Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

rubadub · 04-12-2019 8:56pm

championc wrote: »

Can we please stop this sh1te and stay on topic.

how is it not on topic? threads often stray from the original post and there can be loads of other discussion later.

BUT -in this case the legality was mentioned in the very first post and discussed throughout the thread.

first post was spouting incorrect information.

goz83 wrote: »

I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

Some have a vested interest in keeping this myth alive and so want to perpetuate it and shut down any discussion of legality, which I think is absolutely disgraceful.

05-12-2019 10:03am

liamog wrote: »

A crime is defined as an act which can be punished by the State, a motoring offence is still a crime, it's dealt with by the district court, simply because they are defined as a summary offence.

It's illegal because it's contrary to Section VI of the Road Traffic Act.
Which states

Subsection 3 then goes on to outline the punishment.

No, an illegal scooter, electric bike or even not having NCT or Tax it's not a crime, it's an offence , there is a difference, this is why these offences ( not crimes ) are dealt with in the district court.

First off, if caught with a so called illegal scooter and they summons you , don't answer the door and don't collect registered mail , they have to get you within 6 months or the judge won't entertain the Guards.

You're not going to be jailed unless it's a series offence, an by that I mean causing harm or loss.

All the district Court Judge wants is to get revenue from you to the state, he's not interested in sending people to jail or handing out harsh fines because he doesn't want his ruling overturned in a higher court which happens more than you might think , it makes them look bad because the higher court expects the lower court to just get it out of the way and get the money.

The district/circuit court is absolutely massive source of revenue to the State.

So, the most people should expect if caught with a so called illegal scooter is a slap on the wrist and a fine but you are not a criminal lol.

You will also probably have your scooter taken, and if you ever have a car or scooter taken do not sign anything, you are not obliged to sign anything the Guards give you for impounding anything, doing so gives them authority for them to charge you impound fees, if you don't sign anything they can't charge you anything. Unless your vehicle is worth a lot more money then they have you. Just because a Guard tells you to do something doesn't mean you are in any way obliged to do so, but you need to know when they can.

Again, a traffic offence is that, an offence not a crime, you can be arrested and convicted of a crime if that includes but in no way limited to causing harm, injury or loss. You can't be arrested for having an illegal bike or scooter and sending you to Jail will cost the state a lot more money then they would get from you in fines so obviously their intention is to get you to pay money.

In actual fact , if you went to court regularly all they can do is fine you and you'd still be making massive savings compared to owning a car, no tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel and maintenance.

Mrcaramelchoc · 05-12-2019 10:07am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, an illegal scooter, electric bike or even not having NCT or Tax it's not a crime, it's an offence , there is a difference, this is why these offences ( not crimes ) are dealt with in the district court.

First off, if caught with a so called illegal scooter and they summons you , don't answer the door and don't collect registered mail , they have to get you within 3 months or the judge won't entertain the Guards.

You're not going to be jailed unless it's a series offence, an by that I mean causing harm or loss.

All the district Court Judge wants is to get revenue from you to the state, he's not interested in sending people to jail or handing out harsh fines because he doesn't want his ruling overturned in a higher court which happens more than you might think , it makes them look bad because the higher court expects the lower court to just get it out of the way and get the money.

The district/circuit court is absolutely massive source of revenue to the State.

So, the most people should expect if caught with a so called illegal scooter is a slap on the wrist and a fine but you are not a criminal lol.

You will also probably have your scooter taken, and if you ever have a car or scooter taken do not sign anything, you are not obliged to sign anything the Guards give you for impounding anything, doing so gives them authority for them to charge you impound fees, if you don't sign anything they can't charge you anything. Unless your vehicle is worth a lot more money then they have you. Just because a Guard tells you to do something doesn't mean you are in any way obliged to do so, but you need to know when they can.

Again, a traffic offence is that, an offence not a crime, you can be arrested and convicted of a crime if that includes but in no way limited to causing harm, injury or loss. You can't be arrested for having an illegal bike or scooter and sending you to Jail will cost the state a lot more money then they would get from you in fines so obviously their intention is to get you to pay money.

In actual fact , if you went to court regularly all they can do is fine you and you'd still be making massive savings compared to owning a car, no tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel and maintenance.

I think that should be stickied!for everyone to see.

05-12-2019 10:23am

From Citizens information.

