Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

If a border poll showed that the majority in Northern Ireland wished to form a united ireland, would you say the same thing?

Parliament has already agreed and signed an international agreement on that. A detailed agreement that was put to the people first.

There was no agreement with anyone (not even among themselves) before they went to the people on Brexit and have ended up in chaos as a result.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Parliament has already agreed and signed an international agreement on that. A detailed agreement that was put to the people first.

There was no agreement with anyone (not even among themselves) before they went to the people on Brexit and have ended up in chaos as a result.

Parliament has done no such thing.

26000 Elephants

Aegir wrote: »

Parliament has done no such thing.

Have a read of the GFA.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

Parliament has done no such thing.

Parliament has agreed an internationally binding agreement (which has trumped any Brexit arrangement they have wanted to make actually) in which is contained the mechanism for a UI if the people vote for it. i.e. Parliament has committed to pass the necessary legislation if a vote succeeds or be in breach of/go rogue on the agreement.

Kidchameleon

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I see you edited your post and the word 'appear' appeared. Okay, can you link to polls that "appear" to show the majority want to leave?

I edited the crap out of that post typos/spelling/rewording etc. Im not trying to hide anything I know well how boards works re. editing posts. Ill link later to polls (on phone at the moment). The polls im refering to show the Tories and Brexit party are in the lead. The remain side know this that is why they turned down a GE THREE times

Kidchameleon

FunLover18 wrote: »

What was on the ballot paper?

I linked to the ballot paper in this very thread, have a look back. But you know well what it said.

Professor Moriarty

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I edited the crap out of that post typos/spelling/rewording etc. Im not trying to hide anything I know well how boards works re. editing posts. Ill link later to polls (on phone at the moment). The polls im refering to show the Tories and Brexit party are in the lead. The remain side know this that is why they turned down a GE THREE times

Support for a party in a GE is different to support for a single issue. You cannot extrapolate one from the other. Also, most polls have the Tory and Brexit Party combined support at less than 50%

FunLover18

Kidchameleon wrote: »

I linked to the ballot paper in this very thread, have a look back. But you know well what it said.

Grand so, then so do you which means I am just wasting my time on someone who refuses to see the truth.

FunLover18

FunLover18 wrote: »

Grand so, then so do you which means I am just wasting my time on someone who refuses to see the truth.

Well here is some truth for everyone

It is the 1st of November and the UK is still in the EU

KC has reneged on his promise, just like a good brexiteer would

marieholmfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Well here is some truth for everyone

It is the 1st of November and the UK is still in the EU

KC has reneged on his promise, just like a good brexiteer would

Look up this post in a year cork exile and it will still be true.

J Mysterio

https://twitter.com/RobW1_/status/1189936983818289157

26000 Elephants

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Support for a party in a GE is different to support for a single issue. You cannot extrapolate one from the other. Also, most polls have the Tory and Brexit Party combined support at less than 50%

This is the real quandary that the people of the UK find themselves dealing with. A general election to solve a referendum question.

The problem is that 50% of the people (at the very least) want to remain. But there is no easy way to translate this into a GE vote. The only way to vote "remain" is to go for the lib dem (who in many case have been parachuted into constituencies.)

A vote for the tories is obviously a leave vote.
A vote for Labour is an only slightly less obvious leave vote.

This has no hope of solving anything, and in all likelihood will drive the divisions deeper.

They're going to have to bite the bullet and go for Referendum 2.0.

26000 Elephants

26000 Elephants wrote: »

This is the real quandary that the people of the UK find themselves dealing with. A general election to solve a referendum question.

The problem is that 50% of the people (at the very least) want to remain. But there is no easy way to translate this into a GE vote. The only way to vote "remain" is to go for the lib dem (who in many case have been parachuted into constituencies.)

A vote for the tories is obviously a leave vote.
A vote for Labour is an only slightly less obvious leave vote.

This has no hope of solving anything, and in all likelihood will drive the divisions deeper.

They're going to have to bite the bullet and go for Referendum 2.0.

The Brexiteers are not going to support that ever, because with all that has come out more people are much better informed (some are wilfully blind/ignorant and still believe the big red bus)

FrancieBrady

26000 Elephants wrote: »

They're going to have to bite the bullet and go for Referendum 2.0.

