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Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

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    #9602
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,268 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Twitter, or at least my feed, is interesting tonight. You have people commenting that you cannot but feel sorry for May crying as she announced she will be leaving her job as she is bad at it. The replies are, as expected, not great for May. But she did not shed a tear for the Windrush or the victims of Grenfell but she has tears for herself? No wonder she was able to be so friendly with Trump, two peas in a pod.

    There are some comments how impressive it is that the Tories were able to self implode all by themselves without a proper opposition, the replies from the fateful (cult members?) is obviously how they have frustrated her on Brexit and made her lose her majority in Parliament. There is some magical whitewashing from both sides and rewriting going on at the moment. It is incredible to watch, it is like how Remain parties won massive amounts of council seats and the result was spun as somehow this is a message to get on with Brexit. We are going to be walked into a no-deal because there is no leadership in the UK and they are about to elect a goofy PM who will say what he needs to to become PM and will then be bound by that and the opposition who wants exactly that outcome, even if this is against the wishes of his party. The same members he said he would empower he is going to let them be hung out to dry because he wants to become PM and turn the UK into some socialist haven that will be able to function outside of the EU as they are the enemy.

    What a time to be alive.

    I think the above shows the risk of projecting our own prejudices on to events and rewriting history. It was well reported that May and Trump had little or no chemistry and indeed Trump openly criticised May's Brexit strategy.


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    #9603
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,887 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Who could have predicted headlines like this back when these threads started? [/sarcasm]

    RMzMHm4.jpg


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    #9604
    ThePanjandrum
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Her legacy has to be judged by "You know what people call us? The nasty party!"

    'A bloody difficult woman' with a bloody difficult job Police and Army numbers are low.

    More of her legacy here Theresa May: Did she solve her seven burning injustices?
    tl;dr version - No. Most got worse.

    To the extent that
    Poverty in the UK is 'systematic' and 'tragic', says UN special rapporteur


    Now there's an interesting report from the UN special rapporteur (who recruits unpaid interns to work for him). The UK is singled out by him, but according to the OECD the UK's child poverty rate is a little higher than Ireland's and a little lower than Germany's, France's, Australia's, Luxembourg's, New Zealand's, Japan's and Canada's - to mention a few other countries. It is lower than the OECD average and the lowest of the top 10 world economies by nominal GDP.


    But somehow it is singled out by a wealthy and privileged, left wing, Australian academic who teaches in a top American University and uses the UN as a platform for his activism. Strange, that.


    https://www.oecd.org/els/CO_2_2_Child_Poverty.pdf


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    #9605
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    Now there's an interesting report from the UN special rapporteur (who recruits unpaid interns to work for him). The UK is singled out by him, but according to the OECD the UK's child poverty rate is a little higher than Ireland's and a little lower than Germany's, France's, Australia's, Luxembourg's, New Zealand's, Japan's and Canada's - to mention a few other countries. It is lower than the OECD average and the lowest of the top 10 world economies by nominal GDP.


    But somehow it is singled out by a wealthy and privileged, left wing, Australian academic who teaches in a top American University and uses the UN as a platform for his activism. Strange, that.


    https://www.oecd.org/els/CO_2_2_Child_Poverty.pdf


    When you don't like the message, attack the messenger. If you think, like the DWP, that the report is wrong and everything is fine and should continue as is then that is your opinion. The rise is food banks being used and the performance of the Tories over the last 3 elections should tell you how people feel about their lives. I believe one of the consequences of this is people believing Brexit will make their lives better and I think that is why it was included in the links, to show that things will not be getting better anytime soon with Brexit still to happen as well.


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    #9606
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,784 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Enzokk wrote: »
    When you don't like the message, attack the messenger. If you think, like the DWP, that the report is wrong and everything is fine and should continue as is then that is your opinion. The rise is food banks being used and the performance of the Tories over the last 3 elections should tell you how people feel about their lives. I believe one of the consequences of this is people believing Brexit will make their lives better and I think that is why it was included in the links, to show that things will not be getting better anytime soon with Brexit still to happen as well.

    And the dropping of working hours too.

    Is it any wonder the tories want out of the EU worker protections. What's gawking is there are cheerleaders here for it.

    Supposedly working class ones.


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    #9607
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,171 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The austerity policy just ran too long for the UK people. What is happening now is attributable to Osbourne and Cameron.


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    #9608
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,521 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Water John wrote: »
    The austerity policy just ran too long for the UK people. What is happening now is attributable to Osbourne and Cameron.

    Hard to think that they have managed to take the period from 2016 onwards during which most other nations were seeing some prosperity after the 08 crash and filled it with the Brexit fiasco, unwanted general elections, failed MP terms, and Windrush and Grenfell failures in public relations.

    Not the UK's finest hour.


