Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

20silkcut · 24-06-2019 01:42AM

It’s like a real life version of the novel lord of the flies with the EU playing the role of the beast. The non existent existential threat.

hatrickpatrick · 24-06-2019 03:27AM

I haven't payed much attention to the leadership contest until this clusterf*ck happened, but just posting this to see if I'm right later: This whole "Boris Johnson in row with his partner SHOCKER" incident will backfire spectacularly on those who have reported it. Even if it's not an intentional character assassination, it massively looks like a stitch up (indeed, people in my family - who are all staunch remainers and who include a mixture of journalists and people involved in government - have been saying this repeatedly over the last few days) - the story reeks of a set-up or take down even if it actually isn't intended to be one. This will cause his supporters, by and large, to double down - while driving at least some undecideds to his side purely for the cynical "I'm voting for this guy because They (with a capital T) obviously don't want me to" factor. This type of cynicism and doubling down was what drove a lot of people to vote for Brexit in the first place, the idea that this will cause them to abandon their Lord and Saviour in his darkest hour is ridiculous. He may temporarily slip in the polls as a result of this controversy, but this is only going to end up boosting and cementing his support.

That's my view anyway, we'll see how it pans out.

Peregrinus · 24-06-2019 03:39AM

It's certainly not a set-up or a stitch-up; nobody is disputing the basic facts, and nobody suggests that Johnson was enticed or ensnared into a row with his partner.

What you can say is that Johnson's political opponents have ensured that this story sees the light of day. But, seriously, it was always likely to. Police called to altercation at home of prominent politician, involving prominent politician? We were always going to hear about that.

Will it harm Johnson? Johnson't main selling point is that he is a charming unprincipled sh!t with a strong sense of entitlement, and the great bulk of his supporters know that, and vote for him because they calcluate that an entitled unprincipled sh!t is what the Tory party needs right now. There may be some who are a bit squeamish about having to confront so graphically the naked truth of their own betrayal of decency, but I think most of them will swallow this, in much the way that a lot of US evangelical Christian voters have swallowed Trump the adulterous pussy-grabber.

ilovesmybrick · 24-06-2019 09:36AM

Brexit: alternative to Irish backstop 'feasible in three years'

So I haven't read the report itself, but the article seems to suggest that they think the solution would be for the EU to allow Ireland deviate from EU standards and have special rules for Ireland and Britain? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this seems to be a more convoluted and difficult to implement version of Northern Ireland staying part of the EU customs area, and instead creating some weird hybrid Northern Ireland economic zones and an Irish and UK rulebook that diverges from the EU?

To be honest as a concept it would be a good starting point for discussion...three years ago, but three months (supposedly) before leaving it seems like a waste of time and paper.

Leroy42 · 24-06-2019 09:44AM

It also makes a mockery of the ERG insistence that they would be locked in forever. Agree the WA and put together a formal government plan to deliver on the alternatives by 3 years.

Focus the country on that as the final leave date.

robinph · 24-06-2019 09:45AM

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Brexit: alternative to Irish backstop 'feasible in three years'

So I haven't read the report itself, but the article seems to suggest that they think the solution would be for the EU to allow Ireland deviate from EU standards and have special rules for Ireland and Britain? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this seems to be a more convoluted and difficult to implement version of Northern Ireland staying part of the EU customs area, and instead creating some weird hybrid Northern Ireland economic zones and an Irish and UK rulebook that diverges from the EU?

To be honest as a concept it would be a good starting point for discussion...three years ago, but three months (supposedly) before leaving it seems like a waste of time and paper.

Would have been a good starting point for discussion between the UK and Ireland before the referendum was even considered in order for the UK to see if such a thing was possible and Ireland was OK to permit it/ move away from EU themselves.

Professor Moriarty · 24-06-2019 09:53AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's certainly not a set-up or a stitch-up; nobody is disputing the basic facts, and nobody suggests that Johnson was enticed or ensnared into a row with his partner.

What you can say is that Johnson's political opponents have ensured that this story sees the light of day. But, seriously, it was always likely to. Police called to altercation at home of prominent politician, involving prominent politician? We were always going to hear about that.

