Advice: Become a teacher

99problems1 · 10-09-2019 11:04am

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Cooking is taught.

What’s taught in school is far more involved than that. I pay my taxes by not doing anything. It could be added to some business class as a day course.

So how do any small business survive? We don't learn how to pay taxes.

We don't learn how to cook.

Insect Overlord · 10-09-2019 11:08am

Article 42 of the Constitution of Ireland:

"1: The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

2: Parents shall be free to provide this education in their homes or in private schools or in schools recognised or established by the State."

There just isn't enough time in the day/week/term/year for the school system to teach every child every conceivable skill to the level of mastery expected by so many posters here, be that driving or cooking or coding or internet safety, on top of the existing curriculum. Some things should be passed on from parent to child in the home. Suggesting it's all a teacher's job is an abdication of responsibility.

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 11:12am

OEP wrote: »

If it's such an easy job, why don't the people giving out become a teacher.

I for one am not envious of teachers. I'm under 30 and earn more than most principals already, teachers do not get paid a lot and you're on a fixed pay scale regardless of ability. They're paid the right amount for their job. They might start on a reasonably high salary for a graduate but the increases over time are small. It would be stressful having to deal with kids / teenagers all day long - it would wreck my head. Yes they get a lot of holidays but I wouldn't like the lack of flexibility - you can't take time off whenever you want, only at predetermined times of the year. Want to go skiing? You have to do it at the busiest most expensive times of the year.

I don’t think anyone is saying that teaching is easy but the problem is that way too many are not cut out for the job and took it up mainly for the hours and the time off plus of course the fact that no matter how bad you are at the job you won't be sacked.

99problems1 · 10-09-2019 11:13am

Insect Overlord wrote: »

There just isn't enough time in the day/week/term/year for the school system to teach every child every conceivable skill to the level of mastery expected by so many posters here, be that driving or cooking or coding or internet safety, on top of the existing curriculum. Some things should be passed on from parent to child in the home. Suggesting it's all a teacher's job is an abdication of responsibility.

Exactly! How a parent raises their child has far more influence or importance than a teacher.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 10-09-2019 11:15am

99problems1 wrote: »

So how do any small business survive? We don't learn how to pay taxes.

We don't learn how to cook.

Cooking is in fact taught in school. Well done on learning to pay taxes. It’s simething that could be taught in a day in school.

OEP · 10-09-2019 11:16am

realdanbreen wrote: »

I don’t think anyone is saying that teaching is easy but the problem is that way too many are not cut out for the job and took it up mainly for the hours and the time off plus of course the fact that no matter how bad you are at the job you won't be sacked.

I think the OP is more or less saying that it's easy

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 10-09-2019 11:16am

99problems1 wrote: »

Exactly! How a parent raises their child has far more influence or importance than a teacher.

It should. They are the primary care giver. Schools are there to teach largely academic subjects.

99problems1 · 10-09-2019 11:21am

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Cooking is in fact taught in school. Well done on learning to pay taxes. It’s simething that could be taught in a day in school.

Who teaches it?

Would love to know!

Insect Overlord · 10-09-2019 11:27am

99problems1 wrote: »

Exactly! How a parent raises their child has far more influence or importance than a teacher.

Bear that in mind the next time you imagine a classroom scenario. Anywhere from 14 to 34 children. Maybe a few brothers and sisters, but mostly 14 to 34 different family backgrounds.

Some of the kids are looked after, provided with balanced diets and opportunities for exercise and a bit of attention in the evenings. Some of the kids have mobile phones and games consoles in their rooms and stay up late into the night talking to strangers. Some of the kids are sent out the door in the morning with a few quid for chicken rolls and Lucozade, never get any help with their homework, and go home to scenes of neglect or violence or substance abuse. Some of the kids have just arrived off a plane from Afghanistan where half of their extended family was wiped out by a suicide bomber or an air-strike, and they don't speak English.

