ESB eCars pricing introduction

Black_Knight · 23-10-2019 08:59AM

adunis wrote: »

I'm still holding out a little hope for an overstay fee.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdEQmpVIE4A

galwaytt · 23-10-2019 09:20AM

postsnthing wrote: »

Really expensive, more than France and other eu countries not much of an incentive over Diesel pricing especially when you consider the extortionate car and time to charge pricing making EVs unsuitable for long trips. Very disappointing

...this was always going to happen, and we're only at the first step on the pricing ratchet. The decline in revenue from excise duties on fuel has to be replaced.

And, in the EV 'refueler' scenario you have less choice than ICE when it comes to refuelling (which have a plethora of suppliers) which doesn't help. Captive market and all that...

ELM327 · 23-10-2019 09:22AM

galwaytt wrote: »

...this was always going to happen, and we're only at the first step on the pricing ratchet. The decline in revenue from excise duties on fuel has to be replaced.

And, in the EV 'refueler' scenario you have less choice than ICE when it comes to refuelling (which have a plethora of suppliers) which doesn't help. Captive market and all that...

Once you have over 200-250km of range you can choose Ionity, EasyGo, Tesla (if applicable) or ecars.

I would use the ecars destination chargers a lot more than the "fast" chargers.

ELM327 · 23-10-2019 09:26AM

Seems like you can connect your existing card to your account
"If a customer would like to use the ESB charge point access card on the fast charger network they must insert their access card number when signing up."

Mickeroo · 23-10-2019 09:28AM

They just sent out an e-mail with a bit more info:

As part of an overall €20m investment programme to support Ireland’s growing demand for electric vehicles, ESB ecars today announces the introduction of pricing on a phased basis for the public electric vehicle charging network in Ireland.

Pricing will be introduced first for existing fast (43 - 50kW) chargers in Ireland from 18th November followed by the introduction of pricing for high power chargers (150kW) once the first ones are installed.

ESB is currently upgrading the standard AC (22kW) network, once this work is completed pricing will then be introduced on these, this is expected to be in 2020.

Why is pricing being introduced when the ESB chargers have been free to use?
It has been free to use the public charging network in Ireland since ESB ecars was set up in 2010. Introducing pricing is required to continue to invest in, upgrade and expand the public network to support the growing demand of EV drivers and to ensure reliability for customers.

What are the price plan options?
There are two price plans: Pay As You Go (PAYG) or Membership, payable by most credit or debit cards.

PAYG is 33c/kWh with various options such as prepay, auto top up or pay via an anonymous one time credit/debit card payment.

Membership is recommended for people who use the network frequently. It is 29c/kWh with a €5 monthly subscription.

An Introductory Offer is available if you sign up before 30th November which offers Membership per kWh rates with no monthly subscription for 12 months.

How to sign up?

Drivers can sign up from Tuesday 29th October via www.esb.ie/ecars

As part of the upgrade a new ecar connect app will be available from next week.

The ecar connect app will be free to download from the Apple App store and Google Play store from next week. New functionality allows the ability to swipe to start or stop a charge. It shows the real-time availability of the charge point network on an integrated interactive map, you can track your usage, view your charge history and manage your account. The updated ecar connect app will also work on the ecarNI network in Northern Ireland.

Can I still use my ESB charge point access card?

Customers who already have an ESB charge point access card can continue to use their card on the standard AC chargers. If a customer would like to use the ESB charge point access card on the fast charger network they must insert their access card number when signing up. However, if the number is illegible, they will need to get a new charge point access card to allow them to charge on the fast charging network. This can be ordered via the sign up process. Alternatively customers can use the ecar connect app for Pay As You Go usage on the fast charger network.

What if I just use the standard AC network, do I still need to sign up?

You can continue to use the standard AC chargers (22kW) as normal after pricing is introduced. However, we recommend that customers should update the ecar connect app and sign up in case they need to use a fast charger in the future.

