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Where are the electric cars for the masses?

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Comments

  • #402
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    KCross wrote: »
    FYP :D

    PHEVs aren't worth as much. BMW thinks it can get away with a major push into mild electrification and PHEV. VW group are pushing further to full electrification. It's all a numbers game for accountant's at the end of the day.


  • #403
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,807 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    .

    at least with ICE cars you have more of a choice in a car howroom - you pick your car you like and if you want one with a higher capacity petrol engine say, you can, but you have to pay more for it

    Yeah right.

    Hello Mr Ford dealer, I'd like a petrol Mondeo.

    Hello Mr Nissan dealer, I'd like a GT-R. Oh, you only sell Micras or Kashquais?


  • #404
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    ... and yet i heard on the radio the other day that the EU want to push for Hydrogen powered cars by 2030 or 2040 I think I heard with just water coming out of the 'exhaust' is even before everyone has changed over to BEV's

    it could be that with all the infrastructure put in place for the EV masses that it could in the end become out of date pretty quickly


  • #405
    KCross
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,136 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    liamog wrote: »
    PHEVs aren't worth as much.

    They get a super credit at the same level as a BEV.

    I suppose a BEV is still worth a bit more when averaging it out but not significantly more as PHEV's get very low emissions figures anyway.

    It all has to be balanced against the cost of producing a BEV and how much margin is in it relative to producing a PHEV. I can see why some OEM's are going the PHEV route. The regulations actively encourage it.


  • #406
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    i personally dont get* PHEV myself . if you gonna make the big change and change to electric .. then change to electric . dont go hybrid which still uses fuel that we are all told will be depleted soon and that are filthy for the environment.

    (* well I do in a way, because some of the Hybrids these days you dont even have to plug in do you? , you can just use fuel on the long journeys and just use the battery power in towns and when you have to keep stopping and starting isnt it?)


  • #407
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,717 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    what? on what makes them more expensive? - I cant remember i dont think so

    Your thread:

    "Where are the electric cars for the masses?"

    Linky

    In the first paragraph:

    "These electric vehicles are nearly always out of the reach of the normal consumer but why?, why dont they come cheaper? "

    Your thread has 351 posts in it

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  • #408
    adunis
    Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭adunis


    Ahhh I see another troll.......


  • #409
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    unkel wrote: »
    Your thread:

    "Where are the electric cars for the masses?"

    Linky

    In the first paragraph:

    "These electric vehicles are nearly always out of the reach of the normal consumer but why?, why dont they come cheaper? "

    Your thread has 351 posts in it

    thanks - bloody old age is a problem innit ...


  • #410
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    adunis wrote: »
    Ahhh I see another troll.......

    not really, i just forgot it was already covered - i didn't do a search.

    maybe a moderator could have moved it to the other thread then if another one wasnt allowed. i'm not a troll tho


  • #411
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Mod Note: Merged thread with the last time OP asked the question


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  • #412
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    liamog wrote: »
    Mod Note: Merged thread with the last time OP asked the question

    thanks -


  • #413
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    not really, i just forgot it was already covered - i didn't do a search.

    maybe a moderator could have moved it to the other thread then if another one wasnt allowed. i'm not a troll tho

    Not sure how you can “forget” a 300 post thread and then ask the exact same question


  • #414
    eddhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭eddhorse


    This is a ridiculous merged thread.

    Why are new technologies expensive and why are we waiting for them to develop and get cheaper.


  • #415
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    I'm sorry . The 'Where are the electric cars for the masses' thread I started at the beginning of 2019 and the last post was in March so i forgot, I'm only human.

    OTOH , I still think the question 'Why are electric vehicles more expensive to buy?' , I would of thought is maybe a different question to 'Where are the electric cars for the masses'

    but sorry if I stuffed up


  • #416
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    eddhorse wrote: »
    This is a ridiculous merged thread.

    Why are new technologies expensive and why are we waiting for them to develop and get cheaper.

    Is that a question or observation? - only electric vehicles have been around for ages now. And around 2013 with the Nissan leaf .. all they have done has fit in better motors and higher rate or more batteries.


