E scooters and space cadets

Briain O Loinsigh · 10-11-2019 11:10am #1

Hello ,
I'm traveling in busy traffic last week coming from ballymount and as I come to walkinstown roundabout ,there's a space cadet on a scooter essentially navigating the total roundabout.
He cut three Lanes and proceeded on the inner part of the roundabout , he resembled a fly hovering a ultra Violet light in a butcher shop.

Seriously , some of these guys have absolutely no road experience and are a danger to all road users ,I can't say including themselves because they cannot be road users.

Hopefully we come up with something before they get genuine ebike users a blanket ban on all battery operated equipment.

LeinsterDub · 10-11-2019 11:54am

Briain O Loinsigh wrote: »

Hello ,
I'm traveling in busy traffic last week coming from ballymount and as I come to walkinstown roundabout ,there's a space cadet on a scooter essentially navigating the total roundabout.
He cut three Lanes and proceeded on the inner part of the roundabout , he resembled a fly hovering a ultra Violet light in a butcher shop.

Seriously , some of these guys have absolutely no road experience and are a danger to all road users ,I can't say including themselves because they cannot be road users.

Hopefully we come up with something before they get genuine ebike users a blanket ban on all battery operated equipment.

Yeah it's the guys with the kinetic energy equivalent of a jogger that are a danger to all road users

donvito99 · 10-11-2019 12:02pm

We have reached peak motorist hysteria when somebody on a shaggin battery powered scooter is a danger to ALL roadusers

Briain O Loinsigh · 10-11-2019 12:31pm

donvito99 wrote: »

We have reached peak motorist hysteria when somebody on a shaggin battery powered scooter is a danger to ALL roadusers

Some of these lads are on footpaths and cycle Lanes , no regard. I was on my bike and nearly collided with one. Some of them have no regard for any road users ,pedestrians ,cyclists , motor cyclists , cars , trucks , buses and their own safety.
I've a wide view on road users , not individuals

LeinsterDub · 10-11-2019 12:54pm

Briain O Loinsigh wrote: »

Some of these lads are on footpaths and cycle Lanes , no regard. I was on my bike and nearly collided with one. Some of them have no regard for any road users ,pedestrians ,cyclists , motor cyclists , cars , trucks , buses and their own safety.
I've a wide view on road users , not individuals

I was nearly selected to play county and then I nearly won the lotto and then I was nearly a Hollywood star

Briain O Loinsigh · 10-11-2019 1:22pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I was nearly selected to play county and then I nearly won the lotto and the I was nearly a Hollywood star

You nearly had me there ,class

donvito99 · 10-11-2019 5:09pm

I don't see how a dangerous scootist is more dangerous than a dangerous cyclist.

Certainly nowhere near as dangerous as dangerous motorists.

And yet who do I see the guards going after...

AlekSmart · 10-11-2019 5:16pm

donvito99 wrote: »

We have reached peak motorist hysteria when somebody on a shaggin battery powered scooter is a danger to ALL roadusers

Long past that...:)

As it currently stands,all we are waiting for is the,now inevitable,fatality involving an e-scooter user being killed by a Truck/Bus or car.

The combination of speed,lack of physical movement,and inconspicuity applied directly atop an already overburdened road design system,will soon justify the "Hysteria"

With every fatal Road Traffic Incident costing in excess of €2,000,000,any means of reducing such events,even if thought hysterical,should be encouraged ?

magicbastarder · 10-11-2019 5:23pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

As it currently stands,all we are waiting for is the,now inevitable,fatality involving an e-scooter user being killed by a Truck/Bus or car.

sounds like we should do something about these dangerous 'car' things.

pablo128 · 10-11-2019 5:30pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

sounds like we should do something about these dangerous 'car' things.

We already are. My missus just got a newer car. Not anything particularly fancy or big, but it has a feature called 'autonomous braking'. This will automatically apply the brakes without any driver input if it senses an imminent collision, whether it be another vehicle, or a pedestrian.