For more information and to sign up please visit www.esb.ie/ecars from Tuesday 29th October.

celtic_oz · 23-10-2019 09:35AM

PAYG is 33c/kWh with various options such as prepay, auto top up or pay via an anonymous one time credit/debit card payment.

Membership is recommended for people who use the network frequently. It is 29c/kWh with a €5 monthly subscription.

how does this compare with UK / Europe ?

Black_Knight · 23-10-2019 09:35AM

So... Sign up to the free membership with reduced rates for the first 12 months. Get 29c per kWh rate.

Patser · 23-10-2019 09:36AM

I very rarely use the public system, and even more rarely would I be in absolute desperate need for one, so paying €60 a year subscription fee rules me out of registering.

Going by PhilG's estimate above that an 94ah i3 would cost about 6.70 for 70% charge - that'd be 6.70 for about 100km range give or take weather. That would not be much cheaper per km than diesel. That does seem a bit pricey and a disincentive.

Home charging though rules over all.

Black_Knight · 23-10-2019 09:40AM

Patser wrote: »

Home charging though rules over all.

Right there is your incentive over diesel! Most your charging should be at home.

Sucks for renters or apartment dwellers though.

NIMAN · 23-10-2019 09:41AM

This will help EV sales.

unkel · 23-10-2019 09:43AM

Great stuff. Finally the old and tired network of ESB fast chargers will become a bit less congested. Missed opportunity to not get very expensive overstay penalties for people fast charging for more than 30 minutes, or just a hefty per minute charge on top of the kWh charge

That lazy journo didn't do their homework though:

"It will cost electric car drivers more than three times as much to use these public chargers than to charge up using cheap night-time electricity at home."

More than 4 times. Cheapest night rate is about 8c/kWh including VAT and ESB will charge 33c/kWh

drunkmonkey · 23-10-2019 09:44AM

Why do you all refer to bits of charging rather than say it's €20 to from 0-100%, I never half fill my car, I think that's the way most people would compare prices, it's confusing as you can't like for like easily with an ice. I know 0-650km is €70 but what's 0-650km in an EV going on some of the figures above about €45?

ELM327 · 23-10-2019 09:49AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why do you all refer to bits of charging rather than say it's €20 to from 0-100%, I never half fill my car, I think that's the way most people would compare prices, it's confusing as you can't like for like easily with an ice. I know 0-650km is €70 but what's 0-650km in an EV going on some of the figures above about €45?

Too many variables,
If it takes 30 mins 10-80% and 1 hour+ 80-100, people don't go to 100.

Mickeroo · 23-10-2019 09:51AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why do you all refer to bits of charging rather than say it's €20 to from 0-100%, I never half fill my car, I think that's the way most people would compare prices, it's confusing as you can't like for like easily with an ice. I know 0-650km is €70 but what's 0-650km in an EV going on some of the figures above about €45?

Charging curve, if you need to get somewhere quick it makes no sense to charge past 80% in terms of time it will take. The charging speed will throttle for the last 20% or so on most cars so it mgiht make more sense to just get back on the road and top up again in another however many kms.

ELM327 · 23-10-2019 09:54AM

Black_Knight wrote: »

Right there is your incentive over diesel! Most your charging should be at home.

Sucks for renters or apartment dwellers though.

As an apartment owner/dweller and renter before that , I am in favour of this.

JPA · 23-10-2019 09:55AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why do you all refer to bits of charging rather than say it's €20 to from 0-100%, I never half fill my car, I think that's the way most people would compare prices, it's confusing as you can't like for like easily with an ice. I know 0-650km is €70 but what's 0-650km in an EV going on some of the figures above about €45?

If you needed 50% to get home where you can then charge for 1/4 the price you would.

If you could do the same with petrol or diesel people would as well.

unkel · 23-10-2019 09:56AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why do you all refer to bits of charging rather than say it's €20 to from 0-100%, I never half fill my car, I think that's the way most people would compare prices, it's confusing as you can't like for like easily with an ice. I know 0-650km is €70 but what's 0-650km in an EV going on some of the figures above about €45?