They're all so different, and they all have very different things going on at home, with different levels of support, and still people like yourself expect "the teacher" to deal with it flawlessly without the right to occasionally vent about the challenge on a Facebook group...

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 11:31am

Insect Overlord wrote: »

99problems1 wrote: »

Exactly! How a parent raises their child has far more influence or importance than a teacher.

Bear that in mind the next time you imagine a classroom scenario. Anywhere from 14 to 34 children. Maybe a few brothers and sisters, but mostly 14 to 34 different family backgrounds.

Some of the kids are looked after, provided with balanced diets and opportunities for exercise and a bit of attention in the evenings. Some of the kids have mobile phones and games consoles in their rooms and stay up late into the night talking to strangers. Some of the kids are sent out the door in the morning with a few quid for chicken rolls and Lucozade, never get any help with their homework, and go home to scenes of neglect or violence or substance abuse. Some of the kids have just arrived off a plane from Afghanistan where half of their extended family was wiped out by a suicide bomber or an air-strike, and they don't speak English.

They're all so different, and they all have very different things going on at home, with different levels of support, and still people like yourself expect "the teacher" to deal with it flawlessly without the right to occasionally vent about the challenge on a Facebook group...

It's scary to think that it seems to come as a shock to some teachers that they might face situations like this. What the hell was going on in teacher training college!

Insect Overlord · 10-09-2019 11:36am

realdanbreen wrote: »

It's scary to think that it seems to come as a shock to some teachers that they might face situations like this. What the hell was going on in teacher training college!

Good man yourself, Dan. Twisting words to suit your own agenda.

I never once claimed it was a shock to any teacher. There are multiple modules in teacher training that address these challenges.

Many vocal personalities on the internet, however, seem to live in a world where all children are homogeneous beings with the same interests, who all learn the same way, get the same level of support at home, and who all turn up every day positively tingling with anticipation to learn from the teacher. You people project a fantasy onto the entire education system and then castigate anyone who doesn't live up to it 24/7, 365, for the entirety of their career.

99problems1 · 10-09-2019 11:37am

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Bear that in mind the next time you imagine a classroom scenario. Anywhere from 14 to 34 children. Maybe a few brothers and sisters, but mostly 14 to 34 different family backgrounds.

Some of the kids are looked after, provided with balanced diets and opportunities for exercise and a bit of attention in the evenings. Some of the kids have mobile phones and games consoles in their rooms and stay up late into the night talking to strangers. Some of the kids are sent out the door in the morning with a few quid for chicken rolls and Lucozade, never get any help with their homework, and go home to scenes of neglect or violence or substance abuse. Some of the kids have just arrived off a plane from Afghanistan where half of their extended family was wiped out by a suicide bomber or an air-strike, and they don't speak English.

They're all so different, and they all have very different things going on at home, with different levels of support, and still people like yourself expect "the teacher" to deal with it flawlessly without the right to occasionally vent about the challenge on a Facebook group...

Literally the other day there was a post on that group asking how to apply for jobs....

The vast majority of kids behave in school and do as they are asked.

In any case, people do that anyways on weekends. Look at your u-10s football team which is far more responsibility than sitting in a classroom. Yet these people do it for free and don't be thinking how it's such a drain or hard work.

And again, go work in retail with narky customers or a call centre?

99problems1 · 10-09-2019 11:43am

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Good man yourself, Dan. Twisting words to suit your own agenda.

I never once claimed it was a shock to any teacher. There are multiple modules in teacher training that address these challenges.

Many vocal personalities on the internet, however, seem to live in a world where all children are homogeneous beings with the same interests, who all learn the same way, get the same level of support at home, and who all turn up every day positively tingling with anticipation to learn from the teacher. You people project a fantasy onto the entire education system and then castigate anyone who doesn't live up to it 24/7, 365, for the entirety of their career.

More like teachers think they are the only ones that have challenges. Everyone does.