Tell me, is there any scooter, bicycle, or any other 2 wheeled or self propelled vehicle with such a feature?

donvito99 · 10-11-2019 5:31pm

pablo128 wrote: »

We already are. My missus just got a newer car. Not anything particularly fancy or big, but it has a feature called 'autonomous braking'. This will automatically apply the brakes without any driver input if it senses an imminent collision, whether it be another vehicle, or a pedestrian.

Tell me, is there and scooter, bicycle, or any other 2 wheeled or self propelled vehicle with such a feature?

Isn't it telling that we now need to make cars that will stop automatically because their drivers won't

pablo128 · 10-11-2019 5:35pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Isn't it telling that we now need to make cars that will stop automatically because their drivers won't

Isn't it telling that cars are available with this feature, because some dopey cyclists, pedestrians and other road users can't mind themselves or go through red lights etc.

As it happens, most of this model of car doesn't have this feature, just the highest spec ones. I guess you better hope you cycle out in front of my missus and not someone else who couldn't quite stretch to the top spec.

donvito99 · 10-11-2019 5:39pm

pablo128 wrote: »

Isn't it telling that cars are available with this feature, because some dopey cyclists, pedestrians and other road users can't mind themselves or go through red lights etc.

As it happens, most of this model of car doesn't have this feature, just the highest spec ones. I guess you better hope you cycle out in front of my missus and not someone else who couldn't quite stretch to the top spec.

We have a thread about the supposed danger of e-scooters and yet 150ish people are still dying on the roads every year thanks to, you guessed it, your missus' cohort in their cars.

That's not to mention all the traffic your missus is causing our cities. Get her an bicycle, e-bike or e-scooter and suddenly there's no need for high spec features to make up for shoddy Irish drivers.

is_that_so · 10-11-2019 5:40pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Isn't it telling that we now need to make cars that will stop automatically because their drivers won't

And they they still can't do that either! As for the e-scooter thing, some effort ends to be made to regulate their use and where they can and can't go. Seems users are just making it up. As a road user they don't bother me, despite my own personal views about the activity, and any encounters as a pedestrian, to me have shown user caution.

is_that_so · 10-11-2019 5:41pm

donvito99 wrote: »

We have a thread about the supposed danger of e-scooters and yet 150ish people are still dying on the roads every year thanks to, you guessed it, your missus' cohort in their cars.

That's not to mention all the traffic your missus is causing our cities. Get her an bicycle, e-bike or e-scooter and suddenly there's no need for high spec features to make up for shoddy Irish drivers.

Yeah and tack on a trailer for the sprogs or shopping!

pablo128 · 10-11-2019 5:42pm

donvito99 wrote: »

We have a thread about the supposed danger of e-scooters and yet 150ish people are still dying on the roads every year thanks to, you guessed it, your missus' cohort in their cars.

That's not to mention all the traffic your missus is causing our cities. Get her an bicycle, e-bike or e-scooter and suddenly there's no need for high spec features to make up for shoddy Irish drivers.

We are not peasants who have to cycle to work. We like to travel in comfort, with the heating/aircon on, dry as a bone, and not soaked in sweat before we begin our days work.

I did it for long enough when I was younger. It's not for me anymore.

pablo128 · 10-11-2019 5:45pm

is_that_so wrote: »

And they they still can't do that either! As for the e-scooter thing, some effort ends to be made to regulate their use and where they can and can't go. Seems users are just making it up. As a road user they don't bother me, despite my own personal views about the activity, and any encounters as a pedestrian, to me have shown user caution.

I was in Spain this year walking along a footpath, when 2 lads on these scooters came up behind us blasting their horns for us to move.

Cheeky little fcuks.

is_that_so · 10-11-2019 5:47pm

pablo128 wrote: »

I was in Spain this year walking along a footpath, when 2 lads on these scooters came up behind us blasting their horns for us to move.

Cheeky little fcuks.

"Que te den por culo!" is the response! :pac:

donvito99 · 10-11-2019 5:48pm

pablo128 wrote: »

We are not peasants who have to cycle to work. We like to travel in comfort, with the heating/aircon on, dry as a bone, and not soaked in sweat before we begin our days work.

