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Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

goz83

Mod Note: I've discussed with site admins, due to the current legal situation recommendations cannot be made for use of electric scooters on public roads in Ireland, but can be made for use on private property. However, we will allow discussion of e-scooters for purchase for use on private property, and other jurisdictions such as France/Germany where they are legal for use. This restriction will be lifted as soon as the legal situation changes, which will hopefully be soon.

I was thinking of getting one of those xiaomi m365 folding scooters to cover the last 5 kilometres of the journey as I come into the city and traffic gets mad. I am looking for peoples experiences with them.

I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

I’ll be travelling about 15km each way from urban to city. Due to a back injury, I can’t spend an hour stuck in traffic twice per day. I can’t tolerate public transport and it would be much more expensive (over €100 per month, compared to about €5 per month in my Leaf and m365).

So, my plan would be to drive about 10km and park the car before hitting the city centre. Parking would be free as I would be well outside the cc. I would then scoot the rest of the way to my destination and do the reverse on my return journey. I wouldn’t be stuck in traffic for too long and the range of the scooter should easily cover the return journey without destination charging. The scooter will cost around €400 to buy and claims 30km per charge...I am expecting 15.

What do you think?

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Johnboy1951

tuxy wrote: »

Is there not legislation to a point? Are they at least recognised as mechanically propelled vehicles?

Have the courts recognised them as such and if so under what heading of the legislation?

tuxy

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I suspect not in the present circumstances ...... because electric scooters are not legislated for.

Is there not legislation to a point? Are they at least recognised as mechanically propelled vehicles?

Johnboy1951

rubadub wrote: »

are there any other potential issues? Like if you have a driving licence could you be banned from driving, or face huge insurance increases due to penalty points or something else.

I would guess it should have the same potential as riding a non road worthy motorbike, with no helmet, licence, insurance, tax, inadequate lights etc.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

if there was some loophole like "aha! it cannot be taxed or insured" then I guess people would just modify their uninsured, untaxed cars to be uninsurable for some reason.

I suspect not in the present circumstances ...... because electric scooters are not legislated for.

That is the basic problem at the moment.
There is no means by which to use one legitimately on public roads.

[Deleted User]

BarryM wrote: »

I got a 'slap' for suggesting that the 'feck it' mentality regarding using a potentially illegal device on the public road was not helpful.

Many of the recent posts are of the same nature, and suggest creating a thread to continue in that vein.

In boards there are plenty of threats from monitors to the effect that proposing illegal actions will be sanctioned. Why not here?

Using a 'dodge' to avoid a summons is just as illegal, imo.

Why don't we lobby for a proper set of legislation? In France, as was mentioned, they sorted the anarchy of two on a scooter, riding on the pavement, etc., over a weekend. They also sorted the definitions.

What is our problem? do we prefer feck it?

No , you are incorrect, it's a game and the game is catch me if you can, the legal system in Ireland is corrupt to the core, Guards included they should get their own house in order before they try p1ss down on the citizens of this Island because sooner or later we will have Hong Kong/France protests here.

Informing People of their rights is not a crime, it's up to the Cops to hand you the summons and it's your right not to go to court until this is handed to you.

It's also your right not to collect registered post or answer the door to the guards, this is not breaking the law.

If it's a series crime they can break the door down but they can't break the door down for an offence such as so called illegal bike, not paying Motor Tax, TV license etc. These are not arrestable offences and if a cop calls you are not obliged to open the door.

People should be less willing to just role over for these corrupt organisations.

[Deleted User]

grogi wrote: »

There are multiple cases in this country of people being banned from driving. Tens of times... Just keep driving...

Yes because again you see , banned because of an offence is not the same as being banned because of a crime.

Drink driving, is an offence, drink driving causing injury or loss is a crime and a custodial conviction can be applied. Remember "loss, injury" - Crime.

Drink driving , if over the limit gets you an automatic ban for 3 months and most important to the state the "fine" they can't lock you up because no harm or loss has been committed.

BarryM

I got a 'slap' for suggesting that the 'feck it' mentality regarding using a potentially illegal device on the public road was not helpful.

Many of the recent posts are of the same nature, and suggest creating a thread to continue in that vein.

In boards there are plenty of threats from monitors to the effect that proposing illegal actions will be sanctioned. Why not here?

Using a 'dodge' to avoid a summons is just as illegal, imo.

Why don't we lobby for a proper set of legislation? In France, as was mentioned, they sorted the anarchy of two on a scooter, riding on the pavement, etc., over a weekend. They also sorted the definitions.

What is our problem? do we prefer feck it?

[Deleted User]

rubadub wrote: »

are there any other potential issues? Like if you have a driving licence could you be banned from driving, or face huge insurance increases due to penalty points or something else.

