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Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

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Comments

  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    cournioni wrote: »
    Some women have a lot to answer for, particularly when they use the line “women want control over their own bodies”, or “woman’s body, woman’s choice”. Sickening attitude.

    Ah so it's just women you have an issue with same as prior to the referendum


  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    cournioni wrote: »
    Some women have a lot to answer for, particularly when they use the line “women want control over their own bodies”, or “woman’s body, woman’s choice”. Sickening attitude.

    Women have something to answer for because you don’t like a decision they have made?


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Yeah, i mean imagine a woman wanting control over what happens to her body, shocking isnt it? :rolleyes:
    ... by killing another body inside of her? Yes it is.


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Women have something to answer for because you don’t like a decision they have made?
    Not all, only the ones with a similar attitude to yours.


  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    cournioni wrote: »
    ... by killing another body inside of her? Yes it is.

    That is their choice. Not yours.

    Get over it. If you don’t want an abortion personally then don’t have one. Don’t judge other women for wanting one.


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  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    cournioni wrote: »
    Not all, only the ones with a similar attitude to yours.

    I think you have a lot to answer for for your sickening want to control women, but anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,740 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    cournioni wrote: »
    ... by killing another body inside of her? Yes it is.

    You say it's a body i say it's a clump of cells, we both have our opinion.

    The country voted and the massive majority voted for abortion, i suggest you move to Alabama or time travel back to the 1950's if the result upsets you so much.


  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    And the divorce referendum will be passed also. Pregnancy and marriage is being assaulted. The fundamental unit on which society is built.

    You want people to be forced into a loveless marriage also?

    You sound like a right control freak.


  • Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Faugheen wrote: »
    You want people to be forced into a loveless marriage also?

    You sound like a right control freak.

    Yet according to the poster its the liberal left who want to control people


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Yes, yes and yes.


    You see no problem with trying to control another person?


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  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Faugheen wrote: »
    That is their choice. Not yours.

    Get over it. If you don’t want an abortion personally then don’t have one. Don’t judge other women for wanting one.
    Another disgusting post, given the topic of conversation nobody should ever be told to “get over it”. Almost as disgusting as the cheers around Dublin castle last year.

    Taking another persons life should never be an acceptable choice.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    You see no problem with trying to control another person?

    People should have as much freedom as possible. That should not be extended to taking another human life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭mvl


    Caledonia wrote: »
    It does seem - perhaps in light of referendum and delivering change - the doctor involved jumped the gun. They weren’t examined by a second doctor even though papers signed. That’s fine technically but as mother says she raised the syndrome after her own research maybe the second doctor would have said ‘let’s pause here’; this baby is much wanted; they are informed, there is a chance. It would have balanced bias.

    I think the second paragraph here about not doing anything differently is v strange.

    From Sunday Times:
    The couple say they were asked to attend a consultation at the hospital on April 4 at which they were told “some normal cells and abnormal cells” had been found in samples taken from the foetus, and claim they were not properly advised at that point that the baby had been healthy.

    Haughey said the couple had been advised at the final meeting in April that the hospital would not have done anything differently, as it believed the chances of the baby being born healthy were still negligible.

    And the article in Irish Times suggests the couple asked for an amnio and they were told no need :(
    The couple say they were “actively” told not to wait and that there was no need for amniocentesis - a further test that can be done at a slightly later stage in the pregnancy. Amniocentesis tests cells directly from the foetus.

    If this is the case, this is caused by an existing problem in the medical system that would take many years to fix ... It won't be fixed by humans I am afraid, humans (in medical system too) are prone to error.
    I think we would need to wait for AI to have more certainty of what's going on.


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Faugheen wrote: »
    I think you have a lot to answer for for your sickening want to control women, but anyway.
    You’d rather a baby be killed rather than tell a woman not to kill it. Lovely.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    A woman in a crisis pregnancy needs to be helped.


    Your idea if help is to incarcerate her and force her to remain pregnant against her will. That's a serious level of abuse against the woman. Yet you are ok with it. Strange set of morals occupying your head .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    You say it's a body i say it's a clump of cells, we both have our opinion.


    At 15 weeks it is not just cells. Maybe you should do some research. Its not about opinions its about fact. And the fact is i voted for abortion and in this instance that vote killed a healthy person.


  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    cournioni wrote: »
    Another disgusting post, given the topic of conversation nobody should ever be told to “get over it”. Almost as disgusting as the cheers around Dublin castle last year.

    Taking another persons life should never be an acceptable choice.