I did it for long enough when I was younger. It's not for me anymore.

Jaysis it's not wonder we are the most congested city in Western Europe.

Ban the bikes, scooters and mandatory high spec imported car to go everywhere. Problem solved

pablo128 · 10-11-2019 5:58pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Jaysis it's not wonder we are the most congested city in Western Europe.

Ban the bikes, scooters and mandatory high spec imported car to go everywhere. Problem solved

You must be under the illusion that Ireland is some sort of cycling Utopia. It certainly isn't. Holland is. I have lived there. The most remote country town there has proper cycling facilities. However the whole country is completely flat, to the extent that most bicycles you would see in everyday use are single speed. 49 cc mopeds are allowed in cycle lanes, and don't need insurance.

However these vehicles and bicycles stay in the cycle lanes, and everyone else stays out of them. They also have right of way at junctions. Everyone is on the same page.

In Ireland every road user is lumped onto the same piece of tarmac. Cyclists won't use cycle lanes, scooters should be, but aren't, and zero policing of any of it.

So the crux of my argument is that we won't be giving up our cars any time soon.

AlekSmart · 10-11-2019 6:10pm

donvito99 wrote: »

Isn't it telling that we now need to make cars that will stop automatically because their drivers won't

It could be "telling" you many things,but in life we are well capable of filtering out the stuff we don't wish to hear.

Human nature plays a very large part in our various behaviours,and finding a way to control and manage it is an inherent part of developed societies everywhere.

This stands for scooterists,cyclists,pilots,drivers and high-wire trapeze artists equally.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/6/20951385/uber-self-driving-crash-death-reason-ntsb-dcouments

In the midst of much of the apparent quest to bring society back to a quieter,less frantic way of life,where gentlemen doffed their hats to ladies,and children were seen and not heard,the reality is of our roads being FAR safer than at any point in our history,in spite of there being far more drivers and vehicles than ever.

We now have an average life expectancy of 70+ compared to barely making it into the 40's in the Pennyfarthing era,yet we rarely see this reality publicised.

Society is doing a lot correctly,but occasionally it has to go that extra millimetre,such as reminding a nippy ElectroScooteriste of the potential drawbacks of their nippybess.

Some societies though,have a bit less patience than our own....

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/trundling-trouble-singapore-targets-e-scooters-accidents-050749889--finance.html

E-scooters were already banned from Singapore's roads but they are now prohibited on all pavements and other footpaths, and can only be used on cycle paths and a network of routes connecting parks.

To start with, most riders caught breaking the rule will be given a warning but from January, offenders face being jailed for up to three months and fined.

Ah ye can't be doing that.....:eek:

Ride on,as Christy Moore might warble....:)

AlekSmart · 10-11-2019 6:24pm

pablo128 wrote: »

You must be under the illusion that Ireland is some sort of cycling Utopia. It certainly isn't. Holland is. I have lived there. The most remote country town there has proper cycling facilities. However the whole country is completely flat, to the extent that most bicycles you would see in everyday use are single speed. 49 cc mopeds are allowed in cycle lanes, and don't need insurance.

However these vehicles and bicycles stay in the cycle lanes, and everyone else stays out of them. They also have right of way at junctions. Everyone is on the same page.

In Ireland every road user is lumped onto the same piece of tarmac. Cyclists won't use cycle lanes, scooters should be, but aren't, and zero policing of any of it.

So the crux of my argument is that we won't be giving up our cars any time soon.

There's no crux...cos,to most disinterested observers,there's no arguement.

Currently,Dublin City Council has some Professionally qualified Roads Engineers,Planners and such like who are,apparently,fully prepared to design or approve situations such as exist along Leeson St,featuring a peak flow of an 11-14 Tonne Bus every 2 minutes interacting with customers on the pavement whilst attempting to cater for/reason with a stream of cyclists deliberately placed between Bus and Pavement...wtf

.

