Brexit discussion thread VIII (Please read OP before posting)

Enzokk

54&56 wrote: »

If somehow a sensible One Nation Remainer can't win Gove is by far the least worst Brexiteer alternative.

Have you read his views on the Good Friday Agreement and does this not worry you at all? I would be careful of someone who when it came down to it and the PM position was on offer decided to turn on his ally at the first opportunity. I think he is just as dangerous as Johnson to be honest.

Michael Gove a ‘fanatic’ who would damage peace process

54and56

bilston wrote: »

What is the point in the likes of Matt Hancock and Esther McVeigh entering this race?

Three obvious reasons spring to mind immediately:-

1. It allows them to make a statement about their own ambition.

2. It increases their profile FOC which won't do them any harm at either re-election time or post their career as an MP e.g. "I'd like to introduce tonight's speaker/guest/moderator etc etc the former Prime Ministerial candidate Esther McVeigh "

3. It gives them political capital and leverage to secure a senior role in the winners cabinet providing they get the timing of when they drop out of the race, back the eventual winner and ask their supporters to throw their weight behind (name of winner) whilst it will be of value to the eventual winner.

Enzokk

CelticRambler wrote: »

First indications are that there isn't anywhere near enough of a gain for any of the far-right parties to form a bloc with EU-shaping influence, and it would certainly be a difficult sell for the Brexit Party in particular to go back to their electorate and say "actually, maybe not doing Brexit isn't such a bad idea after all ..."

Until those MEPs realize how much money there is to be made from being in power that is.

Austrian government collapses as far right leader caught in video sting

Austria raced on Saturday toward a snap election as Chancellor Sebastian Kurz pulled the plug on his coalition with the far right after its leader was caught on video offering to fix state contracts with a woman posing as a Russian oligarch’s niece.

The far-right Freedom Party’s Heinz-Christian Strache resigned as vice chancellor and party leader after the video was released by two German news organizations. He acknowledged that the video was “catastrophic” but denied breaking the law.

I doubt the likes of Yaxley-Lennon has gone into politics for some big idea. The same is true of Farage, it just turns out that the biases they hold and the easiest way to build up support is tied together. It is what comes after that is a problem and why you see those parties struggling to sustain support I think. It is easy to shout how bad it is but when you are put in position to fix it but you don't, voters will notice.

I think that is why you see a flatline in support for those parties right now, but in the UK the Brexit Party was able to focus on betrayal which the other far right parties could not.

Water John

AfD would be the right wing in Germany. They did not poll as well as expected.

Enzokk

Water John wrote: »

AfD would be the right wing in Germany. They did not poll as well as expected.

Let's hope that they didn't make any gains. The one thing the EU doesn't need is to have an emboldened media in the UK on how the far right is on the march and another reason to leave.

My observation was more of a hypothetical than what is happening right now as well. What I find interesting is that the media in the UK seems to ignore the big red sign that UKIP and the Brexit Party is far right. Maybe their owners and editors do not want to engage with the idea that they harbor some sympathy with those views so they want to ignore that.

This article is an example of this. It totally ignores the UK within the article and the rise of the nationalist and populist UKIP among the other parties that share the same outlook. I think this is because most people that do not share those views would consider those EU parties as racist but they are careful not to put UKIP or Farage (and his new party, which is just UKIP reborn) in the same bracket for some reason.

Joe_ Public

Enzokk wrote: »

Let's hope that they didn't make any gains. The one thing the EU doesn't need is to have an emboldened media in the UK on how the far right is on the march and another reason to leave.

My observation was more of a hypothetical than what is happening right now as well. What I find interesting is that the media in the UK seems to ignore the big red sign that UKIP and the Brexit Party is far right. Maybe their owners and editors do not want to engage with the idea that they harbor some sympathy with those views so they want to ignore that.

This article is an example of this. It totally ignores the UK within the article and the rise of the nationalist and populist UKIP among the other parties that share the same outlook. I think this is because most people that do not share those views would consider those EU parties as racist but they are careful not to put UKIP or Farage (and his new party, which is just UKIP reborn) in the same bracket for some reason.