  • #417
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    Is that a question or observation? - only electric vehicles have been around for ages now. And around 2013 with the Nissan leaf .. all they have done has fit in better motors and higher rate or more batteries.

    2011


  • #418
    September1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭September1


    Even if EVs were same cost as ICE, it would not make any sense to sell them at same price. They have lower running costs, so have higher value for purchaser and any rational manufacturer on free market should command premium for this.

    Imagine that you have a supply of fuel cards that provide 90% discount for lifetime of vehicle and you can choose to include those card with vehicle. Would it make sense to sell vehicle with card at same price as without card? It would not, hence EVs, regardless of R&D costs and manufacturing costs, should be more expensive then similar ICE models.


  • #419
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    you have 'pluses' on the saving of fuel .. but you have inconveniences in other areas.. so you still need to factor these into the equations:

    Bad infrastructure still for EV's - not enough chargers across the land and a lot of them broke, out of action sometimes for days.

    Fuel - you can fill up and pay fuel for your car in under 3 minutes.

    If you run out of fuel , someone could come along with a container and you could fill up with fuel at the edge of the road and continue on your way - what do you do if you do run out of battery power and the nearest battery charger is miles away?

    and much more you have to think about. and its these 'inconvenience' of this technology that really needs the push of electric cars. And if that means making them so attractive and tempting that you price them very near to ICE cars that will sell more of them , once the sales go up more are then made and prices come down even more for the manufacturer .. and then whether they wish to pass that onto the customer is up to them - they could get to a stage where they sell (well especially the budget entry level makers) similar price to their equivalent ICE cars, even if that means making a loss for a certain amount of time and then raking in the rewards at a later time.

    Lots of companies have had to sell something (a product or a service) at a loss (sometimes for years) and recoup their profit at a later time


  • #420
    krissovo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    What inconvenience? I get home from work and plug in, takes less than 30 sec’s. Actually it is a inconvenience, i have to reverse into my drive :mad:

    Even better when i plug in at work i get to park nearer the office and then do not have to plug in at home.

    The infrastructure is fine for my needs, getting to Dublin and back is fine for anyone who has CCS charging and willing to use IONITY.

    In 20 years I have never come across anyone carrying a can of fuel back to their car.


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  • #421
    September1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭September1


    Andy From Sligo wrote: »
    Lots of companies have had to sell something (a product or a service) at a loss (sometimes for years) and recoup their profit at a later time


    Sometimes that is true, but in case of EVs it just does not make any sense. There is a lot of people for which EVs are more convenient and again they are OK to pay extra for convenience. Do you also complain that buses are more expensive to buy then cars, because they are pretty inconvenient to park and drive on narrow roads?


  • #422
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    At 35mpg and €1.50/litre 10,000 miles costs €2k.

    How many of the masses do big miles & buy new cars? EVs will take quite a while to catch on for simple economic reasons 🤓
    Itll quite likely happen but if ICE can get cleaner & gre ed net then the political push for EVs might lessen.


  • #423
    September1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,434 ✭✭✭September1


    Augeo wrote: »
    At 35mpg and €1.50/litre 10,000 miles costs €2k.


    Typically cars do more than 10k miles in their lifetime.


  • #424
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    September1 wrote: »
    Typically cars do more than 10k miles in their lifetime.

    Yes...... But loads of folk don't want to shell out 40k on a kona or golf to 'save' 2k/annum.


  • #425
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    September1 wrote: »
    ......e. Do you also complain that buses are more expensive to buy then cars, because they are pretty inconvenient to park and drive on narrow roads?

    Buses aren't aimed at private motorists.
    Incentivising any private cars is counter to any green beliefs IMO. Cities are choked with private cars..... Awful IMO.


  • #426
    Andy From Sligo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭Andy From Sligo


    yep shocking towns and cities chocked with ICE cars and diesels stopping and starting , you might even find that most of the traffic is local traffic anyways.