    This is a foetus which 12 weeks old or younger in vast majority of unwanted pregnancies.

    You want to control women because you're a 'taxpayer'. You were able to do that until a year ago because a democratically held referendum was held and passed my a massive majority. So yes, get over it because some people don't want to continue with a pregnancy.

    If you want to continue with a pregnancy. Do so, that is your right and your choice.

    You need to respect other people's right to do otherwise because we voted as a country to allow them to do so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Make it a criminal offense for an Irish woman to have an abortion anywhere.


    So if they are living here but not Irish they can an abortion? Won't work btw.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    medical procedure went wrong, based on erroneous judgement/data

    common, lessons can be learned

    no reason to relitigate anything. its a process.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cournioni wrote:
    A woman can do what she wants with her own body, not the body of the baby in it.


    The pregnancy whilst it exists is part of her body, your attitude is one of extreme ignorance tbh.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Faugheen wrote:
    That is their choice. Not yours.

    What if a woman wanted an abortion at 38 weeks? Should that also be her choice?

    I know that question is facetious but it is made to show how not black and white your statement is.

    I agree with abortion as a medical option for serious circumstances.
    Faugheen wrote:
    Get over it. If you don’t want an abortion personally then don’t have one. Don’t judge other women for wanting one.

    Get over it!

    Ok you realise that the woman in this instance was not given a choice yes?

    You realise that human error forced her to have an unwanted abortion.

    Dont confuse this story with your own opinions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Nobelium wrote:
    That should not be extended to taking another human life.


    Define when life occurs?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cournioni wrote:
    Taking another persons life should never be an acceptable choice.


    A foetus is not a person.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,740 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    The pregnancy whilst it exists is part of her body, your attitude is one of extreme ignorance tbh.

    So is cancer


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    Mr.H wrote:
    Ok you realise that the woman in this instance was not given a choice yes?
    She was forced to have an abortion?
    Mr.H wrote:
    You realise that human error forced her to have an unwanted abortion.

    Again, forced?


  • Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    Mr.H wrote: »
    What if a woman wanted an abortion at 38 weeks? Should that also be her choice?

    I know that question is facetious but it is made to show how not black and white your statement is.

    I agree with abortion as a medical option for serious circumstances.

    Our laws don't allow for that. Our laws don't allow for abortions past the point which babies can survive outside of the womb. So your point is irrelevant.
    Mr.H wrote: »
    Get over it!

    Ok you realise that the woman in this instance was not given a choice yes?

    You realise that human error forced her to have an unwanted abortion.

    Dont confuse this story with your own opinions.

    Proof that this woman was 'forced' into having an abortion please.

    She was given information and made a choice based on that information. She didn't have to if she didn't want to. Ultimately she made the decision on what was misinformation which is a completely difficult matter and for you to lie and politicise that tells me how little you actually care about the couple involved in this scenario.

    Nobody was 'forced' into anything here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    medical procedure went wrong, based on erroneous judgement/data

    common, lessons can be learned

    no reason to relitigate anything. its a process.

    How many healthy babies need to be aborted for them to finalise their process?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    I don't think that carries much weight. Mere potential is a weak threshold. If one of us is a woman and the other a man, there is a potential baby between us (I'm not flirting, you are). Potentialiaty is just about what could arise in the future. It can't be something to get overly precious about.


    https://www.livescience.com/41398-baby-awareness.html

    I think you're straining to defend a point that is completely incorrect.
    You're taking the idea of potential and going off on a tangent.

    Glazers Out!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    How many healthy babies need to be aborted for them to finalise their process?


    i dont recognise your use of the term "healthy baby" perhaps you need to look at that

    otherwise, i suppose the answer is "as many as it takes"


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    cournioni wrote: »
    Some women have a lot to answer for, particularly when they use the line “women want control over their own bodies”, or “woman’s body, woman’s choice”. Sickening attitude.
    cournioni wrote: »
    I’m Irish and I pay tax which funds these “procedures” (aka killings). Of course it’s my business. I disagree with killings wholeheartedly, as should any sane being.

    I find your attitude towards life sickening to be honest.
    cournioni wrote: »
    Another disgusting post, given the topic of conversation nobody should ever be told to “get over it”. Almost as disgusting as the cheers around Dublin castle last year.

    Taking another persons life should never be an acceptable choice.
    cournioni wrote: »
    Not all, only the ones with a similar attitude to yours.


    You need to get a grip of yourself. Constantly attacking other posters with your own moral compass.

