Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2019 5:02pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This Unionist is pinning his hopes on this whole disaster capitalist fiasco being cancelled.

You don't need to be a Unionist to want that. In fact a goodly portion of northern Irish ones wanted this. But it seems now they want the Union more than they want Brexit, allegedly, probably etc etc.

ancapailldorcha · 01-11-2019 5:05pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Boris seems to want Brexit, everyone knew May didn't. We shall see.

May didn't? Of course she did. She pretty much did everything she could to Brexit.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You don't need to be a Unionist to want that. In fact a goodly portion of northern Irish ones wanted this. But it seems now they want the Union more than they want Brexit, allegedly, probably etc etc.

I never said you did and, yes, I do regret that so many Unionists have plumped for such a putrescent party as the DUP so loyally and consistently.

01-11-2019 5:08pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I fail to see what is so confusing about this... Seems pretty straight forward to me? They should be gone by now, the people made a choice.

Leave in what manner?
Deal, No Deal, Swiss style, WTO terms, New Terms, In a manner not blowing the GFA apart or not?

Deciding to leave is one thing, how you leave is quite something else and final agreed method should now be put to people for agreement

FunLover18 · 01-11-2019 5:11pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I fail to see what is so confusing about this... Seems pretty straight forward to me? They should be gone by now, the people made a choice.

As ohnonotgmail pointed out, nowhere does it say *how* they should leave. The idea that the 52% knew what they were voting for or even voted for the same thing doesn't hold water.

Kermit.de.frog · 01-11-2019 5:18pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I fail to see what is so confusing about this... Seems pretty straight forward to me? They should be gone by now, the people made a choice.

Remainers need a safe space. :cool:

26000 Elephants · 01-11-2019 5:22pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I fail to see what is so confusing about this... Seems pretty straight forward to me? They should be gone by now, the people made a choice.

So what's the big deal about October 31st then? Surely a friday afternoon in 2159 would be just as acceptable to those voters?

Let's hang on for 140 years and see what can be done.
Because that is what they voted for, right?

Kidchameleon · 01-11-2019 5:44pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

So what's the big deal about October 31st then? Surely a friday afternoon in 2159 would be just as acceptable to those voters?

Let's hang on for 140 years and see what can be done.
Because that is what they voted for, right?

Inform yourself about article 50

Kermit.de.frog · 01-11-2019 5:51pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Inform yourself about article 50

You are only triggering them.

They are full of hopeless ifs and buts because of how desperate their situation is.

If the result was the other way there would be no arguments from them.

It will be great to see a country follow through a vote not in the EU's favour. It's been a long time coming (other referendums were successfully overturned) and the best we can hope for is the EU wakens up to what national populations are going to tolerate in terms infringement on their sovereignty.

If they don't the UK leaving is just the start of the end.

Which is not what I want to see - i'd rather see a looser EU back to an economic bloc and dispense with the political rubbish and the ridiculous parliament.

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2019 6:06pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You are only triggering them.

They are full of hopeless ifs and buts because of how desperate their situation is.

If the result was the other way there would be no arguments from them.

It will be great to see a country follow through a vote not in the EU's favour. It's been a long time coming (other referendums were successfully overturned) and the best we can hope for is the EU wakens up to what national populations are going to tolerate in terms infringement on their sovereignty.

If they don't the UK leaving is just the start of the end.

Which is not what I want to see - i'd rather see a looser EU back to an economic bloc and dispense with the political rubbish and the ridiculous parliament.

'Follow through' you say??

We're leaving even if we wreck our own union to do it.
Meanwhile, we in the EU sit and watch.

Donald Trump · 01-11-2019 6:31pm

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Which is not what I want to see - i'd rather see a looser EU back to an economic bloc and dispense with the political rubbish and the ridiculous parliament.

I reckon you haven't really thought about what you are saying and only heard Nige throw out similar repeatedly and thought it made him sound smart.

I'd be curious as to your thought as to how this economic bloc would run. Would it have rules? Or just be a free-for-all?

If they were to have any rules would they be standardized and agreed upon or purely bilateral so that say France could demand a higher standard of Irish beef but let in German beef without the same conditions (I'm sure Ireland would be happy then)

If you wanted to have a common agreement of some standards, then I'd imagine the best thing might be for each country to send some representatives to a big meeting. Grand. Let's have it in a central location on the continent. Say Brussels in Belgium.

As there are going to be questions and developments/improvements to deals over time, maybe each country might need to have some representatives there permanently. Perhaps they might want to monitor and take strategic decisions to steer the whole thing forward.

Now the question might be whether those representatives should be appointed by someone to represent the country, or whether each country's citizens should decide their own representatives.I'd go with citizens having a vote.

uh-oh........we seems to have ended up where we started......

26000 Elephants · 01-11-2019 6:34pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Inform yourself about article 50

Where is article 50 mentioned in the ballot?

Where is any time frame between advisory non binding referenda and article 50 mentioned?