    I remember years ago electric cars (when they could not do the range they do now , or the speeds they can get up to now) being marketed/touted as 'the ideal city car' or 'the second family car' - like take your petrol or diesels on the long runs but have the electric car for city and town driving. - trouble is instead of price coming down to afford the range has gone up and the EV's have gone up in price making them out of reach for those purposes now.

    I know you can say thats a good thing and now with their range and speed you no longer need the 2 cars now, just ditch your main car and have the one electric car to satisfy both car users needs now but still ...


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  • #427
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,717 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Augeo wrote: »
    Yes...... But loads of folk don't want to shell out 40k on a kona or golf to 'save' 2k/annum.

    My EV is the same size and cost the same to buy nearly 3 years ago as a similar spec Skoda Octavia petrol auto. Not 40k, but 25k

    Yet I save nearly €2k that you calculated per year in fuel alone (cost to charge is about €160 per year), plus quite a substantial amount once you add up the difference in maintenance, depreciation, tax and tolls. My home charger was installed for free.

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  • #428
    rivegauche
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rivegauche


    Plenty of electrics being leased at 120 to 180 euro per month in Germany.
    Up/Mii/Citigo, Zoe, e-Golfs.

    They're being sold but you're probably not seeing them in your neighbourhood.


  • #429
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    unkel wrote: »
    My EV is the same size and cost the same to buy nearly 3 years ago as a similar spec Skoda Octavia petrol auto. Not 40k, but 25k

    Yet I save nearly €2k that you calculated per year in fuel alone (cost to charge is about €160 per year), plus quite a substantial amount once you add up the difference in maintenance, depreciation, tax and tolls. My home charger was installed for free.

    So the ioniq is the answer? I thought they were in short supply?

    Round and round we go.


  • #430
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,717 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Another family size EV with plenty of availability starting from about €28k last time I looked, the Leaf. A few grand more than above Skoda Octavia, but thousands a year less to run. People are ignorant, or to put it more kindly: set in their ways - slow and weary to adapt to new things / a changing world...

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  • #431
    Mike9832
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,912 ✭✭✭Mike9832


    Augeo wrote: »
    Yes...... But loads of folk don't want to shell out 40k on a kona or golf to 'save' 2k/annum.

    Most people don't care about filling €30-40 a week of diesel, they are so used to it and its a small cost to alot of the population, lots of wealthy people out there with no interest in that charging crap.

    They'd be more pissed off seeing 2 month Electric bill going up by €60

    For the hassle of charging, planning trips, using fast chargers, waiting around they'll happily pay that €30 diesel

    Most people here buying EVs are frugal/not loaded, crazy commuters, geeks

    I'll buy an EV because I'm one of them

    If I was loaded not a chance would I have a 1 car household EV, id have some EV, but for long trips its a big diesel


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  • #432
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    The geek in me bought an EV.
    The car head in me liked the everyday traffic light commute performance that matched many of my older cars on daily commute M3, S3, 535d etc etc

    The stingy feck in me meant I had 2 years of saving €50-€60 a week from filling the Merc ML keep and charging in work and not even have to charge at home meant I could sell the leaf at profit and buy the i3. A car I was in years ago with cross13 (I think) and fell in love that day!

    Are there days I missed the sound of my Type R hitting vetch, yes. Are there days I miss the long revving and noise of the M3, yes. Are there days I miss third hear in the S3, hell yes. But everyday I get to use the i3 power and torque from a standstill and it feels the same.


  • #433
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    When you can buy second hand reliable electric cars for under 10 grand then you'll see widespread use, until then its a pipe dream, if an ec suited my needs i would buy but not for the price they are now, as second hands come available and can be proven reliable then you will see an uptake


  • #434
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 65,717 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Still waters wrote: »
    When you can buy second hand reliable electric cars for under 10 grand then you'll see widespread use, until then its a pipe dream

    Eh? You can buy a 141 Leaf for under 10 grand. It has the newer battery chemistry compared to the original model, so it doesn't suffer half as much from battery degradation. It is also one of the most reliable cars on the road today.