It is as if Civic Officies is run by a McMurphy like executive,who may only be feigning insanity...or then again,perhaps really IS insane ?....the answer can only be arrived at after first inspecting DCC's substantial catalogue of such locations.

railer201 · 13-11-2019 3:05pm

Just an opinion but I can't see how our roads are up to spec. which allows for the small diameter wheels of E-scooters. I regularly see potholes, missing shore covers, raised manhole covers, ridges due to subsidence - all of which are capable of sending these mini-wheeled vehicles and their pilots head over heels. That's apart from balance issues - quite a few wobbly E-scooterists out there !

Stark · 13-11-2019 3:54pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

In the midst of much of the apparent quest to bring society back to a quieter,less frantic way of life,where gentlemen doffed their hats to ladies,and children were seen and not heard,the reality is of our roads being FAR safer than at any point in our history,in spite of there being far more drivers and vehicles than ever.

At some point horse and carriages gave way to the motor car as it was more convenient for people, despite the obvious drawbacks when it came to safety, noise pollution, air pollution etc.

Public transport infrastructure in this country is full of gaps and it seems scooters are plugging that gap. The safety drawbacks seem to be vastly vastly over-stated.

whisky_galore · 13-11-2019 9:07pm

Stark wrote: »

At some point horseless carriages gave way to the motor car as it was more convenient for people, despite the obvious drawbacks when it came to safety.

Public transport infrastructure in this country is full of gaps and it seems scooters are plugging that gap. The safety drawbacks seem to be vastly vastly over-stated.

A horseless carriage IS a motor car!

Working class heroes · 13-11-2019 11:57pm

Stark wrote: »

At some point horseless carriages gave way to the motor car as it was more convenient for people, despite the obvious drawbacks when it came to safety.

Public transport infrastructure in this country is full of gaps and it seems scooters are plugging that gap. The safety drawbacks seem to be vastly vastly over-stated.

Cars are regulated. Electric scooters and the “people” who use them are not.
At the moment they are illegal and should not be on a road or footpath. They are leaving themselves open to been arrested or worse.
My child was hit by one of these clowns but I better say no more, eh mods?

Stark · 14-11-2019 1:04am

whisky_galore wrote: »

A horseless carriage IS a motor car!

Oops, horse and carriage I meant. Post edited.

magicbastarder · 14-11-2019 9:15am

Working class heroes wrote: »

At the moment they are illegal and should not be on a road or footpath. They are leaving themselves open to been arrested or worse.

arrested? i don't think it's a criminal offence to use one, but a civil offence. not sure what the 'or worse' means though.

Working class heroes · 14-11-2019 12:34pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

arrested? i don't think it's a criminal offence to use one, but a civil offence. not sure what the 'or worse' means though.

So you agree it’s an offense then?

You can use your imagination on what might be worse.

monument · 14-11-2019 12:39pm

donvito99 wrote: »

That's not to mention all the traffic your missus is causing our cities. Get her an bicycle, e-bike or e-scooter and suddenly there's no need for high spec features to make up for shoddy Irish drivers.

Just to be clear here:

Anybody advocating for people to use of electric scooters at the moment should be clear that such requires everything an electric moped requires including motorcycle helmet, licence, third party insurance, indicators, motor tax etc.

You should not be comparing them to being as easy to get on from a legal perspective as a bicycle or electric bicycle.

Until the law is changed, this is not open to debate.

Just to note: I know I’m annoying both sides here — some people think it’s harmless advocating for current use of motor vehicles without following the law and others think these posts should be deleted because I delete posts advocating assault on scooters users. This is a compromise.

— moderator

magicbastarder · 14-11-2019 12:44pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

So you agree it’s an offense then?

You can use your imagination on what might be worse.

i don't think it's a matter of 'agreeing' per se - it *is* an offence whether i agree or not, if you follow me.

don't leave it to me to guess what you're hinting at, as i am assuming you mean physical violence, but i also assume you wouldn't be that idiotic.

monument · 14-11-2019 12:52pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Cars are regulated. Electric scooters and the “people” who use them are not.
At the moment they are illegal and should not be on a road or footpath. They are leaving themselves open to been arrested or worse.
My child was hit by one of these clowns but I better say no more, eh mods?

