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Water charges for excessive usage

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    #1022
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Apart from the constitution protecting your right to protest it is also human right

    I wouldn't waste time on this individual.


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    #1023
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    I wouldn't waste time on this individual.

    Ah, lads. Don’t we have the constitutional rights to hold different opinions and debate them?


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    #1024
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Ah, lads. Don’t we have the constitutional rights to hold different opinions and debate them?

    Your own opinions yes, but your own made up facts no. ;-)


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    #1025
    Benedict
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Benedict


    No right-thinking person would defend violence but many decent people were really annoyed about introduction of water charges and took to the streets because they genuinely felt it was unfair and now, hearing that a family with a swimming pool won't pay a cent if they have no meter will only increase tension tenfold.

    IW really need to come clean with the users and admit that the current plan is untenable. The Irish people are very understanding but they don't like being taken for fools and that's what's happening.

    They said that they'd be sending out warnings to over-users in the third quarter of 2019. So how many warnings have gone out? If none have been posted (which is probably the case) does that mean nobody's over-using? Not one home in Ireland is using even one litre too much?

    Every time they make a statement which is untrue - or issue a warning they don't follow up on - their credibility falls even further.


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    #1026
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,340 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Apart from the constitution protecting your right to protest it is also human right

    That isn't as clear-cut as you state. From your own post:

    "There are other limitations on your freedom of assembly. You cannot meet on private property without the consent of the owner - that is trespass. Parades and processions are not illegal but it is a public nuisance to obstruct a highway. You may not hold a procession or meeting within half a mile of the Houses of the Oireachtas..."

    Most protests I have seen have breached at least one of those restrictions. Certainly, the water charges protest in Tallaght was illegal, and the most recent climate protests that closed Merrion Square were also illegal, if your information is correct.


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    #1027
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    blanch152 wrote:
    Most protests I have seen have breached at least one of those restrictions. Certainly, the water charges protest in Tallaght was illegal, and the most recent climate protests that closed Merrion Square were also illegal, if your information is correct.


    I don't agree with what happened in Tallaght but I'm not sure how anyone can say that it was illegal. The DDP charged 10 people & had half of these in court and had to withdraw the charges because they had no case. They knew that the judge couldn't find them guilty.

    I'm not saying that it was legal but the DPP couldn't prove that it was illegal


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    #1028
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,340 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I don't agree with what happened in Tallaght but I'm not sure how anyone can say that it was illegal. The DDP charged 10 people & had half of these in court and had to withdraw the charges because they had no case. They knew that the judge couldn't find them guilty.

    I'm not saying that it was legal but the DPP couldn't prove that it was illegal


    They were charged with false imprisonment, which is a different charge.

    What isn't clear from the information provided is whether such a protest is simply illegal or whether it is a crime to organise or participate in such a protest.


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    #1029
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I don't agree with what happened in Tallaght but I'm not sure how anyone can say that it was illegal. The DDP charged 10 people & had half of these in court and had to withdraw the charges because they had no case. They knew that the judge couldn't find them guilty.


    The judge couldn't find them guilty as the evidence from several Garda was inconsistent and in some instances without credibility. The judge with remarkable restraint held back from calling several of the Garda that took to the stand liars.


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    #1030
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,169 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    I don't agree with what happened in Tallaght but I'm not sure how anyone can say that it was illegal. The DDP charged 10 people & had half of these in court and had to withdraw the charges because they had no case. They knew that the judge couldn't find them guilty.


    The judge couldn't find them guilty as the evidence from several Garda was inconsistent and in some instances without credibility. The judge with remarkable restraint held back from calling several of the Garda that took to the stand liars.

    Maybe the reason was they weren’t liars.?

    Or couldn't be proven as liars?

    A lot of folk on here seem to think that it’s quite easy for the Guards to manage what was a vicious threatening mob with limited numbers, with abuse and other raining down on them, with the safety of people,themselves, and all involved, their responsibility.

    To then stand up in court under forensic investigation by lawyers being paid under free legal aid and recount chapter and verse as to what happened is not a bit easy.

    Do I recall correctly that those charged declined to give evidence?

    A lot of stuff happened there, and such was the feeling at the time that no jury would convict these people.

    There was tweeting from the court room, it is alleged.

    Very dark chapter in our recent history folks.