A summons must be served at least 7 days before the court date if it is served by personal delivery, or 21 days before the court date if it is served by postal delivery.

( postal delivery, this is key here and citizens information won't tell you this, postal delivery means registered post, do not sign for registered post, do not collect at post office like a fool, a Judge won't take the word of a postman, the Judge wants proof, your signature is proof, don't give it to them

If a summons has not been correctly served, you are not obliged to appear in court in response to it. However, if you come to court, the case against you can proceed. In other words, any mistake in how the summons was served is corrected by your appearance in court.

It's about 6 months then they will go away and not bother unless they're right pricks altogether.

rubadub · 05-12-2019 1:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

So, the most people should expect if caught with a so called illegal scooter is a slap on the wrist and a fine but you are not a criminal lol.

are there any other potential issues? Like if you have a driving licence could you be banned from driving, or face huge insurance increases due to penalty points or something else.

I would guess it should have the same potential as riding a non road worthy motorbike, with no helmet, licence, insurance, tax, inadequate lights etc.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

Failure to have motor insurance or driving without insurance in Ireland is generally punishable by:

A fine of up to €5,000
5 penalty points and
At the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months.
The court may decide that you be disqualified from driving instead of incurring penalty points. In that case, you will be disqualified for 2 years or more for a first offence and 4 years or more in the case of a second offence committed within 3 years of the first.

if there was some loophole like "aha! it cannot be taxed or insured" then I guess people would just modify their uninsured, untaxed cars to be uninsurable for some reason.

grogi · 05-12-2019 1:17pm

rubadub wrote: »

are there any other potential issues? Like if you have a driving licence could you be banned from driving, or face huge insurance increases due to penalty points or something else.

I would guess it should have the same potential as riding a non road worthy motorbike, with no helmet, licence, insurance, tax, inadequate lights etc.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

if there was some loophole like "aha! it cannot be taxed or insured" then I guess people would just modify their uninsured, untaxed cars to be uninsurable for some reason.

There are multiple cases in this country of people being banned from driving. Tens of times... Just keep driving...

05-12-2019 2:30pm

rubadub wrote: »

are there any other potential issues? Like if you have a driving licence could you be banned from driving, or face huge insurance increases due to penalty points or something else.

I would guess it should have the same potential as riding a non road worthy motorbike, with no helmet, licence, insurance, tax, inadequate lights etc.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

if there was some loophole like "aha! it cannot be taxed or insured" then I guess people would just modify their uninsured, untaxed cars to be uninsurable for some reason.

I do not know, I see absolutely nothing to suggest that points can be applied, think of it this way, this is a very, very minor "offence" and it would be a pointless "pun intended" exercise applying points when the vast majority of People on these scooters probably do not have a license in the first place.

Remember the vast majority of these fines bring in massive revenue to the state, the Judicial system won't allow that to stop and all they are interested in is getting People in Pay the state money and get them out again so they don't want you going to a higher court with stupid crap like this when the lower court is expected to do their job and just hand out fines.

I would be in favour or proper regulation and proper sensible insurance because make no mistake, if you hit someone causing "harm" remember the key words here "harm" through injury or another key word "loss" loss because the person is unable to work and / or has to pay medical bills then the guards can arrest and now it's a crime.

This grey area is not good for anyone and if accidents become regular they will have to do something about it.

Dublin has plenty of side streets than can be cycle / scooter lanes away from traffic and People.

Not only a crime it's now probably going to cost you through fines +

BarryM · 05-12-2019 2:39pm

I got a 'slap' for suggesting that the 'feck it' mentality regarding using a potentially illegal device on the public road was not helpful.

Many of the recent posts are of the same nature, and suggest creating a thread to continue in that vein.

In boards there are plenty of threats from monitors to the effect that proposing illegal actions will be sanctioned. Why not here?

Using a 'dodge' to avoid a summons is just as illegal, imo.

Why don't we lobby for a proper set of legislation? In France, as was mentioned, they sorted the anarchy of two on a scooter, riding on the pavement, etc., over a weekend. They also sorted the definitions.

What is our problem? do we prefer feck it?

05-12-2019 2:50pm

grogi wrote: »

There are multiple cases in this country of people being banned from driving. Tens of times... Just keep driving...

Yes because again you see , banned because of an offence is not the same as being banned because of a crime.

Drink driving, is an offence, drink driving causing injury or loss is a crime and a custodial conviction can be applied. Remember "loss, injury" - Crime.