I can see where you’re coming from, and you’re welcome say what you want about the dangers of them or them.

But you’re not welcome to advocating assaulting people, or discussing moderation in threads — I’m sorry, but you’re not even allowed to be hinting at these.

Btw: it should not matter: you might have the wrong end of the stick here: my personal view is that I’m not fond of e scooters. But here while moderating, I’m enforcing the rules here.

DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS POST OR ANY OTHER MOD NOTE.
— moderator

Working class heroes · 14-11-2019 1:06pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i don't think it's a matter of 'agreeing' per se - it *is* an offence whether i agree or not, if you follow me.

don't leave it to me to guess what you're hinting at, as i am assuming you mean physical violence, but i also assume you wouldn't be that idiotic.

Ok. So you accept they are then? A simple yes or no will do.
I may or may not be that idiotic. But I’m certainly not idiotic enough to use these things illegally. Are you?

magicbastarder · 14-11-2019 2:18pm

i suspect you're reading something in my posts which is clearly not there, so i'll leave this one be.

LeinsterDub · 14-11-2019 2:22pm

railer201 wrote: »

Just an opinion but I can't see how our roads are up to spec. which allows for the small diameter wheels of E-scooters. I regularly see potholes, missing shore covers, raised manhole covers, ridges due to subsidence - all of which are capable of sending these mini-wheeled vehicles and their pilots head over heels. That's apart from balance issues - quite a few wobbly E-scooterists out there !

Hundreds if not thousands of daily users and this hasn't emerged as an issue

Stark · 14-11-2019 2:24pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Ok. So you accept they are then? A simple yes or no will do.
I may or may not be that idiotic. But I’m certainly not idiotic enough to use these things illegally. Are you?

Pretty sure assaulting people is also illegal if that's what you were getting at.

Working class heroes · 14-11-2019 2:25pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i suspect you're reading something in my posts which is clearly not there, so i'll leave this one be.

You suspect wrong. You are unable or unwilling to answer simple questions so you are probably right to leave it.

Working class heroes · 14-11-2019 2:27pm

Stark wrote: »

Pretty sure assaulting people is also illegal if that's what you were getting at.

Yes you are right it is illegal, well done you. I’ll live with the consequences of whatever I do in life but thanks for your concern.

Working class heroes · 14-11-2019 2:31pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Hundreds if not thousands of daily users and this hasn't emerged as an issue

They are either banned or heavily regulated in 4 European countries and at least 3 US states. So to say there are no issues is nonsense.
Also did you not see the issue I’ve personally had with them(posted previously).

antodeco · 14-11-2019 2:36pm

Being illegal or legal doesnt not prevent them from running into a child or another person by the way. The legality of them doesnt drive behaviour. Moronic "drivers (eg: motorists, scooterists, cyclists) are the reason accidents and issues happen. Yes, the roads do cause issues, but, common sense prevents this. I use an eScooter, and I seem muppets on them all the time, same as any other vehicle. I stop at the lights, get passed out by scooters/bicycles. Ive said this before in other threads, but a basic competency test should be required for anybody that wishes to use a road. And I mean that as blanket statement for everyone, (cyclists, scooters, horseriders, etc).

LeinsterDub · 14-11-2019 2:45pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

They are either banned or heavily regulated in 4 European countries and at least 3 US states. So to say there are no issues is nonsense.
Also did you not see the issue I’ve personally had with them(posted previously).

I wasn't replying to you or your posts. I was responding directly to the point another user made about road surface

Boom_Bap · 14-11-2019 2:47pm

Some lad rode past me here the other day while I was in slow traffic.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3924587,-6.2411799,3a,75y,185.43h,89.91t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s2uqD6q7Jxih3g6TCZ2f86Q!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D2uqD6q7Jxih3g6TCZ2f86Q%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D143.39642%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

It's quite narrow, I would wager that i's rather dangerous and doesn't meet the criteria for motorway driving.