Will it harm Johnson? Johnson't main selling point is that he is a charming unprincipled sh!t with a strong sense of entitlement, and the great bulk of his supporters know that, and vote for him because they calcluate that an entitled unprincipled sh!t is what the Tory party needs right now. There may be some who are a bit squeamish about having to confront so graphically the naked truth of their own betrayal of decency, but I think most of them will swallow this, in much the way that a lot of US evangelical Christian voters have swallowed Trump the adulterous pussy-grabber.

It was so loud the three sets of neighbours distinctly heard the altercation. So it wasn't just a simple lovers' tiff. Also, some papers are reporting that this is not an isolated incident. Just a thought. Johnson and his partner intend living in No. 10. It would be interesting, to say the least. to see police calling to No. 10 for a domestic incident.

Nody · 24-06-2019 09:54AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

It also makes a mockery of the ERG insistence that they would be locked in forever. Agree the WA and put together a formal government plan to deliver on the alternatives by 3 years.

Focus the country on that as the final leave date.

Except the "solution" is not an actual solution and was proposed by UK back in 2017 and rejected by EU due to multiple failures. It's magical unicorn dust sprinkled over the same thing all over again to be sold as a "solution" that EU are rejecting to set the narrative.

From the article:

Multi tiered trust certificates for companies - New system and way of vetting which takes way longer than 3 years
Small companies excluded - Allowed to ignore all EU rules because you're a small company? Yea; that one will go down well
Sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS)” tests could be carried out by mobile units "away from the border" so in practice we got a border but we just moved the controls away breaking the deal anyway
Ireland in practice leaving the EU single market due to having it's own rulebook

In short it's like May's proposed deal with a new name on the "solution" which is not an actual solution and as a cherry on top it breaches DUP requirements as well. It's a no go from EU, DUP and reality but that's never stopped a Brexiteer before to propose something as a solution.

Peregrinus · 24-06-2019 10:00AM

robinph wrote: »

Would have been a good starting point for discussion between the UK and Ireland before the referendum was even considered in order for the UK to see if such a thing was possible and Ireland was OK to permit it/ move away from EU themselves.

Ireland can't; it's an EU competence. This is just a variation on the line that the right way to keep the border open after Brexit is Irexit.

Loafing Oaf · 24-06-2019 10:09AM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Ms Symonds, who you'd imagine is in a pretty pivotal position now if there's any truth to this. If she decided to walk out on him and 'dish the dirt' it could do him serious damage...

Seemingly not going to happen and she is very much standing by her man.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9354092/boris-johnson-furious-partner-carrie-symonds-stitch-up-anti-brexit/

A Boris camp insider said: “As far as Carrie is concerned this is a stitch-up.

“Both she and Boris are convinced that this was politically-motivated.

“It was a row like lots of couples have at the end of a demanding day but suddenly they found the police on their doorstep.”

So I guess this is end of story unless that recording is released and there's something very juicy on it. Even then if Carrie is saying it's not a big issue it'll be hard for anyone else to make one of it either.

Leroy42 · 24-06-2019 10:30AM

But Team Boris are spectacularly missing the point. He is a politician based almost entirely on his charisma and personality. It is thus a bit much much to suddenly ask people to forget about his personality and focus on his achievements or policies.

In addition, no one is claiming it didn't happen, so the only 'leftist' plan was to make it public (if one accepts the plan idea). But that misses the point that A) it happened and

he could have easily simply laughed it off/explained it away rather than this weird attempt to cover it up, even getting some supporters to go to bat for him. What is. or at least should be, worrying for the Tory party is how terribly he has handled this and how unable he has been to face up to it.

If this is the type of thing that gets him flustered then the Tories are taking a real gamble with him as the leader.

Tell me how · 24-06-2019 10:39AM

Thargor wrote: »

Boris is getting hammered on Twitter about this Bannon tape, he previously denied any relationship with him and called it lefty delusion but Bannon claims in a new documentary to be heavily involved with him, back and forths over writing his resignation speech, advised him to target Muslim women etc.

Apparently BBC did not cover the uncovering of this tape on their main news yesterday..... Seems bizarre not to.

Instead, they gave Facebook head of global affairs (One Nick Clegg) the opportunity to say that FB/Cambridge Anaytica/Russia had nothing to do with influencing public opinion before the referendum.

devnull · 24-06-2019 10:40AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Apparently BBC did not cover the uncovering of this tape on their main news yesterday..... Seems bizarre not to.