As far as i'm aware Farage is not associated with the Salvini pan-anti-EU alliance so isn't relevant to the context of that article. You may well have a point in general, though. Can't say i haven't read a glut of articles about the rise of the far right in the UK, but then I tend to be very selectively left-wing in my choice of reading material so you'd expect that.

Water John

The EPP look like being the biggest group in Parliament;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2019/may/26/eu-election-results-2019-across-europe

Joe_ Public

With the early projections its looking quite positive for the liberal/green/remain side of the equation across the continent. Some far right gains but likely not as many as anticipated/feared. Some Tories saying they might be looking at zero seats or just the 1 at best.

Enzokk

Joe_ Public wrote: »

As far as i'm aware Farage is not associated with the Salvini pan-anti-EU alliance so isn't relevant to the context of that article. You may well have a point in general, though. Can't say i haven't read a glut of articles about the rise of the far right in the UK, but then I tend to be very selectively left-wing in my choice of reading material so you'd expect that.

You could be right, but why list the AFD in the map about nationalist parties when they share a lot of their ideals with Farage and both fell under the EFDD in the current EU Parliament? So they are selective when it suits them on what to include. I don't think anyone will deny that Brexit Party is nationalist so at the very least their grouping should have been mentioned as well as it bolsters the argument of the article on how nationalist parties will do in the EU, not just one specific fragment of nationalism.

lawred2

I've been away for a while and there's probably no answer to this question but what exactly was the point of TM holding out (brazening out) this far to leave now?

I don't get it.

Christy42

lawred2 wrote: »

I've been away for a while and there's probably no answer to this question but what exactly was the point of TM holding out (brazening out) this far to leave now?

I don't get it.

They were changing their rules to kick her out if she didn't leave by June 10th. Leaving as a failure is one thing but at least don't make them kick you out.

Joe_ Public

Enzokk wrote: »

You could be right, but why list the AFD in the map about nationalist parties when they share a lot of their ideals with Farage and both fell under the EFDD in the current EU Parliament? So they are selective when it suits them on what to include. I don't think anyone will deny that Brexit Party is nationalist so at the very least their grouping should have been mentioned as well as it bolsters the argument of the article on how nationalist parties will do in the EU, not just one specific fragment of nationalism.

Well, the AfD is part of the Salvini alliance grouping whereas Farage is not and doesn't seem to have any interest in it at present. But I'm not dissing the point you are making in a general sense. I remember a piece the intellectual brexiteer John Gray wrote in the Spectator a couple of months back in which he castigated remainers like Fintan O'Toole for apparently failing to point out in their pro-EU diatribes that the europe they were desperate to cling to was being poisoned by extremists while the UK, in contrast, remained a monument to centrist moderation. I would think that is a view quite commonly shared among Gray's fellow brexit travellers.

lawred2

Christy42 wrote: »

They were changing their rules to kick her out if she didn't leave by June 10th. Leaving as a failure is one thing but at least don't make them kick you out.

I'd have let them. She's endured their guttersniping and backstabbing long enough.. can't see how changing those rules would be anything other than a PR disaster for the Tories.

She's now left in such pathetic circumstances.

Capt'n Midnight

lawred2 wrote: »

I've been away for a while and there's probably no answer to this question but what exactly was the point of TM holding out (brazening out) this far to leave now?

I don't get it.

Gordon Brown served for 2 years, 319 days.

May passes this next week.
And a day later passes the The Duke of Wellington on the High Score table.


Her legacy as Home Secretary and PM can be summed up by Maggie
Where there is discord, may we bring harmony. Where there is error, may we bring truth. Where there is doubt, may we bring faith. And where there is despair, may we bring hope.
- except May went out of her way to do the opposite with her Red Lines and giving into the ERG & co on the off chance they'd support her , while presuming on the support of those who were only in the same party as the ERG thanks to FPTP.

Enzokk

Joe_ Public wrote: »

Well, the AfD is part of the Salvini alliance grouping whereas Farage is not and doesn't seem to have any interest in it at present. But I'm not dissing the point you are making in a general sense. I remember a piece the intellectual brexiteer John Gray wrote in the Spectator a couple of months back in which he castigated remainers like Fintan O'Toole for apparently failing to point out in their pro-EU diatribes that the europe they were desperate to cling to was being poisoned by extremists while the UK, in contrast, remained a monument to centrist moderation. I would think that is a view quite commonly shared among Gray's fellow brexit travellers.