Drink driving , if over the limit gets you an automatic ban for 3 months and most important to the state the "fine" they can't lock you up because no harm or loss has been committed.

05-12-2019 3:15pm

BarryM wrote: »

I got a 'slap' for suggesting that the 'feck it' mentality regarding using a potentially illegal device on the public road was not helpful.

Many of the recent posts are of the same nature, and suggest creating a thread to continue in that vein.

In boards there are plenty of threats from monitors to the effect that proposing illegal actions will be sanctioned. Why not here?

Using a 'dodge' to avoid a summons is just as illegal, imo.

Why don't we lobby for a proper set of legislation? In France, as was mentioned, they sorted the anarchy of two on a scooter, riding on the pavement, etc., over a weekend. They also sorted the definitions.

What is our problem? do we prefer feck it?

No , you are incorrect, it's a game and the game is catch me if you can, the legal system in Ireland is corrupt to the core, Guards included they should get their own house in order before they try p1ss down on the citizens of this Island because sooner or later we will have Hong Kong/France protests here.

Informing People of their rights is not a crime, it's up to the Cops to hand you the summons and it's your right not to go to court until this is handed to you.

It's also your right not to collect registered post or answer the door to the guards, this is not breaking the law.

If it's a series crime they can break the door down but they can't break the door down for an offence such as so called illegal bike, not paying Motor Tax, TV license etc. These are not arrestable offences and if a cop calls you are not obliged to open the door.

People should be less willing to just role over for these corrupt organisations.

Johnboy1951 · 05-12-2019 3:26pm

rubadub wrote: »

are there any other potential issues? Like if you have a driving licence could you be banned from driving, or face huge insurance increases due to penalty points or something else.

I would guess it should have the same potential as riding a non road worthy motorbike, with no helmet, licence, insurance, tax, inadequate lights etc.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

if there was some loophole like "aha! it cannot be taxed or insured" then I guess people would just modify their uninsured, untaxed cars to be uninsurable for some reason.

I suspect not in the present circumstances ...... because electric scooters are not legislated for.

That is the basic problem at the moment.
There is no means by which to use one legitimately on public roads.

tuxy · 05-12-2019 3:46pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I suspect not in the present circumstances ...... because electric scooters are not legislated for.

Is there not legislation to a point? Are they at least recognised as mechanically propelled vehicles?

Johnboy1951 · 05-12-2019 3:53pm

tuxy wrote: »

Is there not legislation to a point? Are they at least recognised as mechanically propelled vehicles?

Have the courts recognised them as such and if so under what heading of the legislation?

tuxy · 05-12-2019 3:57pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Have the courts recognised them as such and if so under what heading of the legislation?

It has not been attempted yet as far as I know. I was just asking if people think they meet the requirements of a mechanically propelled vehicle which does have a definition under law.

Johnboy1951 · 05-12-2019 4:01pm

tuxy wrote: »

It has not been attempted yet as far as I know. I was just asking if people think they meet the requirements of a mechanically propelled vehicle which does have a definition under law.

Yes there are lots of opinions on that, but until someone wishes to test it in court there is no definitive 'opinion' as far as I am aware.

tuxy · 05-12-2019 4:05pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yes there are lots of opinions on that, but until someone wishes to test it in court there is no definitive 'opinion' as far as I am aware.

It was more of a theoretical question. I believe there is nothing about them that fails to meet the definition of a mechanically propelled vehicle but I may have overlooked something. Electrical propulsion is even specifically covered.

05-12-2019 4:09pm

Doesn't matter because there isn't a lot they can do about it, take your scooter, and fine you, you still save a fortune in time and running a car especially.

unkel · 05-12-2019 4:09pm

Of course they are mechanically propelled vehicles. Why do you think a Garda has the authority to take it off you?

tuxy · 05-12-2019 4:13pm

unkel wrote: »

Of course they are mechanically propelled vehicles. Why do you think a Garda has the authority to take it off you?

This is why I think someone thinking of getting one should be free to ask about the legalities of it on this thread.
The OP says it's a grey area and it is causing confusion as many will only read the first page before asking for more info.

05-12-2019 4:21pm

Will People choose not to have the huge benefits of these scooters at risk of a 200 Euro fine ? I think not.