Instead, they gave Facebook head of global affairs (One Nick Clegg) the opportunity to say that FB/Cambridge Anaytica/Russia had nothing to do with influencing public opinion before the referendum.

Unfortunately you should know by now that British State TV has an agenda and cannot be trusted. There is inherient bias in State TV in Britain because of their relience on the state for funding therefore they will be doing the best that they can to appease their paymasters.

It's sad but true.

Leroy42 · 24-06-2019 10:45AM

devnull wrote: »

Unfortunately you should know by now that British State TV has an agenda and cannot be trusted. There is inherient bias in State TV in Britain because of their relience on the state for funding therefore they will be doing the best that they can to appease their paymasters.

It's sad but true.

I really don't think this is true. IMO they have just gone far too far on the whole 'balance' area whereby now it seems that they are scared to challenge anyone but if they do challenge one thing it must immediately be followed with a challenge to the other side, even if the other side has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Case in point, the Tories are a mess over Brexit, but whenever it is said it must be followed by the statement that Labour are terrible as well. Whilst not untrue, it really has no bearing on whether or not the Tories are being competent, or indeed even truthful, in terms of Brexit.

Stop moaning ffs · 24-06-2019 10:47AM

Tangential but the times has a story on Russia targeting Northern Ireland with fake stories on fb. There are more than a few of these accounts doing the same visible all across Boards too.

https://twitter.com/moreganit/status/1143032006550441984?s=21

Tell me how · 24-06-2019 10:49AM

devnull wrote: »

Unfortunately you should know by now that British State TV has an agenda and cannot be trusted. There is inherient bias in State TV in Britain because of their relience on the state for funding therefore they will be doing the best that they can to appease their paymasters.

It's sad but true.

I'm not so sure about that viewpoint. Many right wing publications accuse them of being anti-government, others of them being pro-Tory. A Tory MP recently said that they would enact legislation to curb their bias so what does that tell you?
If both sides are complaining about you, you generally must not be too bad.

But this should have been covered and I do think some prejudice was involved in deciding not to do so, but I don't know was this prejudice because someone didn't want to show Boris in a bad light, they didn't want to show how an ultra-right wing Trump supporter and employee was guiding UK politicians on Brexit or they just didn't want to upset the government.

Stop moaning ffs · 24-06-2019 10:52AM

A much bigger deal should be made of Boris lying and demonstrably so about engaging Bannon.
It’s been lost under the nonsense about the domestic row.
Uk media really isn’t doing its job.

robinph · 24-06-2019 10:56AM

devnull wrote: »

Unfortunately you should know by now that British State TV has an agenda and cannot be trusted. There is inherient bias in State TV in Britain because of their relience on the state for funding therefore they will be doing the best that they can to appease their paymasters.

It's sad but true.

But the next bunch of people to control the purse strings are generally whoever is currently in opposition. They can't (and don't) operate in a way to always appease whoever is currently in power, because that never lasts and whoever they were going against last election cycle will be their bosses next time round.

That both sides think the BBC is biased basically means that they are not...although I think pretty much everyone thinks that Farage gets too much airtime.

Professor Moriarty · 24-06-2019 11:04AM

robinph wrote: »

But the next bunch of people to control the purse strings are generally whoever is currently in opposition. They can't (and don't) operate in a way to always appease whoever is currently in power, because that never lasts and whoever they were going against last election cycle will be their bosses next time round.

That both sides think the BBC is biased basically means that they are not...although I think pretty much everyone thinks that Farage gets too much airtime.

What is also being overlooked is that pro Brexit opinions are being given much more airtime than anti Brexit opinions. This is because of the inordinate focus on the Tory leadership contest which is being contested by Brexiteers.

Tell me how · 24-06-2019 11:20AM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

What is also being overlooked is that pro Brexit opinions are being given much more airtime than anti Brexit opinions. This is because of the inordinate focus on the Tory leadership contest which is being contested by Brexiteers.

Some argue weekly that the Question Time show is inherently anti-Brexit. More say every week that it is blindingly pro-Brexit.

I listen to the Brexitcast podcast and I find it very pro-UK, that's not to say it is pro-Brexit as such but the presenters all seem to be very confident in the UK's standing and capability (and relevance) in the world.