Imagine a health and safety worker? Teachers must think everyone comes in thinking of safety and behave in the safest manner all the time. They don't be thinking of the fella with an angle grinder beside explosive chemicals, or a lad opening a high voltage panel without ppe.

thesimpsons · 10-09-2019 11:43am

thecomedian wrote: »

thesimpsons wrote: »

So ? Loads of people in all walks of jobs do unpaid work all uear long - its not particular or even mandatory for teachers. Its called giving back to society.

No they don’t. Very few spend doing extra hours every week for nothing.[/quote]

Ah come on now, thats ridiculous imo. Few, if any, of the other volunteer coaches I've worked with, across a wide range of extra academic activities, are teachers.

99problems1 · 10-09-2019 11:44am

thesimpsons wrote: »

No they don’t. Very few spend doing extra hours every week for nothing.

Ah come on now, thats ridiculous imo. Few if any of the other volunteer coaches I've worked with, across a wide range of extra academic activities, are teachers.[/QUOTE]

This is very true.

Of all the sports I have played throughout my life, none have been volunteered by teachers. The reason being they'll be off travelling during the summer.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 10-09-2019 11:46am

There really should be a differentiation between salary in Dublin (maybe Cork, Galway, Limerick) versus the rest of the country. Rent alone makes it so much harder and expensive.

That goes for every job really. But the private sector seems to be able to balance this out much more easily.

Actually feel sorry for people getting the dole in Dublin versus other parts of the country. You can survive on so much less outside of the big urban areas.

*I find it hard to feel sorry for the newer teachers that have entered the profession. Even though they are in my age bracket. They are being shafted by the older teachers and their unions who wanted to protect those already in.

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 12:10pm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

realdanbreen wrote: »

It's scary to think that it seems to come as a shock to some teachers that they might face situations like this. What the hell was going on in teacher training college!

Good man yourself, Dan. Twisting words to suit your own agenda.

I never once claimed it was a shock to any teacher. There are multiple modules in teacher training that address these challenges.

Many vocal personalities on the internet, however, seem to live in a world where all children are homogeneous beings with the same interests, who all learn the same way, get the same level of support at home, and who all turn up every day positively tingling with anticipation to learn from the teacher. You people project a fantasy onto the entire education system and then castigate anyone who doesn't live up to it 24/7, 365, for the entirety of their career.

So apart from all that, how many incompetent teachers have been sacked in say the last 5 years?

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 12:43pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

So apart from all that, how many incompetent teachers have been sacked in say the last 5 years?

?

Edgware · 10-09-2019 12:47pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

So apart from all that, how many incompetent teachers have been sacked in say the last 5 years?

Incompetence isnt a ground for dismissal in Ireland

paleoperson · 10-09-2019 12:51pm

thecomedian wrote: »

They learn how to teach.

If you understand it well yourself you can teach it. Think of your best Junior Cert subject. Do you reckon you could do it now? Try to hold me back from it.

Another thing about teaching is that you can learn more about your subject and it solidifies your knowledge of what you do know. That's a main reason why research and teaching became so intertwined at third level - because researchers realized that teaching would make themselves think about and go over the material more. But at least with 3rd level they're pressurized into coming up with new stuff advancing their field (at least allegedly).

So for example a history teacher can routinely switch up all his sources, bringing in documentaries he wanted to view and so on. Ask students to write up projects on different things and have a nice old time reading them. Science would be a bit more constrained at second level, but still with new books every few years and students asking awkward questions it could be very stimulating. For English teachers it's the same. I'm sure they get papers published and everything, they certainly have the time for it.

James Bond Junior · 10-09-2019 12:53pm

Edgware wrote: »

Incompetence isnt a ground for dismissal in Ireland

That is an unfair stick to beat all teachers with. I've taught with a huge amount of teachers and the incompetent ones are such a tiny minority, in primary anyway, that is negligible. I do agree that incompetent teachers should be removed but they don't exist like Joe Public likes to think or believe they do.