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    #9609
    ThePanjandrum
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    Enzokk wrote: »
    When you don't like the message, attack the messenger. If you think, like the DWP, that the report is wrong and everything is fine and should continue as is then that is your opinion. The rise is food banks being used and the performance of the Tories over the last 3 elections should tell you how people feel about their lives. I believe one of the consequences of this is people believing Brexit will make their lives better and I think that is why it was included in the links, to show that things will not be getting better anytime soon with Brexit still to happen as well.


    If you notice, my main point (backed by statistics), is that the UK is not notably worse than other developed and developing countries and is better than most. However, it has been singled out twice by this man for criticism, which indicates to me that he is working to a political agenda and seeing his biography makes it clear what this is.


    Ireland and the UK are quite close together in the statistics and the Irish Times had an editorial in December about Irish poverty https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-poverty-in-ireland-the-forgotten-one-in-five-1.3735915 in which it spoke about hungry children. The British foodbanks are a community response to this situation by people wanting to show that they care. In many areas (like my own, which is not especially rich) supply far exceeds demand so most of the food is taken on to other foodbanks, but still we give because it's a way we respond. Why do you think the scheme has not spread to Ireland? There seems to be the same need but not the same voluntary provision.


    Finally, the measure of child poverty in rich economies is really more of an indication of inequality rather than need. It could well be, for example, that if the UK became poorer that the measure of child poverty might fall. The families would be poorer but they would no longer be classed as poor. No-one ever seems to mention statistics for measuring absolute poverty though or even the share of total disposable income (or maybe actual income in PPP terms) by decile.


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    #9610
    ThePanjandrum
    Registered Users Posts: 431 ✭✭ThePanjandrum


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    I think the above shows the risk of projecting our own prejudices on to events and rewriting history. It was well reported that May and Trump had little or no chemistry and indeed Trump openly criticised May's Brexit strategy.


    May and her coterie hated Trump. He was looked on them as not being one of them. The Tory hierarchy was always more taken by Clinton (male and female) and by the deity Obama. But then, a European survey claimed that from its policies and pronouncements by the hierarcht, the Tory Party ranked left of centre in European terms.


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    #9611
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    If you notice, my main point (backed by statistics), is that the UK is not notably worse than other developed and developing countries and is better than most. However, it has been singled out twice by this man for criticism, which indicates to me that he is working to a political agenda and seeing his biography makes it clear what this is.


    So you are saying he shouldn't report about child poverty because it is not much worse than other countries? Have you considered the reason he is reporting on the current situation is because the conditions that are allowing for this to happen will not improve in the UK without action?

    As you so succinctly point out that child poverty is not unknown in other countries when compared to the UK. You then have to surely look at why it happens in each individual country and if the conditions will be making it better or worse. As he points out the reason for the rise and why the UK is just as bad for child poverty is the cuts made since 2010 and the fact they seem to be ideological choices at this point and the conditions will not improve so the poverty rates will not either.

    But I think you have made up your mind already, much like the DWP and their answer to this crises. They are spending £95b so they are taking it seriously. That is a statement, not a plan or a reason to show that they actually are taking it seriously.

    As for your claim that he has unpaid interns working for him, are you aware that his work is unpaid as well? Now I agree that the UN should be paying their interns, but I fail to see how this affects the outcome of the report.

    Bringing this back to Brexit, even if you disagree with his conclusion you cannot argue to that UK has child poverty at the same levels of other countries and making their economy worse will improve this. Add to it the decisions by the government since 2010 on welfare that has increased the use of food banks (I notice you have not disputed that the use of food banks or that their use is on the rise, only that it is a way to show people care - much like JRM who called them inspirational or something like that) the lesson should be this is a crises in waiting. You seem to again want to comment not on the substance but to discredit the author. That solves nothing if you cannot prove that his findings are wrong and findings are not what you see as his agenda, before you tell me about his political ideology or agenda again.

    As for Irish food banks, I fail to see the relevance to Brexit.


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    #9612
    Jamiekelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭Jamiekelly


    ThePanjandrum wrote: »
    May and her coterie hated Trump. He was looked on them as not being one of them. The Tory hierarchy was always more taken by Clinton (male and female) and by the deity Obama. But then, a European survey claimed that from its policies and pronouncements by the hierarcht, the Tory Party ranked left of centre in European terms.

    Care to quote or give a link to that European survey or are you just making things up?


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    #9613
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,965 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    According to Rory Stewart, Boris Johnson reassured him that he would not pursue a No Deal Brexit, so hearing Boris say that he's for Brexit regardless of a deal is not going down well. Stewart says he would not join the Cabinet if Boris becomes PM. I think this could be where the battle lines are drawn.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #9614
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    bnt wrote: »
    According to Rory Stewart, Boris Johnson reassured him that he would not pursue a No Deal Brexit, so hearing Boris say that he's for Brexit regardless of a deal is not going down well. Stewart says he would not join the Cabinet if Boris becomes PM. I think this could be where the battle lines are drawn.


    Is this one of those times where you have to really read what he said, he will not pursue no-deal but if it happens Boris Johnson will be okay with it? I think it is more likely that he is lying once again to win the vote from the party members. But as many have said before, if this is the case then there is nothing to change the arithmetic in parliament and that is not going to change.