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    #1031
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,958 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    blanch152 wrote:
    They were charged with false imprisonment, which is a different charge.

    blanch152 wrote:
    What isn't clear from the information provided is whether such a protest is simply illegal or whether it is a crime to organise or participate in such a protest.


    If they could have charged them with J walking they would have. The fact that they weren't charged definitely suggests that they couldn't be charged


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    #1032
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »

    Maybe the reason was they weren’t liars.?

    Or couldn't be proven as liars?

    A lot of folk on here seem to think that it’s quite easy for the Guards to manage what was a vicious threatening mob with limited numbers, with abuse and other raining down on them, with the safety of people,themselves, and all involved, their responsibility.

    To then stand up in court under forensic investigation by lawyers being paid under free legal aid and recount chapter and verse as to what happened is not a bit easy.

    Do I recall correctly that those charged declined to give evidence?

    A lot of stuff happened there, and such was the feeling at the time that no jury would convict these people.

    There was tweeting from the court room, it is alleged.

    Very dark chapter in our recent history folks.

    Garda willing to lie under oath, very dark indeed. Totally agree


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    #1033
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    To then stand up in court under forensic investigation by lawyers being paid under free legal aid and recount chapter and verse as to what happened is not a bit easy.

    Do you believe the guards attended court based only on what they could recall from memory?



    It's not like they had access to CCTV, and each other to get their stories straight.


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    #1034
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,340 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    If they could have charged them with J walking they would have. The fact that they weren't charged definitely suggests that they couldn't be charged

    Again, I have pointed this out several times before.

    Not everything illegal is a crime.

    For example, slander and libel are illegal, but they are not crimes.


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    #1035
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,169 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Brendan Bendar wrote: »

    Garda willing to lie under oath, very dark indeed. Totally agree

    Were there Gardai charged with that offense, can’t seem to remember any?


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    #1036
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »

    Were there Gardai charged with that offense, can’t seem to remember any?

    Ah Brendan you know as well as I do they weren't but even the dogs in the street know some of them on the stand lied.
    You know the judge made it clear he didn't accept some of what the Garda claimed, notwithstanding their evidence was in conflict with video evidence. The charges the defendants were brought to court on carried a life sentence would you be happy to send people to prison for circa 25 years on that type of testimony?


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    #1037
    charlie14
    Registered Users Posts: 14,925 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Brendan Bendar wrote: »
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »

    Maybe the reason was they weren’t liars.?

    Or couldn't be proven as liars?

    A lot of folk on here seem to think that it’s quite easy for the Guards to manage what was a vicious threatening mob with limited numbers, with abuse and other raining down on them, with the safety of people,themselves, and all involved, their responsibility.

    To then stand up in court under forensic investigation by lawyers being paid under free legal aid and recount chapter and verse as to what happened is not a bit easy.

    Do I recall correctly that those charged declined to give evidence?

    A lot of stuff happened there, and such was the feeling at the time that no jury would convict these people.

    There was tweeting from the court room, it is alleged.

    Very dark chapter in our recent history folks.


    A dark chapters in our history when it came to people coming to power on the back of bare faced lies.

    Labour running on a manifesto of no mater metering and once they had their feet under the cabinet table a quick about turn. To quote Pat Rabbitte "Isn`t that what you do during an election"

    We also had FG promise of a world class service before metering.

    Both parties appeared to think no jury would convict them either. General election 2016 proved them wrong


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    #1038
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,169 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    charlie14 wrote: »
    Brendan Bendar wrote: »


    A dark chapters in our history when it came to people coming to power on the back of bare faced lies.

    Labour running on a manifesto of no mater metering and once they had their feet under the cabinet table a quick about turn. To quote Pat Rabbitte "Isn`t that what you do during an election"

    We also had FG promise of a world class service before metering.

    Both parties appeared to think no jury would convict them either. General election 2016 proved them wrong

    The Plummer won’t be too happy with that offering,buddy.

    Best start swinging the delete stick.


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    #1039
    Benedict
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Benedict


    charlie14 wrote: »
    Brendan Bendar wrote: »


    A dark chapters in our history when it came to people coming to power on the back of bare faced lies.

    Labour running on a manifesto of no mater metering and once they had their feet under the cabinet table a quick about turn. To quote Pat Rabbitte "Isn`t that what you do during an election"

    We also had FG promise of a world class service before metering.