10-09-2019 12:54pm

I would love to be a teacher. Been working in finance for the past 13 years and would love a career change. Didn't get maths in my leaving though (and yet I work in finance) so I think that scuppers my chance of becoming a teacher.

Insect Overlord · 10-09-2019 12:57pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

?

No idea, to be honest.

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 12:58pm

James Bond Junior wrote: »

That is an unfair stick to beat all teachers with. I've taught with a huge amount of teachers and the incompetent ones are such a tiny minority, in primary anyway, that is negligible. I do agree that incompetent teachers should be removed but they don't exist like Joe Public likes to think or believe they do.

if you agree that they should be removed then you surely have lobbied your union to see about getting them removed?

Insect Overlord · 10-09-2019 1:00pm

paleoperson wrote: »

If you understand it well yourself you can teach it. Think of your best Junior Cert subject. Do you reckon you could do it now? Try to hold me back from it.

That's an absolute fallacy. Having an in-depth understanding of anything, whether it's a language or professional sports or coding, does not automatically make one a good teacher or coach or instructor.

99problems1 · 10-09-2019 1:04pm

Edgware wrote: »

Incompetence isnt a ground for dismissal in Ireland

Go to the private sector and you won't last long. Sure if you could never get go and guaranteed salary increases every year what motivation is there?

kippy · 10-09-2019 1:49pm

99problems1 wrote: »

Go to the private sector and you won't last long. Sure if you could never get go and guaranteed salary increases every year what motivation is there?

This nonsense get's spun out in any of these types of conversations.
There are plenty incompendent and lazy people working in the private sector. Some for many years in the same company - I think there are plenty here would would back me up when I say that.
Thats not an excuse for incompetance or lazy people, just an argument that you wont get away with incompetance or laziness in the private sector. The bigger the company, the easier it is to get away with I would suggest with some roles being easier to hide in than others.

realdanbreen · 10-09-2019 2:13pm

kippy wrote: »

This nonsense get's spun out in any of these types of conversations.
There are plenty incompendent and lazy people working in the private sector. Some for many years in the same company - I think there are plenty here would would back me up when I say that.
Thats not an excuse for incompetance or lazy people, just an argument that you wont get away with incompetance or laziness in the private sector. The bigger the company, the easier it is to get away with I would suggest with some roles being easier to hide in than others.

Well maybe you might know seeing that nobody else here seems to, how many teachers have been sacked here in the last 5 years?

kippy · 10-09-2019 2:17pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Well maybe you might know seeing that nobody else here seems to, how many teachers have been sacked here in the last 5 years?

I've no idea to be completely honest. I just did a google search for teacher dismissal in Ireland and it appears there have been a few that have made it into the papers/courts - mostly for gross misconduct but I doubt the numbers dismissed in general are available. If you asked me how many "insert private sector profession" have been sacked for incompetence the past five years I wouldn't know either.

paleoperson · 10-09-2019 2:45pm

Insect Overlord wrote: »

That's an absolute fallacy. Having an in-depth understanding of anything, whether it's a language or professional sports or coding, does not automatically make one a good teacher or coach or instructor.

Well you're contradicting Einstein who said: "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

Professional sports is very different. You are trying to understand the science, technique and psychology behind many different individuals. It's a significantly different skill to doing it yourself.

Coding yes, a good coder can surely teach schoolchildren.

Hell, the biggest danger would be that you'd be too advanced at something for you to communicate so well with students. For example a maths teacher who is poor at maths might be like "this is the way I always think of it" or show the way they clumsily get the solution. On the other hand someone really advanced might start putting their hands over their face (not of their own free will) and be unable to understand how the students didn't understand. Once I had a sub maths teacher who was so bad that most of the class understood it better than her - and that was before she started teaching a topic. We had her for months, half the time the students were teaching her, it was truly bizarre.

Advice: Become a teacher

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