You start the argument about the specifics of the ballot paper, and then you switch to citing hitherto unmentioned provisions of unspecified EU laws.

I hope you have done your manual handling course, coz you're likely to do yourself an injury with this goalpost shifting.

Kidchameleon · 01-11-2019 6:45pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

You start the argument about the specifics of the ballot paper

I most certainly didn't

26000 Elephants wrote: »

unmentioned provisions of unspecified EU laws.

Wow, you havnt read up on it have you?

Kidchameleon · 01-11-2019 6:47pm

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Where is article 50 mentioned in the ballot?

Its not. I posted the ballot paper a few posts ago, it clearly isn't there. Like any other referendum, the specifics of what is being voted on is not laid out in full in any ballot paper, people inform themselves before voting.

26000 Elephants · 01-11-2019 7:12pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Its not. I posted the ballot paper a few posts ago, it clearly isn't there. Like any other referendum, the specifics of what is being voted on is not laid out in full in any ballot paper, people inform themselves before voting.

You're getting close to understanding, just one more step:

The specifics were NEVER laid out ANYWHERE, so where were people going to "inform" themselves?? Surely you can see the circular nature of your argument. People had no idea of what they were voting for, much less the people egging them on. All they got was a vague notion of leaving the EU, with no plan, detail or timeframe.

01-11-2019 7:20pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I would say they have broken an international agreement ratified by PARLIAMENT in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to give 'effect' to the will of the people of Ireland.

you are misquoting the Good Friday agreement. It clearly states that it will be a binding obligation on both Governments to introduce and support in their respective Parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish;

That is what the act (admittedly, passed by Parliament) states.

The Government is obliged to do that and in doing so, meets its obligations under the GFA. There is no obligation on Parliament to pass the legislation, it is very much against constitutional law for the act to say that. If it did, it would be null and void.

So, now that (for the umpteenth time) I have explained this, please tell me, how you would react if Parliament, after agreeing to hold a referendum decided that although ti was the will of the people, it wasn't the will of parliament and voted down the legislation?

I know you are not going to answer this, because it is uncomfortable for you to do so, so let's put in in terms of Brexit.

Parliament voted in favour of the EU referendum act 2015 (Supported by all partes except the SNP). This included the wording on the paper.

They held the referendum in accordance with the act and then followed it up by passing the European Union (notification of withdrawal) act 2017.

Are you now saying that as parliament can't decide on hat it wants and the referendum was only advisory anyway, they should just cancel it?

Parliament has an obligation to either see this through, or go back to the people. For Parliament to ignore it after passing two acts would be a massive abuse of trust by the legislators.

FrancieBrady · 01-11-2019 7:33pm

Aegir wrote: »

you are misquoting the Good Friday agreement. It clearly states that it will be a binding obligation on both Governments to introduce and support in their respective Parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish;

That is what the act (admittedly, passed by Parliament) states.

The Government is obliged to do that and in doing so, meets its obligations under the GFA. There is no obligation on Parliament to pass the legislation, it is very much against constitutional law for the act to say that. If it did, it would be null and void.

Parliament has ratified the GFA...you tried to claim it hadn't.

Parliament has undertaken to to give effect to the will of the people 'subject to' an agreement between the Irish and British government on the handover terms.

There is no going back, if parliament votes against that agreement then the two governments go again until legislation is found that can pass through the HoC.

So, now that (for the umpteenth time) I have explained this, please tell me, how you would react if Parliament, after agreeing to hold a referendum decided that although ti was the will of the people, it wasn't the will of parliament and voted down the legislation?

I know you are not going to answer this, because it is uncomfortable for you to do so, so let's put in in terms of Brexit.

Parliament voted in favour of the EU referendum act 2015 (Supported by all partes except the SNP). This included the wording on the paper.

They held the referendum in accordance with the act and then followed it up by passing the European Union (notification of withdrawal) act 2017.

Are you now saying that as parliament can't decide on hat it wants and the referendum was only advisory anyway, they should just cancel it?

Parliament has an obligation to either see this through, or go back to the people. For Parliament to ignore it after passing two acts would be a massive abuse of trust by the legislators.

Parliament can cancel/revoke Art 50 without any consultation with the people.

They cannot (as we have clearly seen) cancel or alter or shirk the terms of the GFA without breaking an international agreement lodged with the UN

They can do that at anytime...that is not in dispute by me.

Mike3549 · 01-11-2019 7:34pm

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Inform yourself about article 50

Im not sure you are properly informed about article 50.
The UK triggered Article 50 on 29 March 2017, which means the UK was due to leave the EU at 11:00pm on 29 March 2019.
Since then, the UK has asked for three extensions from the EU.
Who said they cannot ask for 300 more extensions?

declanflynn · 01-11-2019 7:48pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Look up this post in a year cork exile and it will still be true.

It will be true forever, this general election will throw up a hung parliament in which remain parties will be in the majority we will never be rid of them unless the EU boots them out.