For that to happen they require a leader and a governing party with some brains.

How long can the concept of the 'UK' hold up amid this chaos?

26000 Elephants

FrancieBrady wrote: »

For that to happen they require a leader and a governing party with some brains.

How long can the concept of the 'UK' hold up amid this chaos?

Its catch 22. Those hilarious "Brussels 2159, the annual brexit extension" memes dont look so funny now.....

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Parliament has agreed an internationally binding agreement (which has trumped any Brexit arrangement they have wanted to make actually) in which is contained the mechanism for a UI if the people vote for it. i.e. Parliament has committed to pass the necessary legislation if a vote succeeds or be in breach of/go rogue on the agreement.

no, it hasn't. you clearly have not read the Good Friday Agreement.

Parliament has not agreed to anything, the government has agreed to introduce and support legislation in Parliament. That is clear to anyone who has bothered to take the time to actually read the document.

So, Francis, Simple question for you.

If the people of Northern Ireland voted to form a united Ireland and Parliament refused (as it perfectly within their right) to pass the legislation to allow this to happen, would you simply shrug and say "Oh well, it may have been the will of the people, but it wasn't the will of Parliament"?

26000 Elephants

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Have a read of the GFA.

I suggest you do and show me where Parliament has agreed to anything.

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

no, it hasn't. you clearly have not read the Good Friday Agreement.

Parliament has not agreed to anything, the government has agreed to introduce and support legislation in Parliament. That is clear to anyone who has bothered to take the time to actually read the document.

So, Francis, Simple question for you.

If the people of Northern Ireland voted to form a united Ireland and Parliament refused (as it perfectly within their right) to pass the legislation to allow this to happen, would you simply shrug and say "Oh well, it may have been the will of the people, but it wasn't the will of Parliament"?

Aegir...you might want to look up the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which contains this...ratified and agreed by Parliament:

‘Northern Ireland in its entirety remains part of the United Kingdom and shall not cease to be so without the consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll … But if the wish expressed by a majority in such a poll is that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland, the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland.’

Failure to 'give effect' to that 'wish' will be a breaking of the Agreement. Which they can of course do.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Aegir...you might want to look up the Northern Ireland Act 1998 which contains this...ratified and agreed by Parliament:


Failure to 'give effect' to that 'wish' will be a breaking of the Agreement. Which they can of course do.

the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland.’

So Parliament has not agreed to do anything. The Secretary of State (on behalf of the Government" has agreed, but Parliament has not.

So, once again, Francis, Simple question for you.

If the people of Northern Ireland voted to form a united Ireland and Parliament refused (as it perfectly within their right) to pass the legislation to allow this to happen, would you simply shrug and say "Oh well, it may have been the will of the people, but it wasn't the will of Parliament"?

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

the Secretary of State shall lay before Parliament such proposals to give effect to that wish as may be agreed between Her Majesty’s Government in the United Kingdom and the Government of Ireland.’

So Parliament has not agreed to do anything. The Secretary of State (on behalf of the Government" has agreed, but Parliament has not.

So, once again, Francis, Simple question for you.

If the people of Northern Ireland voted to form a united Ireland and Parliament refused (as it perfectly within their right) to pass the legislation to allow this to happen, would you simply shrug and say "Oh well, it may have been the will of the people, but it wasn't the will of Parliament"?

No, I would say Parliament has broken an international agreement where it agreed to 'give effect' to the wishes of the people.
Parliament may very well refuse to ratify an agreement between the Irish and British government but that would only mean that the British and Irish Government would sit down again to alter the agreed handover terms.

Parliament has in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (which you claimed didn't exist) agreed to give effect to the wishes of the people of Ireland.

There was no such act or ratification before the 2016 referendum.

Basically it was a promise of Cameron's to respect the referendum result. Nothing else.

FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, I would say Parliament has broken an international agreement where it agreed to 'give effect' to the wishes of the people.
Parliament may very well refuse to ratify an agreement between the Irish and British government but that would only mean that the British and Irish Government would sit down again to alter the agreed handover terms.