I understand that you are just making observations the same way as I am, it is just something I find interesting. I will look at the coverage tonight to see whether Farage and his party is mentioned among the rise or fall of the far right and see if it is just my bias clouding my judgement or if there is something to this.

Already there was mention on Sky about Marine Le Pen doing well and this being a springboard to a 2022 election bid again, yet we have the following disputing this.

https://twitter.com/NinaDSchick/status/1132741944617177089

https://twitter.com/NinaDSchick/status/1132742645246287872

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1132720377023610888

https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1132720381184434176

As with the Brexit Party I fear there will be those that will want to shape this as a victory, yet when you look at where they were in 2014 and you would assume that not a lot has changed for the people in the EU as they still face crises home and abroad it would have emboldened those parties. I hope their inaction of actually delivering anything will start to bite them.

I mean really, has anyone ever asked Farage what he has delivered in his 20 years in the EU parliament for his voters?

Water John

Sky News indicating vote is well up in London. This is good news for the Lib Dems. Lb had 4 of the 8 seats there but are worried they might be wiped out.

Akrasia

BBC news are streaming the brexitcast podcast on their BBC News HD tv channel right now. Its horrifying how bad their attitude is. Its mostly sneering towards the EU and making awful jokes and pretending that the Irish are worried that the EU will fold and sell out Ireland if the new Tory leader threatens a No Deal exit but 'actually means it this time'

Awful stuff. The once respectable BBC news department have fallen into the dregs of media reporting, alongside the telegraph and daily mail

Enzokk

Water John wrote: »

Sky News indicating vote is well up in London. This is good news for the Lib Dems. Lb had 4 of the 8 seats there but are worried they might be wiped out.

That would be a shame, there are some great Labour MEPs, like Seb Dance, that has nothing to do with Corbyn and his desire to leave the EU.

Enzokk

Akrasia wrote: »

BBC news are streaming the brexitcast podcast on their BBC News HD tv channel right now. Its horrifying how bad their attitude is. Its mostly sneering towards the EU and making awful jokes and pretending that the Irish are worried that the EU will fold and sell out Ireland if the new Tory leader threatens a No Deal exit but 'actually means it this time'

Awful stuff. The once respectable BBC news department have fallen into the dregs of media reporting, alongside the telegraph and daily mail

That won viewers podcast of the year. I have complained enough about Brexitcast, they are somewhat schizophrenic in that they constantly tell you what is happening, the EU is telling the UK what is and isn't going to happen, and then they tell you that while this is happening right now it will change at the last minute because that is what the EU does. It is like they cannot get past their own views and see the woods for the trees.

devnull

Akrasia wrote: »

BBC news are streaming the brexitcast podcast on their BBC News HD tv channel right now. Its horrifying how bad their attitude is. Its mostly sneering towards the EU and making awful jokes and pretending that the Irish are worried that the EU will fold and sell out Ireland if the new Tory leader threatens a No Deal exit but 'actually means it this time'

Awful stuff. The once respectable BBC news department have fallen into the dregs of media reporting, alongside the telegraph and daily mail

Turn over to another channel, if you're interested in the UK, Sky News, check their website for a live stream if you can't get it any other way, it's been far more balanced and had a piece on earlier about people who were denied their vote.

The BBC is pathetic and would be my last choice.

Akrasia

Enzokk wrote: »

That would be a shame, there are some great Labour MEPs, like Seb Dance, that has nothing to do with Corbyn and his desire to leave the EU.

Never heard of Seb Dance, but have heard of Nigel Farage. Maybe the pro european MEPs need to be more pro active in challenging the misinformation and lies propagated by the likes of Farage.

listermint

Akrasia wrote: »

Never heard of Seb Dance, but have heard of Nigel Farage. Maybe the pro european MEPs need to be more pro active in challenging the misinformation and lies propagated by the likes of Farage.

Em they are.

And seb dance has been all over the paper for years.

He's the guy that held the lying sign in the parliament pointing at farage.


I suspect you need to widen your news sources

Enzokk

Akrasia wrote: »

Never heard of Seb Dance, but have heard of Nigel Farage. Maybe the pro european MEPs need to be more pro active in challenging the misinformation and lies propagated by the likes of Farage.