    Unfortunately for you and your moral compass the constitutional ban on abortion was lifted by popular vote. Move on.

    People die in hospitals every day in every country because of wrong decisions/wrong scan results/wrong diagnosis. It wasn't a surprise that the pro-life lunatics jumped on this. We have moved far and away from putting all of this in religious orders hands thank fúck. They had their own way of doing things that certainly wasnt morally right.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    STB. wrote: »
    You need to get a grip of yourself. Constantly attacking other posters with your own moral compass.

    Unfortunately for you and your moral compass the constitutional ban on abortion was lifted by popular vote. Move on.

    People die in hospitals every day in every country because of wrong decisions/wrong scan results/wrong diagnosis. It wasn't a surprise that the pro-life lunatics jumped on this. We have moved far and away from putting all of this in religious orders hands thank fúck. They had their own way of doing things that certainly wasnt morally right.

    You are the one branding people lunatics. There are lots of people who are anti abortion that are also not religious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    You are the one branding people lunatics. There are lots of people who are anti abortion that are also not religious.


    Lunatics who refuse to accept a democratic decision. Go judge somewhere else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭Caledonia


    See the parents are on about going to the DPP and the Attorney General because let’s face it - it’s not just a medical procedure. We can’t be that sanguine about it. They are facing the enormity of what they have lost.
    medical procedure went wrong, based on erroneous judgement/data

    common, lessons can be learned

    no reason to relitigate anything. its a process.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    STB. wrote: »
    Lunatics who refuse to accept a democratic decision.

    In a democracy dissent is supposed to be encouraged.
    You can accept a decision whilst disagreeing with it.

    This is the main problem with people who aligned themselves with the repeal movement, a childish belief that all opinions divergent from their own being cast into some sort of abyss from where they should never be heard again.

    If the vote had gone the other way would the repeal movement have accepted it and never raised it again?

    Glazers Out!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    Faugheen wrote:
    Our laws don't allow for that. Our laws don't allow for abortions past the point which babies can survive outside of the womb. So your point is irrelevant.


    Well that is completely false. There is a small but real chance that a baby born before 20 weeks can live. In fact the youngest born was only 13 weeks which is 2 weeks younger than the one here.

    Have you any kids? You dont need to answer as it is a personal question. But one that you can think about yourself. Have you been for a 9 week scan, 12 week scan, 15 week scan, 20 week scan and so on. If you have then you do see when they start to form. I have a scan from 15 weeks and while it us blurry you can actually see some detail of my son in it. Its crazy how he was defined so early on and looks the exact same. The reason i ask is because quiet often people talk about stuff they know absolutely nothing about and purely because its popular opinion.

    Yes forced. The couple. Not just the woman, were told that their child would likely die very early on if it were born. The option was to go through with pregnancy and leave their child suffer for what little life they had, or have an abortion. Yes that is forcing someones decision. They were given the wrong information and if the laws didnt change they would have not been given the option. A healthy baby would have lived.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    nullzero wrote: »
    In a democracy dissent is supposed to be encouraged.
    You can accept a decision whilst disagreeing with it.

    This is the main problem with people who aligned themselves with the repeal movement, a childish belief that all opinions divergent from their own being cast into some sort of abyss from where they should never be heard again.

    If the vote had gone the other way would the repeal movement have accepted it and never raised it again?


    In a democracy, democratic decisions are meant to be respected. This vote overturned the previous in situ arrangements.

    Grasp all you want at straws.

    We certainly know how the democratic vote was respected by the minority.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    You are the one branding people lunatics. There are lots of people who are anti abortion that are also not religious.

    You can be anti abortion all you want, you just can’t interfere in anyone else’s choices.

    I fundementally disagree with pretty much everything you’ve posted on this thread, you a citizen of equal status as me, so why should I be forced to live my life arrested by your morals?
    Especially when I’m not trying to force mine on you?
    Your opinion is not superior to mine. Particularly when it concerns my own womb.

    There will be no mandatory abortions.
    You can continue to live your life without having one and thinking it’s wrong.
    You just don’t get to impose that view on anyone else any more.

    Abortion has always been in Ireland, abortion will always be in Ireland.
    Banning it doesn’t stop it from happening, so get off your moral high horse and respect that there are women and couples out there today in awful & tragic circumstances that you will never understand that will NEED that choice.
    And maybe be a bit more grateful that it’s a choice you don’t need yourself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭Caledonia


    STB. wrote: »

    People die in hospitals every day in every country because of wrong decisions/wrong scan results/wrong diagnosis.