It's confusing to talk about the cost of filling up your ICE car with petrol / diesel too. Depends on how often you fill up, size of your tank, what your consumption is, the price of the fuel, etc. That's why we should compare unit prices. Like the price of a liter of petrol / diesel and the price of a kWh of electricity

Reminds me of a discussion I once had in work with a group of colleagues. We were all complaining that the price of petrol had gone up quite a bit in the last few months. Then one lady said the price had not gone up at all. She always paid £20 to fill her car up and had done so for years :pac:

Black_Knight · 23-10-2019 09:56AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why do you all refer to bits of charging rather than say it's €20 to from 0-100%, I never half fill my car, I think that's the way most people would compare prices, it's confusing as you can't like for like easily with an ice. I know 0-650km is €70 but what's 0-650km in an EV going on some of the figures above about €45?

Would you fill your car to full if you had a supply of diesel at home for 1/4 the cost?

Nearly empty in an electric car is 10% so it's unlikely ev drivers would arrive with less than that, and as mentioned, 80%+ takes longer to charge.
10% in ICE is maybe 65km. 65km in electric could be 30% battery.

drunkmonkey · 23-10-2019 09:56AM

ELM327 wrote: »

Too many variables,
If it takes 30 mins 10-80% and 1 hour+ 80-100, people don't go to 100.

I hear you but the thread is about cost not time. It's confusing if you don't have an EV.

Black_Knight · 23-10-2019 09:57AM

ELM327 wrote: »

As an apartment owner/dweller and renter before that , I am in favour of this.

The pricing sucks for apartment dwellers (who don't have a home charger)

irishgrover · 23-10-2019 09:57AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Why do you all refer to bits of charging rather than say it's €20 to from 0-100%, I never half fill my car, I think that's the way most people would compare prices, it's confusing as you can't like for like easily with an ice. I know 0-650km is €70 but what's 0-650km in an EV going on some of the figures above about €45?

refering to "bits of charging" is because
a.) rarely do you arive at a station with 0 fuel left
b.) many cars will not let you charge to 100% and even if you could most people (with somewhere to go) wont charge to 100% becuase rate of charge decreases significantly after 80% or 90%

So the most common use case tends to be between 20% and 80%

Remember for the vast majority of users the vast majority of charging will be done at home anyway

Varik · 23-10-2019 10:00AM

Starting to charge is a big change, the price might by itself might reduce overstay and they always add an extra charge later.

charlieIRL · 23-10-2019 10:00AM

I wonder will the hogging of the slower "free" chargers get worse now as more and more try avoid paying as long as they can?

Black_Knight · 23-10-2019 10:01AM

unkel wrote: »

It's confusing to talk about the cost of filling up your ICE car with petrol / diesel too. Depends on how often you fill up, size of your tank, what your consumption is, the price of the fuel, etc. That's why we should compare unit prices. Like the price of a liter of petrol / diesel and the price of a kWh of electricity

Price per kilometre is a nice rough guide. Sure there's efficiency, but as a rough guide I can say my ioniq would cost about 4.50 on ESB chargers to go 100km. My old diesel would of been around 10 euro for 100km.

unkel · 23-10-2019 10:02AM

Black_Knight wrote: »

The pricing sucks for apartment dwellers (who don't have a home charger)

Not really. Still far cheaper than petrol / diesel. And now at least they have more of a chance to have access to an ESB charger

Anyway, how many of the 10k or so pure EVs in this country are owned by apartment dwellers who don't have work access to charging either? I suspect only a few. Not that this isn't important going forward of course. We need far more fast chargers. And not just the single vehicle charging stations like the ESB has :rolleyes:

In countries like Norway or the Netherlands, you never have to worry about charging and most people don't have home charging. You can fast charge almost everywhere - just like you can fill up with petrol here in Ireland.

unkel · 23-10-2019 10:03AM

Black_Knight wrote: »

Price per kilometre is a nice rough guide.