EDIT: just noted that section is a R road, not an M one and there are no motorway rules when you enter from Coolock

LeinsterDub · 14-11-2019 2:47pm

antodeco wrote: »

Ive said this before in other threads, but a basic competency test should be required for anybody that wishes to use a road. And I mean that as blanket statement for everyone, (cyclists, scooters, horseriders, etc).

Only one section of the group is killing hundreds of people a year. You may as well call for a competency test to use a flight of stairs.

Working class heroes · 14-11-2019 2:53pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Only one section of the group is killing hundreds of people a year. You may as well call for a competency test to use a flight of stairs.

Pure whataboutery at it’s finest. Look over there.

donvito99 · 14-11-2019 6:25pm

There is absolutely no need for any kind of "basic competency test" to use the roads. Everybody knows what to do. People just choose not to do it.

And fundamentally, safety is impaired by drivers in cars. Less cars + more scooters = safer streets.

Working class heroes · 14-11-2019 6:51pm

donvito99 wrote: »

There is absolutely no need for any kind of "basic competency test" to use the roads. Everybody knows what to do. People just choose not to do it.

And fundamentally, safety is impaired by drivers in cars. Less cars + more scooters = safer streets.

Your first point is nonsense. It really is.
I agree completely with your second point. I’m all for less cars on our streets. It’s a noble goal, however, it needs to be done right. Infrastructure, regulations, enforcement of law(when legislated for) etc etc.....
Handing some clown who has no experience of the road an e scooter and told to work away is not very bright, IMO.

donvito99 · 14-11-2019 8:31pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Your first point is nonsense. It really is.
I agree completely with your second point. I’m all for less cars on our streets. It’s a noble goal, however, it needs to be done right. Infrastructure, regulations, enforcement of law(when legislated for) etc etc.....
Handing some clown who has no experience of the road an e scooter and told to work away is not very bright, IMO.

What really do you need to tell him?

Drive on left? He knows this, just doesn't do it.

Stop at red light? Again, small children know this, the most malignant drivers/scootists/cyclists refuse to stop.

Drivers have to sit actual tests and they still manage to pelt it through red lights, occupy yellow boxes, cripple bus lanes and reduce footpaths to rubble via illegal parking. Why do you expect people on scooters to be any different is they are given a "basic competency test".

It's nanny state crap.

magicbastarder · 14-11-2019 8:39pm

it's quite simple. there's no enforcement on the roads, for any sort of road user. proposing new regulations is all well and good, but the first step is enforcement of the existing regs.

monument · 14-11-2019 9:02pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Pure whataboutery at it’s finest. Look over there.

Whataboutery is a supporter of one paramilitary when confronted with the wrongs they did deflecting and saying what about the other paramilitary or what about the police or army etc.

Whataboutery might also be somebody giving out about scooter users killing children and somebody else saying what about motorists.

Whataboutery is not saying that there's relatively little danger posed by people walking, cycling and on scooters, so, they don't need a competency test. You might argue the point that they are wrong, but it's not whataboutery in any real sense of the phrase.

donvito99 · 14-11-2019 10:18pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Your first point is nonsense. It really is.

The M50 every morning does not support your argument that if people receive some sort of education or training that they will abide by whatever is supposedly instilled in them.

Or indeed every roundabout in Ireland.

Or every yellow box. And every solid white line.

Working class heroes · 14-11-2019 10:23pm

donvito99 wrote: »

What really do you need to tell him?

Drive on left? He knows this, just doesn't do it.

Stop at red light? Again, small children know this, the most malignant drivers/scootists/cyclists refuse to stop.

Drivers have to sit actual tests and they still manage to pelt it through red lights, occupy yellow boxes, cripple bus lanes and reduce footpaths to rubble via illegal parking. Why do you expect people on scooters to be any different is they are given a "basic competency test".

It's nanny state crap.

You know what assumption is the mother of, don’t ya?

E scooters and space cadets

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