I think that is a problem with the EU in that voters may not appreciate the importance of what their votes mean. Here is an extract of what Wikipedia has on his work in the EU Parliament.

On entering the European Parliament, he was appointed to the European Parliament Committee on the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety, responsible for a wide range of policy areas including air and water pollution, waste management, and climate change.

He also sits on the European Parliament Committee on Development, overseeing the spending commitments and priorities of the EU's development budget.

Dance was appointed as a shadow rapporteur for the revision of the National Emissions Ceiling Directive (NECD), which aims to improve levels of air quality by regulating the emissions of harmful pollutants. This is particularly important issue for London, where over 3,000 people are dying prematurely each year as a result of exposure to poor air quality.[2] He became the S&D spokesperson on air quality following his appointment as a Shadow Rapporteur on the NECD.

Following the "Dieselgate" scandal involving the use of so-called cheat devices in Volkswagen cars the European Parliament voted to set up a committee of inquiry to look into the scandal, the extent to which EU institutions acted on knowledge of the presence of software to limit emission abatement technology in the automotive industry and to provide recommendations on how to prevent a similar scandal in the future. He was appointed by his group colleagues in the Committee to be the Co-Ordinator for the S&D group on the committee, meaning he chairs the delegation of S&D MEPs in the committee and is the group's spokesperson on the committee.

He is also a shadow rapporteur on a proposal for an integrated approach to tackle the link between conflict and the trade of minerals extracted from affected areas.

And to ensure you will remember him, I am sure you have seen this before,

Akrasia

devnull wrote: »

Turn over to another channel, if you're interested in the UK, Sky News, check their website for a live stream if you can't get it any other way, it's been far more balanced and had a piece on earlier about people who were denied their vote.

The BBC is pathetic and would be my last choice.

Done that now. I feel dirty on Rupert Murdoch's channel but i just saw a bbc flash graphic saying that the election uses proportional representation without explaining the closed party list system. The GB version of PR is just FPTP but with parties instead of candidates. When i turned on Sky they actually talked about the way the votes are distributed and disassociated it with a proper PR system. BBC News are worse than Sky News under a tory Government

Headshot

Enzokk wrote: »

That would be a shame, there are some great Labour MEPs, like Seb Dance, that has nothing to do with Corbyn and his desire to leave the EU.

Unfortunately being anyway affiliated with Corbyn's Labour will do this.

Hopefully these disastrous results for Labour will finally put the nail in the coffin of Corbyn

Enzokk

Sky News is live on Youtube for anyone that wants to watch some coverage. Here is a link, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrX6ktLg8WQ

They have almost gone over to Steven Yaxley-Lennon doing some speech when it seems like he has very little chance to win a seat, but they have not spoken to one Libdem or Green Party members on how well they have done. Is it any wonder why the UK is having a problem amplifying the voices from the right.

Headshot

Akrasia wrote: »

Done that now. I feel dirty on Rupert Murdoch's channel but i just saw a bbc flash graphic saying that the election uses proportional representation without explaining the closed party list system. The GB version of PR is just FPTP but with parties instead of candidates. When i turned on Sky they actually talked about the way the votes are distributed and disassociated it with a proper PR system. BBC News are worse than Sky News under a tory Government

I pretty sure Rupert is gone now

Enzokk

Akrasia wrote: »

Done that now. I feel dirty on Rupert Murdoch's channel but i just saw a bbc flash graphic saying that the election uses proportional representation without explaining the closed party list system. The GB version of PR is just FPTP but with parties instead of candidates. When i turned on Sky they actually talked about the way the votes are distributed and disassociated it with a proper PR system. BBC News are worse than Sky News under a tory Government

They are better than the BBC I think, but as my criticism above states they are not above following the populist route somewhat as well. You can feel assured that Murdoch doesn't own Sky any longer, they were sold to Comcast in October 2018.

Akrasia

Headshot wrote: »

I pretty sure Rupert is gone now

Oh, you're right, i missed that. Last september Sky were bought by Comcast. I didn't know that happened.

Enzokk

Labour is taking a beating. You can follow this twitter account for results.

https://twitter.com/britainelects