Professor Moriarty · 24-06-2019 11:27AM

Tell me how wrote: »

Some argue weekly that the Question Time show is inherently anti-Brexit. More say every week that it is blindingly pro-Brexit.

I listen to the Brexitcast podcast and I find it very pro-UK, that's not to say it is pro-Brexit as such but the presenters all seem to be very confident in the UK's standing and capability (and relevance) in the world.

I tend to watch the BBC and Sky only. I never see Question Time but will often see Newsnight and The Marr Show. TBF, both Maitlis and Marr are very quick to shoot holes in Brexiteer arguments. If anything, Sky would be lean towards anti Brexit rather than pro. Of course you then have The Telegraph, Mail, Express, Sun etcetra, but life's too short to be reading that rubbish.

Leroy42 · 24-06-2019 11:30AM

I listen to BRexitcast as well and I agree that it is very Pro-UK. Katya seems to be the only one even trying to get across the issues, but even she won't go the full hog on it and keeps throwing in the "there is always a change" line. Which of course is true, but she needs to clarify the likelyness of it and it wouldn't do her any harm to try to explain the issues facing the EU from BRexit in terms of the politicians.

It is all discussed through the prism of UK politics as if Leo, Macron etc have no electorate or issues themselves.

I certainly feel they have lost their way a bit recently, letting the success and nice feedback go to their heads. Now a portion of every podcast is giving over to just how great they each are, how much the politicians and others love them and just how zany they all are.

I get it that it is supposed to be somewhat lighthearted as well, but there is a balance and IMO they are getting it very very wrong. For example, wil they take down Johnson over his insistence on "Art 24, or whatever" or will they simply laugh it off? Based on all prior Laura will simply gasp at how incredible it all is and that she received a text message from a Tory MP. She seems to what people be to amazed that she knows the MP's, when that is actually simply her job!

They also fail to deal with the wider world or what is coming next. What happens, in either deal or No deal, after?

Tell me how · 24-06-2019 11:38AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I listen to BRexitcast as well and I agree that it is very Pro-UK. Katya seems to be the only one even trying to get across the issues, but even she won't go the full hog on it and keeps throwing in the "there is always a change" line. Which of course is true, but she needs to clarify the likelyness of it and it wouldn't do her any harm to try to explain the issues facing the EU from BRexit in terms of the politicians.

It is all discussed through the prism of UK politics as if Leo, Macron etc have no electorate or issues themselves.

I certainly feel they have lost their way a bit recently, letting the success and nice feedback go to their heads. Now a portion of every podcast is giving over to just how great they each are, how much the politicians and others love them and just how zany they all are.

I get it that it is supposed to be somewhat lighthearted as well, but there is a balance and IMO they are getting it very very wrong. For example, wil they take down Johnson over his insistence on "Art 24, or whatever" or will they simply laugh it off? Based on all prior Laura will simply gasp at how incredible it all is and that she received a text message from a Tory MP. She seems to what people be to amazed that she knows the MP's, when that is actually simply her job!

They also fail to deal with the wider world or what is coming next. What happens, in either deal or No deal, after?

Black Bold part - Most definitely. On the latest edition, the EU summit was going on and Katya said that even though other EU ministers were involved in summit discussions, she wondered were they actually talking about who would be the next Tory leader.

Blue bold part - Yeah. The love to clap themselves on the back. When tony Connelly was on it, he seemed to find it awkward that he wanted to focus on the serious discussions where they wanted to talk about how good they all were to have their own podcasts.

Red bold part - Agree. Most serious discussion on the last episode was when John Barnes (who had been on QT) joined them.

Stop moaning ffs · 24-06-2019 11:39AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I listen to BRexitcast as well and I agree that it is very Pro-UK. Katya seems to be the only one even trying to get across the issues, but even she won't go the full hog on it and keeps throwing in the "there is always a change" line. Which of course is true, but she needs to clarify the likelyness of it and it wouldn't do her any harm to try to explain the issues facing the EU from BRexit in terms of the politicians.

It is all discussed through the prism of UK politics as if Leo, Macron etc have no electorate or issues themselves.

I certainly feel they have lost their way a bit recently, letting the success and nice feedback go to their heads. Now a portion of every podcast is giving over to just how great they each are, how much the politicians and others love them and just how zany they all are.