Parliament has in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 (which you claimed didn't exist) agreed to give effect to the wishes of the people of Ireland.

There was no such act or ratification before the 2016 referendum.

Basically it was a promise of Cameron's to respect the referendum result. Nothing else.

you seriously need to read up on the difference between Government and Parliament.

The "Internationally binding agreement" (whatever the **** that means) is between the British and Irish Governments. The obligation on both Governments is to do the following:

(iv) affirm that, if in the future, the people of the island of Ireland exercise their right of self determination on the basis set out in sections (i) and (ii) above to bring about a united Ireland, it will be a binding obligation on both Governments to introduce and support in their respective Parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish;

Providing the Governments do that, then no one has breached the GFA.

Parliament is not obliged to do anything. It agreed to the above wording in the 1998 act and agreed to repeal the 1920 act. That is all.

So, once again

If the people of Northern Ireland voted to form a united Ireland and Parliament refused (as it perfectly within their right) to pass the legislation to allow this to happen, would you simply shrug and say "Oh well, it may have been the will of the people, but it wasn't the will of Parliament"?

FrancieBrady

Aegir wrote: »

you seriously need to read up on the difference between Government and Parliament.

The "Internationally binding agreement" (whatever the **** that means) is between the British and Irish Governments. The obligation on both Governments is to do the following:



Providing the Governments do that, then no one has breached the GFA.

Parliament is not obliged to do anything. It agreed to the above wording in the 1998 act and agreed to repeal the 1920 act. That is all.

Do you know what an Act of Parliament is and represents? This is fairly basic stuff now.

So, once again

If the people of Northern Ireland voted to form a united Ireland and Parliament refused (as it perfectly within their right) to pass the legislation to allow this to happen, would you simply shrug and say "Oh well, it may have been the will of the people, but it wasn't the will of Parliament"?

No, I would say they have broken an international agreement ratified by PARLIAMENT in the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to give 'effect' to the will of the people of Ireland.

In the case of Brexit...David Cameron told a porky/broke his word. Parliament never undertook to give 'effect' to anything and are perfectly within their rights to refuse deal after deal if it suits them.

FrancieBrady

I have just realised that Unionism may be pinning their hopes on the possibility that Parliament may deny a UI in the event of a Border Poll passing even though all through the madness and chaos of Brexit they have refused to break the terms of the GFA.

Bless them in their innocence if they think parliament is going to break the agreement after a successful poll.

Kidchameleon

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Well here is some truth for everyone

It is the 1st of November and the UK is still in the EU

KC has reneged on his promise, just like a good brexiteer would

You obviously havnt read the thread. I have already conceded I was wrong

ancapailldorcha

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I have just realised that Unionism may be pinning their hopes on the possibility that Parliament may deny a UI in the event of a Border Poll passing even though all through the madness and chaos of Brexit they have refused to break the terms of the GFA.

Bless them in their innocence if they think parliament is going to break the agreement after a successful poll.

This Unionist is pinning his hopes on this whole disaster capitalist fiasco being cancelled.

Kidchameleon

Polls* suggest that the British will vote pro Brexit:


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/uk-election-polls-boris-johnson-soars-into-17point-opinion-poll-lead-ahead-of-jeremy-corbyn-a4275276.html


https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/


https://ukpollingreport.co.uk/


*yeah I know they are only polls

ancapailldorcha

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Polls* suggest that the British will vote pro Brexit:


https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/uk-election-polls-boris-johnson-soars-into-17point-opinion-poll-lead-ahead-of-jeremy-corbyn-a4275276.html


https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/


https://ukpollingreport.co.uk/


*yeah I know they are only polls

May blew a bigger lead. Plenty of time for bungling Boris to do the same.

Kidchameleon

I fail to see what is so confusing about this... Seems pretty straight forward to me? They should be gone by now, the people made a choice.

Kidchameleon

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

May blew a bigger lead. Plenty of time for bungling Boris to do the same.

Boris seems to want Brexit, everyone knew May didn't. We shall see.

ohnonotgmail

Can you point out where it says "no deal" on that ballot paper? Or where it specifies the leaving date?