I would guess it should have the same potential as riding a non road worthy motorbike, with no helmet, licence, insurance, tax, inadequate lights etc.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

if there was some loophole like "aha! it cannot be taxed or insured" then I guess people would just modify their uninsured, untaxed cars to be uninsurable for some reason.

I do not know, I see absolutely nothing to suggest that points can be applied, think of it this way, this is a very, very minor "offence" and it would be a pointless "pun intended" exercise applying points when the vast majority of People on these scooters probably do not have a license in the first place.

Remember the vast majority of these fines bring in massive revenue to the state, the Judicial system won't allow that to stop and all they are interested in is getting People in Pay the state money and get them out again so they don't want you going to a higher court with stupid crap like this when the lower court is expected to do their job and just hand out fines.

I would be in favour or proper regulation and proper sensible insurance because make no mistake, if you hit someone causing "harm" remember the key words here "harm" through injury or another key word "loss" loss because the person is unable to work and / or has to pay medical bills then the guards can arrest and now it's a crime.

This grey area is not good for anyone and if accidents become regular they will have to do something about it.

Dublin has plenty of side streets than can be cycle / scooter lanes away from traffic and People.

Not only a crime it's now probably going to cost you through fines +

grogi

rubadub wrote: »

are there any other potential issues? Like if you have a driving licence could you be banned from driving, or face huge insurance increases due to penalty points or something else.

I would guess it should have the same potential as riding a non road worthy motorbike, with no helmet, licence, insurance, tax, inadequate lights etc.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

if there was some loophole like "aha! it cannot be taxed or insured" then I guess people would just modify their uninsured, untaxed cars to be uninsurable for some reason.

There are multiple cases in this country of people being banned from driving. Tens of times... Just keep driving...

rubadub

Deleted User wrote: »

So, the most people should expect if caught with a so called illegal scooter is a slap on the wrist and a fine but you are not a criminal lol.

are there any other potential issues? Like if you have a driving licence could you be banned from driving, or face huge insurance increases due to penalty points or something else.

I would guess it should have the same potential as riding a non road worthy motorbike, with no helmet, licence, insurance, tax, inadequate lights etc.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_insurance.html

Failure to have motor insurance or driving without insurance in Ireland is generally punishable by:

A fine of up to €5,000
5 penalty points and
At the discretion of the court, a term of imprisonment not exceeding six months.
The court may decide that you be disqualified from driving instead of incurring penalty points. In that case, you will be disqualified for 2 years or more for a first offence and 4 years or more in the case of a second offence committed within 3 years of the first.

if there was some loophole like "aha! it cannot be taxed or insured" then I guess people would just modify their uninsured, untaxed cars to be uninsurable for some reason.

[Deleted User]

From Citizens information.

A summons must be served at least 7 days before the court date if it is served by personal delivery, or 21 days before the court date if it is served by postal delivery.

( postal delivery, this is key here and citizens information won't tell you this, postal delivery means registered post, do not sign for registered post, do not collect at post office like a fool, a Judge won't take the word of a postman, the Judge wants proof, your signature is proof, don't give it to them

If a summons has not been correctly served, you are not obliged to appear in court in response to it. However, if you come to court, the case against you can proceed. In other words, any mistake in how the summons was served is corrected by your appearance in court.

It's about 6 months then they will go away and not bother unless they're right pricks altogether.

Mrcaramelchoc

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No, an illegal scooter, electric bike or even not having NCT or Tax it's not a crime, it's an offence , there is a difference, this is why these offences ( not crimes ) are dealt with in the district court.

First off, if caught with a so called illegal scooter and they summons you , don't answer the door and don't collect registered mail , they have to get you within 3 months or the judge won't entertain the Guards.

You're not going to be jailed unless it's a series offence, an by that I mean causing harm or loss.

All the district Court Judge wants is to get revenue from you to the state, he's not interested in sending people to jail or handing out harsh fines because he doesn't want his ruling overturned in a higher court which happens more than you might think , it makes them look bad because the higher court expects the lower court to just get it out of the way and get the money.

The district/circuit court is absolutely massive source of revenue to the State.

So, the most people should expect if caught with a so called illegal scooter is a slap on the wrist and a fine but you are not a criminal lol.

You will also probably have your scooter taken, and if you ever have a car or scooter taken do not sign anything, you are not obliged to sign anything the Guards give you for impounding anything, doing so gives them authority for them to charge you impound fees, if you don't sign anything they can't charge you anything. Unless your vehicle is worth a lot more money then they have you. Just because a Guard tells you to do something doesn't mean you are in any way obliged to do so, but you need to know when they can.

Again, a traffic offence is that, an offence not a crime, you can be arrested and convicted of a crime if that includes but in no way limited to causing harm, injury or loss. You can't be arrested for having an illegal bike or scooter and sending you to Jail will cost the state a lot more money then they would get from you in fines so obviously their intention is to get you to pay money.