    Both parties appeared to think no jury would convict them either. General election 2016 proved them wrong


    It was the late FF Minister Brian Lenehan who started the ball rolling with water charges in 2009. In fairness to him, he didn't foresee the almighty mess which would be made by those who came after him.


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    #1040
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    I see someone's broken the quote function again. :D


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    #1041
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Benedict wrote: »


    It was the late FF Minister Brian Lenehan who started the ball rolling with water charges in 2009. In fairness to him, he didn't foresee the almighty mess which would be made by those who came after him.

    Sarcasm? I'd imagine he didn't give two f***s. He would have blamed Lehmans or Ballygowan or something.


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    #1042
    Benedict
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Benedict


    A quote from today's Journal.ie. Phil Hogan is talking to Ivan Yates and said of IW (copied & pasted from Journal.ie)

    "It’s still there and it’s doing a good job.”

    Perhaps a better job would be to shred the current plan (before it shreds them), admit it's a disaster and begin again.

    The Irish public are very forgiving if you're honest with them.


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    #1043
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Benedict wrote: »
    A quote from today's Journal.ie. Phil Hogan is talking to Ivan Yates and said of IW (copied & pasted from Journal.ie)

    "It’s still there and it’s doing a good job.”

    Perhaps a better job would be to shred the current plan (before it shreds them), admit it's a disaster and begin again.

    The Irish public are very forgiving if you're honest with them.

    so if 'Water Ireland' appeared in a few months you'd be on board?


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    #1044
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Benedict wrote: »
    A quote from today's Journal.ie. Phil Hogan is talking to Ivan Yates and said of IW (copied & pasted from Journal.ie)

    "It’s still there and it’s doing a good job.”

    Perhaps a better job would be to shred the current plan (before it shreds them), admit it's a disaster and begin again.

    The Irish public are very forgiving if you're honest with them.

    Any chance you’d provide a link to whatever you copy and paste?


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    #1045
    Brendan Bendar
    Registered Users Posts: 19,169 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    Benedict wrote: »
    A quote from today's Journal.ie. Phil Hogan is talking to Ivan Yates and said of IW (copied & pasted from Journal.ie)

    "It’s still there and it’s doing a good job.”

    Perhaps a better job would be to shred the current plan (before it shreds them), admit it's a disaster and begin again.

    The Irish public are very forgiving if you're honest with them.

    Hogan has form in making poor decisions and walking away from the push back.

    Wouldn’t give the lad too much credence.


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    #1046
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Dunno if this is what they're referring to with the journal, but they had this article this morning, which I found very interesting, Irish Water loved to throw our money about like confetti it has to be said.

    Mad when you think FG/Lab kept telling us we were on our knees with the countries finances, yet there was money a plenty for their pipe dream.

    The five most memorable moments from the disastrous campaign to introduce household water charges


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    #1047
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    Dunno if this is what they're referring to with the journal, but they had this article this morning, which I found very interesting, Irish Water loved to throw our money about like confetti it has to be said.

    Mad when you think FG/Lab kept telling us we were on our knees with the countries finances, yet there was money a plenty for their pipe dream.

    The five most memorable moments from the disastrous campaign to introduce household water charges

    There’s nothing in that article like Benedict copied and pasted.


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    #1048
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There’s nothing in that article like Benedict copied and pasted.

    No I think Benedict might have been reading an article that's a few years old to be fair.

    However there was an article in the journal detailing the disastrous attempt to introduce water charges by the previous govt.


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    #1049
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    No I think Benedict might have been reading an article that's a few years old to be fair.

    However there was an article in the journal detailing the disastrous attempt to introduce water charges by the previous govt.

    There was, yes. However, Benedict “copies and pastes” articles without posting a link to the actual article.


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    #1050
    Benedict
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭Benedict


    I could respond to M84's comments - but she first needs to address the issue of how IW can know if a house without a meter is using excessive amounts and the extent of that usage so that an appropriate fine can be imposed.

    This challenge is still live and needs to be addressed.

    She appears to be the only contributor who insists that this is possible and we would all love to hear evidence - or an admission that she is withdrawing the claim.


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    #1051
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Benedict wrote: »

    She appears to be the only contributor who insists that this is possible and we would all love to hear evidence - or an admission that she is withdrawing the claim.

    Let it go lad . You've asked several times you ain't going to get a coherent answer. MA has made lots of claims about IW and has been wrong more often than she has been right. ;-)


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