    You will save a fortune running it compared to running any petrol / diesel car.
    kceire wrote: »
    meant I could sell the leaf at profit and buy the i3. A car I was in years ago with kcross (I think) and fell in love that day!

    I don't think you ever told us that? Was probably with cros13, the former moderator of this forum and i3 owner (previous BMW M3 owner)?

    I haven't driven i3 myself, but worried that the same would happen to me and that I would sell my beautiful Porsche and get one of them :( :eek: :o

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  • #435
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    unkel wrote: »
    Eh? You can buy a 141 Leaf for under 10 grand. It has the newer battery chemistry compared to the original model, so it doesn't suffer half as much from battery degradation. It is also one of the most reliable cars on the road today.

    :( :eek: :o

    EVs are not for me yet but hopefully in the future i might have the pleasure of being able to use one, i suppose my main point is you'd need to have thousands of them available to replace the petrol/diesel cars already on the road, how far are we away from a replacement of say 25 percent EVs on our road do you think ?


  • #436
    krissovo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,645 ✭✭✭krissovo


    unkel wrote: »

    I haven't driven i3 myself, but worried that the same would happen to me and that I would sell my beautiful Porsche and get one of them :( :eek: :o

    Even worse is the bloody “S” version, wider tires, wider track and 250km of range and a tiny bit more power. Test drove one this morning......well the wife did.....

    She will be picking up a Juraco Beige I3S in January:eek:


  • #437
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    unkel wrote: »
    Eh? You can buy a 141 Leaf for under 10 grand. It has the newer battery chemistry compared to the original model, so it doesn't suffer half as much from battery degradation. It is also one of the most reliable cars on the road today.

    You will save a fortune running it compared to running any petrol / diesel car.



    I don't think you ever told us that? Was probably with cros13, the former moderator of this forum and i3 owner (previous BMW M3 owner)?

    I haven't driven i3 myself, but worried that the same would happen to me and that I would sell my beautiful Porsche and get one of them :( :eek: :o

    I always get mixed up. It may have been cross13.
    I met him in Lidl Finglas. I was buying from him or he was buying from me something from Adverts. I’ll always remember as he had the top spec also, and he bought a Nissan Leaf just to tie him over while the i3 was on order :)

    I got back into my 530d at the time I think and it felt ancient and slow compared to it.

    The best way to describe it is like driving a Starlet GT from back in the day. As much as the cars had a bad name, they handled like go-karts.

    Your more than welcome to a lend of it if you’d ever up in North Dublin for any reason.


  • #438
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    krissovo wrote: »
    Even worse is the bloody “S” version, wider tires, wider track and 250km of range and a tiny bit more power. Test drove one this morning......well the wife did.....

    She will be picking up a Juraco Beige I3S in January:eek:

    I love the S version. It’s actually unbelievable how noticeable the wider stance is and it’s more modern. I see a red one every second day on my commute and I love it.

    The wider stance, the newer 20” wheels and the general tweeks to the styling makes it a nice package.


  • #439
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,807 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Augeo wrote: »
    Yes...... But loads of folk don't want to shell out 40k on a kona or golf to 'save' 2k/annum.

    They were shelling out a lot more than that to save a few hundred in motor tax from 2008 onwards.


  • #440
    Lumen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,138 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    McGaggs wrote: »
    They were shelling out a lot more than that to save a few hundred in motor tax from 2008 onwards.

    That's true but fuel costs are death by a thousand cuts whereas tax is presented as an annual bill.

    Tesla are including fuel savings in the way they present new car prices but are Hyundai, Kia etc doing the same? Doubt it.


  • #441
    Markcheese
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,574 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    McGaggs wrote: »
    They were shelling out a lot more than that to save a few hundred in motor tax from 2008 onwards.

    That's what I always reckon when I hear "where are the affordable electric cars" , (and I still haven't made it to a post 2008 car yet, diesel or otherwise...) .
    It'll take a few years to come through the system... And in 2008 pretty much every car dealer had unlimited numbers of new chape tax diesels available... But there's a finite number of electrics available...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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