The greatest issue the Government might face is loss of revenue if people change from Cars to Scooters and Ebikes. But on the other hand they range in huge sums through fines. lol

Just make them legal, pay small tax problem solved.

liamog · 05-12-2019 4:29pm

You might want to visit the legal forum for clarification on offence vs crime.
Your distinction is meaningless.

The crime is either a summary offence or an indictable offence, a summary offence is dealt with by a judge on their own after a summons, usually to a lower court. An indictable offence can be tried by a judge and jury. higher court. Motoring offences are a subset of summary offences but are still dealt with in the same way.

For the purpose of using an electric scooter in a public place, you have committed a summary offence which will be dealt with by a district court. Namely the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle without insurance, registration, motor tax, or a valid test certificate.

Johnboy1951 · 05-12-2019 4:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Will People choose not to have the huge benefits of these scooters at risk of a 200 Euro fine ? I think not.

The greatest issue the Government might face is loss of revenue if people change from Cars to Scooters and Ebikes. But on the other hand they range in huge sums through fines. lol

Just make them legal, pay small tax problem solved.

If they ever drive on the road (except for cycle lanes) they should require insurance.
TBH, it is long past time that insurance was mandatory for use of cycle lanes also, even if that was minimal insurance.

tuxy · 05-12-2019 4:31pm

liamog wrote: »

For the purpose of using an electric scooter in a public place, you have committed a summary offence which will be dealt with by a district court. Namely the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle without insurance, registration, motor tax, or a valid test certificate.

Two of these offence come with mandatory points added to your driving licence don't they?

Also if you wish to reclaim a scooter that has been seized can you do so since it is not an illegal item, only illegal to use on a public road.

tuxy · 05-12-2019 4:34pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If they ever drive on the road (except for cycle lanes) they should require insurance.
TBH, it is long past time that insurance was mandatory for use of cycle lanes also, even if that was minimal insurance.

I'd love to be able to get reasonably priced insurance for my push bike but it is impossible and the cycling Ireland insurance does not cover commuting or an incident involving another cycling Ireland member.

No company will cover me to a level that is adequate for using a push bike on a public road.
What are the chances of a company stepping up and supplying insurance for an electric scooter if push bikes are already considered too high risk in this country?

Johnboy1951 · 05-12-2019 4:35pm

liamog wrote: »

You might want to visit the legal forum for clarification on offence vs crime.
Your distinction is meaningless.

The crime is either a summary offence or an indictable offence, a summary offence is dealt with by a judge on their own after a summons, usually to a lower court. An indictable offence can be tried by a judge and jury. higher court. Motoring offences are a subset of summary offences but are still dealt with in the same way.

For the purpose of using an electric scooter in a public place, you have committed a summary offence which will be dealt with by a district court. Namely the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle without insurance, registration, motor tax, or a valid test certificate.

Have many such cases gone through the system?

05-12-2019 4:43pm

liamog wrote: »

. Namely the use of a mechanically propelled vehicle without insurance, registration, motor tax, or a valid test certificate.

And you get a fine yeah ? big deal.

05-12-2019 4:46pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If they ever drive on the road (except for cycle lanes) they should require insurance.
TBH, it is long past time that insurance was mandatory for use of cycle lanes also, even if that was minimal insurance.

Absolutely agree. I've been saying it all along,

In fact Cyclists are leaving themselves open by not having insurance.

20 Euro motor tax and 100 a year insurance, guaranteed a lot of People would pay it. And above all fully legal.

What's the incentive though for the Government/courts to make these legal ?

They provide little revenue to the state.

tuxy · 05-12-2019 4:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely agree. I've been saying it all along,

In fact Cyclists are leaving themselves open by not having insurance.

How would insurance be obtained when no company will offer it?
Cycling Ireland has tried to obtain full cover as part of membership but you can't force insurance companies to offer this.

Johnboy1951 · 05-12-2019 4:53pm

tuxy wrote: »

How would insurance be obtained when no company will offer it?
Cycling Ireland has tried to obtain full cover as part of membership but you can't force insurance companies to offer this.

The government has the power ..... even the obligation .... to step in and do it if 'the market' fails to provide it.

tuxy · 05-12-2019 4:57pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The government has the power ..... even the obligation .... to step in and do it if 'the market' fails to provide it.

I would love if this happened but it won't under the current government and probably won't when FF get in next election.
The whole insurance industry is badly in need of reform but for now the cartel is supported at government level.

Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

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