I get it that it is supposed to be somewhat lighthearted as well, but there is a balance and IMO they are getting it very very wrong. For example, wil they take down Johnson over his insistence on "Art 24, or whatever" or will they simply laugh it off? Based on all prior Laura will simply gasp at how incredible it all is and that she received a text message from a Tory MP. She seems to what people be to amazed that she knows the MP's, when that is actually simply her job!

They also fail to deal with the wider world or what is coming next. What happens, in either deal or No deal, after?

Everything out of her mouth is a source she can’t name but a high up Tory and rumours she’s been told. And she reports these as facts. ‘The Eu will blink first and back down ‘ etc
Her job is to question and challenge those she claims to have all these quotes and info from. She doesn’t. She repeats it as news.
That’s either low key propaganda or she just isn’t very good at being a journalist.
Yet in this debacle she’s a perfect representation of everything that’s wrong with the whole brexit disaster. Journalists and outlets acting as mouthpieces with agendas rather than questioning and challenging the factions involved.

Professor Moriarty · 24-06-2019 12:31PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I listen to BRexitcast as well and I agree that it is very Pro-UK. Katya seems to be the only one even trying to get across the issues, but even she won't go the full hog on it and keeps throwing in the "there is always a change" line. Which of course is true, but she needs to clarify the likelyness of it and it wouldn't do her any harm to try to explain the issues facing the EU from BRexit in terms of the politicians.

It is all discussed through the prism of UK politics as if Leo, Macron etc have no electorate or issues themselves.

I certainly feel they have lost their way a bit recently, letting the success and nice feedback go to their heads. Now a portion of every podcast is giving over to just how great they each are, how much the politicians and others love them and just how zany they all are.

I get it that it is supposed to be somewhat lighthearted as well, but there is a balance and IMO they are getting it very very wrong. For example, wil they take down Johnson over his insistence on "Art 24, or whatever" or will they simply laugh it off? Based on all prior Laura will simply gasp at how incredible it all is and that she received a text message from a Tory MP. She seems to what people be to amazed that she knows the MP's, when that is actually simply her job!

They also fail to deal with the wider world or what is coming next. What happens, in either deal or No deal, after?

It was interesting to hear arch Brexiteer Fox forensically dismiss Johnson's belief that GATT 24 (interesting summation here would mitigate the impact of No Deal. In fact, much of what Fox said throughout the interview was mood music for a May type premiership.

PeadarCo · 24-06-2019 12:54PM

Tell me how wrote:

I listen to the Brexitcast podcast and I find it very pro-UK, that's not to say it is pro-Brexit as such but the presenters all seem to be very confident in the UK's standing and capability (and relevance) in the world.

Is this not a big part of the problem. The UK is no longer a super power and it is negotiating with a economic superpower in the EU. Brexiters completely over estimate the UKs bargaining power, even after 2 years of negotiation.

Charles Babbage · 24-06-2019 12:57PM

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Brexit: alternative to Irish backstop 'feasible in three years'

So I haven't read the report itself, but the article seems to suggest that they think the solution would be for the EU to allow Ireland deviate from EU standards and have special rules for Ireland and Britain? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but this seems to be a more convoluted and difficult to implement version of Northern Ireland staying part of the EU customs area, and instead creating some weird hybrid Northern Ireland economic zones and an Irish and UK rulebook that diverges from the EU?

To be honest as a concept it would be a good starting point for discussion...three years ago, but three months (supposedly) before leaving it seems like a waste of time and paper.

Freight NI are always a clear source of analysis on this osrt of waffle.

https://twitter.com/freight_NI

VinLieger · 24-06-2019 02:35PM

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Uk media really isn’t doing its job.

Whats new? They haven't been doing their job for at least the last 7-8 years

Itssoeasy · 24-06-2019 04:13PM

Emma Barnett does do a good job of holding the brexiteer lot to account and she does it very simply, and it's by not taking all they are saying as gospel. She challenges them and most of them don't do well when challenged.

MrMusician18 · 24-06-2019 05:01PM

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain

Max Hastings pens a withering assessment of Johnson's character.

Among a very quotable article, this stands out for me:
"Johnson would not recognise truth, whether about his private or political life, if confronted by it in an identity parade. "

Brexit discussion thread IX (Please read OP before posting)

Comments