In actual fact , if you went to court regularly all they can do is fine you and you'd still be making massive savings compared to owning a car, no tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel and maintenance.

I think that should be stickied!for everyone to see.

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

A crime is defined as an act which can be punished by the State, a motoring offence is still a crime, it's dealt with by the district court, simply because they are defined as a summary offence.

It's illegal because it's contrary to Section VI of the Road Traffic Act.
Which states

Subsection 3 then goes on to outline the punishment.

No, an illegal scooter, electric bike or even not having NCT or Tax it's not a crime, it's an offence , there is a difference, this is why these offences ( not crimes ) are dealt with in the district court.

First off, if caught with a so called illegal scooter and they summons you , don't answer the door and don't collect registered mail , they have to get you within 6 months or the judge won't entertain the Guards.

You're not going to be jailed unless it's a series offence, an by that I mean causing harm or loss.

All the district Court Judge wants is to get revenue from you to the state, he's not interested in sending people to jail or handing out harsh fines because he doesn't want his ruling overturned in a higher court which happens more than you might think , it makes them look bad because the higher court expects the lower court to just get it out of the way and get the money.

The district/circuit court is absolutely massive source of revenue to the State.

So, the most people should expect if caught with a so called illegal scooter is a slap on the wrist and a fine but you are not a criminal lol.

You will also probably have your scooter taken, and if you ever have a car or scooter taken do not sign anything, you are not obliged to sign anything the Guards give you for impounding anything, doing so gives them authority for them to charge you impound fees, if you don't sign anything they can't charge you anything. Unless your vehicle is worth a lot more money then they have you. Just because a Guard tells you to do something doesn't mean you are in any way obliged to do so, but you need to know when they can.

Again, a traffic offence is that, an offence not a crime, you can be arrested and convicted of a crime if that includes but in no way limited to causing harm, injury or loss. You can't be arrested for having an illegal bike or scooter and sending you to Jail will cost the state a lot more money then they would get from you in fines so obviously their intention is to get you to pay money.

In actual fact , if you went to court regularly all they can do is fine you and you'd still be making massive savings compared to owning a car, no tax, insurance, depreciation, fuel and maintenance.

rubadub

championc wrote: »

Can we please stop this sh1te and stay on topic.

how is it not on topic? threads often stray from the original post and there can be loads of other discussion later.

BUT -in this case the legality was mentioned in the very first post and discussed throughout the thread.

first post was spouting incorrect information.

goz83 wrote: »

I understand they are in a bit of a legal grey area, but you need to push this scooter to get going, so technically it doesn’t operate on mechanical power alone which is what the rsa site mentions as the definition of an mpv.

Some have a vested interest in keeping this myth alive and so want to perpetuate it and shut down any discussion of legality, which I think is absolutely disgraceful.

liamog

tuxy wrote: »

Only answering a genuine question that someone should know before they purchase one.

Yeah exactly, as of right now, the only way you can recommend a folding electric scooter for use at the end of a commute in Ireland, would be if the end of your commute was entirely on private property.
Anything else is a suggestion to do something illegal, which is against boards.ie rules.

I'm in Paris Monday to Friday, the scooters here are brilliant. The sooner we can get sensible legislation in Ireland the better.

tuxy

championc wrote: »

Can we please stop this sh1te and stay on topic. Maybe open a new thread for like minded people to have their say.

Only answering a genuine question that someone should know before they purchase one.

championc

tuxy wrote: »

No category for tax, no company that will insure them.

Can we please stop this sh1te and stay on topic. Maybe open a new thread for like minded people to have their say.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

No it's not , it's an offence. It's not a criminal matter. That's where the circus courts come in to handle this BS , extracting money from people.

A crime is defined as an act which can be punished by the State, a motoring offence is still a crime, it's dealt with by the district court, simply because they are defined as a summary offence.

It's illegal because it's contrary to Section VI of the Road Traffic Act.
Which states

(1) A person (in this subsection referred to as the user) shall not use in a public place a mechanically propelled vehicle unless either a vehicle insurer, a vehicle guarantor or an exempted person would be liable for injury caused by the negligent use of the vehicle by him at that time or there is in force at that time either
(a) it may, in so far as it relates to injury to property, be limited to the sum of
€1,120,000 per claim, whatever the number of victims,
(b) an approved guarantee whereby there is guaranteed the payment by the user, or some other person who would be liable for injury caused by the negligent use of the vehicle at that time by the user, of all sums without limit (save as is hereinafter otherwise provided) which the user or his personal representative or such other person or his personal representative shall become liable to pay to any person (exclusive of the excepted persons) by way of damages or costs on account of injury to person or property caused by the negligent use of the vehicle at that time by the user.

Subsection 3 then goes on to outline the punishment.