Indeed. I'll give you a rough guide so:

petrol car 15c/km
diesel car 10c/km
EV charged at home at night rate 1c/km
EV charged on paid ESB chargers 4c/km

Black_Knight · 23-10-2019 10:08AM

charlieIRL wrote: »

I wonder will the hogging of the slower "free" chargers get worse now as more and more try avoid paying as long as they can?

I bumped into a guy (idiot) in Athlone at the weekend. I had just started charging at the ESB charger. He rocked up in his leaf and I seen him taking out the DC charger. I told him only 1 can charge at a time. He gestured to say he understood.
I came back out a few seconds later (spidey sense) and sure enough he had knocked me off charging and add I explained he was having a good auld laugh about it but not suggesting he would stop charging. His session was on the screen so I stopped his charge (think what you want, I was in no humour for this guys antics). He started to understand, and when I said I'll only be 15 minutes he said he'd move to the slower charger (Athlone has a slow charger beside the fast one) as he was going shopping and would be back in a few hours. FFS, what a clown! He is the reason an overstay fee is needed!

Black_Knight · 23-10-2019 10:10AM

unkel wrote: »

Not really. Still far cheaper than petrol / diesel. And now at least they have more of a chance to have access to an ESB charger

Anyway, how many of the 10k or so pure EVs in this country are owned by apartment dwellers who don't have work access to charging either? I suspect only a few. Not that this isn't important going forward of course. We need far more fast chargers. And not just the single vehicle charging stations like the ESB has :rolleyes:

In countries like Norway or the Netherlands, you never have to worry about charging and most people don't have home charging. You can fast charge almost everywhere - just like you can fill up with petrol here in Ireland.

Guy at work is in this scenario. Apartment living, no charger at work, short commute. He's interested in an EV, but not sure about living with one without a charger... and the additional cost of an EV is repaid slower if you're relying solely on the public chargers.

Zenith74 · 23-10-2019 10:14AM

Black_Knight wrote: »

Guy at work is in this scenario. Apartment living, no charger at work, short commute. He's interested in an EV, but not sure about living with one without a charger... and the additional cost of an EV is repaid slower if you're relying solely on the public chargers.

Black_Knight wrote: »

The pricing sucks for apartment dwellers (who don't have a home charger)

Apartment dwellers using fast chargers isn't really a sustainable solution if we're to switch all cars to EVs in the coming years, so probably best to pull that plaster sooner rather than later. As things are the over-stretched fast charging network is negatively affecting the uptake of EVs by all types of users, not just apartment dwellers, so this move at least fixes this issue.

Work, on-street and apartment carpark charging is the long-term solution for apartment dwellers. If one of these isn't available to an apartment dweller then an EV probably isn't right for them just yet, same as they're not suitable for people driving 600km per day, people who want a people carrier for €15k etc etc.
But it's a problem that will get solved eventually.

Somebody made a good point to me on here the other day; that we'll never get private sector companies running charging networks if there's a state sponsored competitor offering free or cheap charging. This pricing is quite a bit cheaper than Ecotricity in the UK (€0.30 vs €0.45 per kWh) so really not that bad imho.

knipex · 23-10-2019 10:17AM

Black_Knight wrote: »

Price per kilometre is a nice rough guide. Sure there's efficiency, but as a rough guide I can say my ioniq would cost about 4.50 on ESB chargers to go 100km. My old diesel would of been around 10 euro for 100km.

Not to drag this off topic but what car were you driving to get 100Km for €10 ?
At todays prices that 7.57 ltrs to 100km.

Assuming 5.4ltrs per 100Km (which isnt exceptional for a diesel) your looking at around €7.15

Still more expensive that Electric but not over twice the price..

ESB eCars pricing introduction

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