #1792
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    grogi wrote: »
    Ability to cycle uphill with decent pace and without spitting your lungs out is more practical in my book.

    It sure is and they're great, especially the chain drives setups from the likes of Bosch or the Best ebike motors from Berlin, Brose.

    However this brings me back to the ridiculous power limit of 250 watts, that is of course a max continuous power, they did not mention peak power and Bosch and other ebike manufacturers are well into 700+ watts at this stage , why ? because 250 watts wouldn't pull you out of bed, it might sound like a lot to the cycling purist that weighs 60 Kg and has a carbon bike and can afford not to work and cycle all day every day and do nothing else but for those who want to get out for some exercise and not kill themselves more power is needed but Bosch are up to 75 Nm of torque now , my 2013 had only 50 Nm which is not a lot at times when my knees get tired. Brose are up to around 110/120 Nm can't remember, I like power when I need it and no power at all when I want also. People still get plenty of exercise on ebikes on hills.

    Back to the speed limit, most cycalists can cycle faster than 25 km/hr, I also could when I was cycling but at the point of motor cut off it causes a lot more drag due to the heavier bike and also the resistance in the pedals when the power was off so I found myself going slower than I normally would and I seriously don't think 30-33 Km/hr is too fast for motor cut off, it's good enough in the US and other parts of the world.


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    #1793
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    I had to take some time off the bike and came back fat as ****(90kg)
    I can see from strava on my first cycle back 130 watts(measued on power meter) meant 26 Km/h for one hour over roads that are more bumpy than Dublin centre.
    I can't see the problem with 250 watts unless drive train loss is large with ebikes.
    In that unfit state I could still make better progress than most cars in a busy town or city at rush hour.


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    #1794
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,999 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Deleted User wrote: »
    .......

    Back to the speed limit, most cycalists can cycle faster than 25 km/hr, I also could when I was cycling but at the point of motor cut off it causes a lot more drag due to the heavier bike and also the resistance in the pedals when the power was off so I found myself going slower than I normally would and I seriously don't think 30-33 Km/hr is too fast for motor cut off, it's good enough in the US and other parts of the world.

    Does the power cut off suddenly, or reduce gradually over a speed range?

    A gradual reduction over say a range of 5 km/h would seem to be ideal.


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    #1795
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Does the power cut off suddenly, or reduce gradually over a speed range?

    A gradual reduction over say a range of 5 km/h would seem to be ideal.

    EU Directive is for the power to be progressively reduced as the bike nears 25 km/h

    No idea if they actually work like that but it sounds safer than an instant power cutoff.


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    #1796
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Does the power cut off suddenly, or reduce gradually over a speed range?

    A gradual reduction over say a range of 5 km/h would seem to be ideal.

    Yes it is gradual but at the point of ramp down and ramp up, if you get me, it can be rather irritating, the limit is just 5-7 km/hr too low.

    I could maintain 29 Km/hr on my old geared hub motor bike much easier and a blip of the throttle when I needed a boost.

    These legal bikes give you continuous power up to the ramp down, so at 25 km/hr you got no power and it ramps down earlier, it's just too early a shut off.

    I prefer having the power only when I want it because I like to peddle a lot, of course you can turn the power on and off yourself but not nearly as easy as having a throttle, pressing buttons just isn't right lol.


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    #1797
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tuxy wrote: »
    EU Directive is for the power to be progressively reduced as the bike nears 25 km/h

    No idea if they actually work like that but it sounds safer than an instant power cutoff.

    These fools making these rules are most likely driven around in Diesel powered vehicles paid by the tax payer, they haven't a clue about actual reality of ebikes on the road and what is the right limits etc. They'd want to cop on because it's these fools that are promoting the hacking of speed limits because they are ridiculous.


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    #1798
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tuxy wrote: »
    I had to take some time off the bike and came back fat as ****(90kg)

    Fat as **** at 90 Kg ? is that fat as **** ? lol


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    #1799
    creedp
    Registered Users Posts: 5,649 ✭✭✭creedp


    tuxy wrote: »
    Are you are talking about tax categories which I don't think is needed for conviction?

    Shane Ross has said as of now these scooters are considered mechanically propelled vehicles and are subject to the same penalties under road traffic laws, including fixed charge notices, penalty points, fines and possible seizure of the vehicle.

    If the minster has make this clear is there any reason they would not try to secure prosecution under these laws?


    Did Ross explain how penalty points are issued to those without a driving licence? But of course given Ross's hatred of everything car related I'm sure he would see this as yet another way of getting car drivers off the road


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    #1800
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,025 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Fat as **** at 90 Kg ? is that fat as **** ? lol

    For an average height (180cm) man BMI calculator gives:

    Overweight: over 81kg
    Obese: over 97kg.

    So 90kg is about halfway to obese.

    Obvs most heavy men claim that BMI is bullsh!t and they're just big boned.


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    #1801
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    creedp wrote: »
    Did Ross explain how penalty points are issued to those without a driving licence? But of course given Ross's hatred of everything car related I'm sure he would see this as yet another way of getting car drivers off the road

    I'm all for getting car drivers off the road, or at least those who shouldn't need to use them by making public transport the way it should be.

    If electric bikes and scooters helps achieve that then great but I'd like to see Dublin get a proper subway system at this stage, and proper rail, not crappy slow Luas that jam packed, it's a joke. In May , I took a packed train from Carlow to Heuston, went to Luas, saw people actually falling out of it with my own eyes, it's shocking. And it's even more shocking the damn train doesn't go to the City centre.

    How long before we keep denying Dublin needs a proper Subway system ?

    And a proper rail link to industrial estates etc ?


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