(3) Where a person contravenes subsection (1) of this section, he and, if he is not the owner of the vehicle, such owner shall each be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €5,000 or, at the discretion of the court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding six months or to both such fine and such imprisonment

tuxy

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

Can they be taxed and or insured?

No category for tax, no company that will insure them.

Mrcaramelchoc

Can they be taxed and or insured?

championc

rubadub wrote: »

^^ that same guy was back on the monowheel today.

I was talking to him at the lights and he said she just warned him to stick to cycle tracks and not be on footpaths.

There was a male garda in the same area this morning, this time at the lights, I was saying hello to him, he was right at the road so yer man had to pass him closely. I looked back and saw the guy passed on the monowheel with nothing said.

So no crackdown or and I still have no idea why the gardai are at that spot where there is never an issue!

Refreshing to see common sense prevailing

[Deleted User]

Basically they got 3 months to get you to court and if they haven't found you actually handed you that summons they can't do sh1t about it.

They can't say they gave it to the Wife etc.

[Deleted User]

liamog wrote: »

In the absence of other legislation, they fall under the legal definition of a mechanically propelled vehicles (MPV).

It is illegal to use an MPV on a public road without tax, registration, and insurance. It's not possible to obtain these, therefore they cannot legally be used on a public road.

No it's not , it's an offence. It's not a criminal matter. That's where the circus courts come in to handle this BS , extracting money from people.

[Deleted User]

Mrcaramelchoc wrote: »

I hope they are just after people acting the maggot and not people just commuting responsibly.

They're after anyone who they think they can drag through the circus courts, i.e the circuit courts and extract money from, these courts are a gravy train for the Government.

Ebikes/scooters that do not comply with laws are not complying with an act which is not a criminal offence but it can still land people in court to pay money to the Government.

It's tricky because they can't really send a fine in the post, for an "illegal" ebike, scooter so I don't know how they would get you to court on that.

My advice to people is if they have been done for so called illegal bikes, scooters never answer the door to strangers and never, ever collect registered post as it will most likely be a summons.

liamog

Deleted User wrote: »

What's considered illegal here about these bikes / scooters ?

Are People sure they're talking about a crime or an offence ? an offence is not a crime, there is a difference.

In the absence of other legislation, they fall under the legal definition of a mechanically propelled vehicles (MPV).

It is illegal to use an MPV on a public road without tax, registration, and insurance. It's not possible to obtain these, therefore they cannot legally be used on a public road.

Mrcaramelchoc

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What's considered illegal here about these bikes / scooters ?

Are People sure they're talking about a crime or an offence ? an offence is not a crime, there is a difference.

I hope they are just after people acting the maggot and not people just commuting responsibly.

[Deleted User]

What's considered illegal here about these bikes / scooters ?

Are People sure they're talking about a crime or an offence ? an offence is not a crime, there is a difference.

beauf

Maybe someone got knocked over on the path.

creedp

rubadub wrote: »

^^ that same guy was back on the monowheel today.

I was talking to him at the lights and he said she just warned him to stick to cycle tracks and not be on footpaths.

There was a male garda in the same area this morning, this time at the lights, I was saying hello to him, he was right at the road so yer man had to pass him closely. I looked back and saw the guy passed on the monowheel with nothing said.

So no crackdown or and I still have no idea why the gardai are at that spot where there is never an issue!

Possibly using the same logic as that used for the location of the mobile speed cameras - supposedly located at accident black spots but in reality located at 'shooting fish in barrel' locations instead

rubadub

^^ that same guy was back on the monowheel today.

I was talking to him at the lights and he said she just warned him to stick to cycle tracks and not be on footpaths.

There was a male garda in the same area this morning, this time at the lights, I was saying hello to him, he was right at the road so yer man had to pass him closely. I looked back and saw the guy passed on the monowheel with nothing said.

So no crackdown or and I still have no idea why the gardai are at that spot where there is never an issue!

rubadub

posted in cycling

rubadub wrote: »

rubadub wrote: »

Another from them here showing a commute on the N11. Starts off in Kilbogget park, then goes the wrong way on a cycle lane for a bit

Saw a guy being nabbed by a garda on the N11 this morning at cornelscourt, possibly this lad on the monowheel.

Just here https://goo.gl/maps/s4FkAo6Yti8HDyqH9 (I love the fact google maps reveals all the non compliant election posters!).

It seems to me the garda was possibly laying in wait for him, I have travelled on that road since it opened and have never seen gardai at that point. They would be at cabinteely as there is a garda station there and people crossing etc.

After that an ambulance passed me and I guess got blocked at whitescross as the bus lane was packed with cars again, like one I saw recently. No garda there of course.

I wondered if they want it in the papers that they are being seized before xmas to put people off considering getting them. I warned another woman on an escooter later.