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    #9615
    cml387
    Registered Users Posts: 8,389 ✭✭✭cml387


    Remember Boris wrote two essays before the referendum, more or less for himself.One was arguing logically for remaining in, one rather more emotionally for leave.
    He seems to be someone who can hold opposing viewpoints in his head, and in the end go for the option that is best for Boris.


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    #9616
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,912 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    I think Boris Johnson is far too clever to take on the poisoned chalice right now. Nothing will change and a No Deal will be totally rejected by Parliament which is sovereign. Could happen by default though, but I doubt it. Disaster in the making and everyone knows it by now.

    He might hold back at the last minute and wait until the next incumbent gets flayed alive, and then bounce back in when the dust has settled.

    Pity Rory Stewart is not a front runner. He has brains, and great negotiating skills. But the Tories do not want someone like him it seems.

    But sure what do I know anyway.


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    #9617
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Pity Rory Stewart is not a front runner.


    The front runner seldom wins.


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    #9618
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 23,863 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »

    But sure what do I know anyway.

    As much as anyone who professes to know what will happen in UK politics I daresay.


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    #9619
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't think he is all that clever - just ambitious.
    If he doesn't go for it now he leaves open the possibility of a change in Labour leadership giving a comfortable Labour majority after the next election. The Tories could be on opposition for years - would he give up his opportunity to be Prime Minister now and deliver some form of Brexit vs being an opposition leader once the drama of Brexit is past?

    I think it is now or never for Boris.


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    #9620
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Deleted User wrote: »
    would he give up his opportunity to be Prime Minister now and deliver some form of Brexit vs being an opposition leader once the drama of Brexit is past?


    Clearly he would not, but that just shows that he is not very bright.

    At the moment, Cameron and May are vying for most incompetent PM in a hundred years, but Thatcher is still the most hated with Blair not far behind.

    If Boris brings about Brexit, he wil eclipse them all.


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    #9621
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,912 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    The front runner seldom wins.

    Ah you know what I mean, BJ is top dog with the bookies, everyone else is far down the pecking order. But stranger things have happened, look at Theresa May for example, where the heck did she come from! I think BJ backed out and there was some night of the long knives involving Gove.

    Now there's a dark horse, watch him.


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    #9622
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,912 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't think he is all that clever - just ambitious.
    If he doesn't go for it now he leaves open the possibility of a change in Labour leadership giving a comfortable Labour majority after the next election. The Tories could be on opposition for years - would he give up his opportunity to be Prime Minister now and deliver some form of Brexit vs being an opposition leader once the drama of Brexit is past?

    I think it is now or never for Boris.

    But what can he do as PM other than crash out as promised (empty promise IMV but anyway).

    Surely Parliament would erupt and there would be some sort of legal challenge to a peremptory No Deal without Parliamentary approval. Could be interesting. But I think BJ is full of hot air on his zipwire anyway.


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    #9623
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Enzokk wrote: »
    As for Irish food banks, I fail to see the relevance to Brexit.
    Maybe it's because one fifth of the meals given out by UK food banks are in NI.


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    #9624
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Maybe it's because one fifth of the meals given out by UK food banks are in NI.

    Considering NI has only 2% of the UK population, that sounds really bad.


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    #9625
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    But what can he do as PM other than crash out as promised (empty promise IMV but anyway).

    Surely Parliament would erupt and there would be some sort of legal challenge to a peremptory No Deal without Parliamentary approval. Could be interesting. But I think BJ is full of hot air on his zipwire anyway.
    What he can do is secondary to being PM.
    Nothing else matters.


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    #9626
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I put 20 quid on Rory Stewart.

    Seems like the best of a truly awful bunch.the Tory's have to be looking at who can repair the party (and country) but mainly party. The rise of the Brexit party must be truly terrifying for the 1922 committee.


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    #9627
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Considering NI has only 2% of the UK population, that sounds really bad.


    Given the Cash for Ash business, you have to wonder if this is just theft.


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    #9628
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users Posts: 17,029 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I put 20 quid on Rory Stewart.

    Seems like the best of a truly awful bunch.

    He actually looks like the villain in a James Bond film


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    #9629
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,668 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    He actually looks like the villain in a James Bond film

    Mod: This isn't constructive. No more please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #9630
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,897 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Could they just end the drama by letting all the most vocal Brexiteers take control of the British government? Watch them then discredit themselves out of existence.
    Sounds good, apart from the excess deaths caused by the inevitable economic downturn.


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    #9631
    bilston
    Registered Users Posts: 17,761 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    What is the point in the likes of Matt Hancock and Esther McVeigh entering this race?

    The only way Johnson can be stopped is if the Tory MPs back someone like Dominic Rabb over him. They will be fighting for the same MPs.

    Crazy how so few people (mostly people over the age of 60) will get to decide the future of the UK.


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