02-11-2019 10:46am

If Britain can't leave then no other country will ever be able to leave either. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I suspect the outcome of that will not be good.

Dytalus · 02-11-2019 10:54am

Deleted User wrote: »

If Britain can't leave then no other country will ever be able to leave either. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? I suspect the outcome of that will not be good.

Britain can leave whenever it wants. What's causing the delay is that they want to leave with a deal, and they have the border on the island of Ireland to concern themselves with.

The NI border is fairly unique with regards to history and the issues around it. Other countries who attempt to leave will not face similar problems. If they want a deal when they leave, they'll also have difficulty getting a deal that is as good for them as remaining in the EU is economically. Doesn't mean they can't leave.

26000 Elephants · 02-11-2019 4:13pm

I love how brexiters shout about how they want more control over their own destiny ( #TakeBackControl, anyone?) but have no issue with Trump laying down an ultimatum ('No US trade deal if you back EU deal) to them during his live phone love-in with Farage.....

02-11-2019 6:56pm

An especially good article here by the current editor of the Financial Times, who was a civil servant in the EU in his earlier career, even if his conclusions about the UK's future are quite dark:

Brexit and beyond: how a new strain of English nationalism has been let loose

He deconstructs the "new Singapore" fantasy - as if other EU countries would tolerate it - and also this nonsense demand for free trade but refusal to open British fishing waters up. So many people there hoodwinked by these lies.

But what about the educated and informed English (and the English are the problem)? I'm still wondering why on earth they are doing this to themselves when it's plain as day they will lose far more. Bafflingly irrational.

high_king · 02-11-2019 7:03pm

Britain was a leader in the EU and would have been better off remaining, however any country is entitled to independence and more freedom if that's what they want.

The longer Brexit drags out, and the more fudge and disagreement there is, the less likely it becomes, and the better for Ireland. - Irish people calling for Britain to just get on with it are clueless clowns shooting themselves in the foot.

First Up · 02-11-2019 7:18pm

26000 Elephants wrote:

I love how brexiters shout about how they want more control over their own destiny ( #TakeBackControl, anyone?) but have no issue with Trump laying down an ultimatum ('No US trade deal if you back EU deal) to them during his live phone love-in with Farage.....

They are learning the hard way. Size matters.

02-11-2019 11:00pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Parliament has ratified the GFA...you tried to claim it hadn't.

it has, yes and no, I didn't

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Parliament has undertaken to to give effect to the will of the people 'subject to' an agreement between the Irish and British government on the handover terms.

no, it hasn't. That would be tantamount to a Parliament binding a future Parliament to something, which is unconstitutional.

Your ability to stare facts, written in black and white by your own hand and yet deny their very existence is baffling/amusing/something the most ardent Brexiteers would struggle to achieve.

Odhinn · 02-11-2019 11:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

.................

But what about the educated and informed English (and the English are the problem)? I'm still wondering why on earth they are doing this to themselves when it's plain as day they will lose far more. Bafflingly irrational.

It's all down to having a group boner for the 'days of Empire', a logic free state of mind.

FrancieBrady · 02-11-2019 11:24pm

Aegir wrote: »

it has, yes and no, I didn't

no, it hasn't. That would be tantamount to a Parliament binding a future Parliament to something, which is unconstitutional.

Your ability to stare facts, written in black and white by your own hand and yet deny their very existence is baffling/amusing/something the most ardent Brexiteers would struggle to achieve.

I have already said, Parliament CAN reject if it wishes. What is wrong with you?

Here is the process in bullet points.

1. The Irish people vote to unify.

2. Without any further consultation wit Parliament, the two governments work out the terms/legislation of the handover.

3. The government of GB brings that before parliament for ratification.
Parliament can if it wishes reject that agreement/legislation in the FULL KNOWLEDGE that it is forcing the government to break an international agreement where it agreed to 'give effect' to the wishes of the Irish people.

i.e Parliament can always vote to break the GFA agreement. Haven't you been paying attention?

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-11-2019 10:30am

Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage will not stand in general election

https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/2tGVXx

Nigel Farage will not stand to be an MP in the December general election.

The Brexit Party leader revealed he would not fight for a parliamentary seat, insisting it he would better serve his movement’s aims by “traversing the length and breadth” of the country.

Wanderer78 · 03-11-2019 10:32am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

Faragh not running for election.

Thank God, but we ll still have to listen to him

Igotadose · 03-11-2019 11:01am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage will not stand in general election

https://f7td5.app.goo.gl/2tGVXx

Wow so all he is, is a PR spokesperson. No wonder he seemed so unenthusiastic the other day at his presser. I hope "Led by Donkeys" dogs his every footstep.

BXP are goners imo, without Farage running for a seat. Unfortunately chancers like Farage are always able to get their mugs on TV, without any serious challenge like, "Ever held political office in the UK?" What a sad, scary joke this tool is.

Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

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