    They might die but they are NOT actively terminated.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    STB. wrote: »
    In democracy, democratic decisions are meant to be respected.


    Grasp all you want at straws.

    How am I grasping at straws?

    Could you address what I said please?
    If Ireland had voted no should people on the yes side have never raised the issue again?

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Mr.H wrote: »
    Well that is completely false. There is a small but real chance that a baby born before 20 weeks can live. In fact the youngest born was only 13 weeks which is 2 weeks younger than the one here.

    Have you any kids? You dont need to answer as it is a personal question. But one that you can think about yourself. Have you been for a 9 week scan, 12 week scan, 15 week scan, 20 week scan and so on. If you have then you do see when they start to form. I have a scan from 15 weeks and while it us blurry you can actually see some detail of my son in it. Its crazy how he was defined so early on and looks the exact same. The reason i ask is because quiet often people talk about stuff they know absolutely nothing about and purely because its popular opinion.

    Yes forced. The couple. Not just the woman, were told that their child would likely die very early on if it were born. The option was to go through with pregnancy and leave their child suffer for what little life they had, or have an abortion. Yes that is forcing someones decision. They were given the wrong information and if the laws didnt change they would have not been given the option. A healthy baby would have lived.

    Link to the baby born alive at 13 weeks please? I believe the world record is held by a Canadian baby who was born at 21 weeks.
    I wouldn’t say there’s a ‘real’ chance babies born at 20 weeks can live when the world record for the most premature baby is 21 weeks.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    STB. wrote: »
    In a democracy, democratic decisions are meant to be respected. This vote overturned the previous in situ arrangements.

    Grasp all you want at straws.

    We certainly know how the democratic vote was respected by the minority.

    You do realise that the eighth ammendment was something that was introduced to the constitution by means of a referendum in 1983 right?

    According to your logic that decision should have been respected and never challenged.

    Do you have any idea what your talking about?

    You can prove anything with facts...

    Glazers Out!



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,188 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    You are the one branding people lunatics. There are lots of people who are anti abortion that are also not religious.

    Were you not the one suggesting women be sectioned?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    nullzero wrote: »
    How am I grasping at straws?

    Could you address what I said please?
    If Ireland had voted no should people on the yes side have never raised the issue again?


    You are grasping at straws because you are using words like dissent in democracy whilst not having the cop on to realise that this is the very reason the referendum was raised to change something that the vast majority disagreed with in the first instance.

    That dissent has resulted in two thirds of the country voting in favour of repealing the 8th. Respect the democratic decision please.

    Even after the democracy had spoken, there were stupid legal challenges, graspers like yourself.
    nullzero wrote: »
    You do realise that the eighth ammendment was something that was introduced to the constitution by means of a referendum in 1983 right?

    According to your logic that decision should have been respected and never challenged.

    Do you have any idea what your talking about?

    You can prove anything with facts...

    You do realise that it is no longer 1983, and that the 8th has been repealed by a democratic vote.

    I know what I am talking about and voted accordingly.

    Facts are that 75% agreed in Dublin and 66% nationwide.

    Its like talking to a simpleton.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    STB. wrote: »
    Lunatics who refuse to accept a democratic decision. Go judge somewhere else.

    Are you talking about remainers?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,691 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    STB. wrote: »
    You are grasping at straws because you are using words like dissent in democracy whilst not having the cop on to realise that this is the very reason the referendum was raised to change something that the vast majority disagreed with in the first instance.

    That dissent has resulted in two thirds of the country voting in favour of repealing the 8th. Respect the democratic decision please.

    Even after the democracy had spoken, there were stupid legal challenges, graspers like yourself.

    Do you propose that it should be a criminal offence to express opinions which do not agree with abortion?

    If not I have no idea what you're getting at.

    You have shown a complete lack of insight into how things work in a democracy, your argument was poor and now your nose is out of joint because you were pulled up on it, and surprise surprise you revert to snide comments.
    You have also failed to answer simple questions and instead have resorted to personal abuse.

    EDIT. The points I've raised are valid, your cognitive dissonance is astounding and as much as I'd love to take you to task on your frankly comical contribution here I have had to report your post for the comment you made comparing me to a simpleton, so I'm just going to let the moderators deal with this from here. If you can't be civil I'm not going to talk to you.

    Glazers Out!



  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    The pregnancy whilst it exists is part of her body, your attitude is one of extreme ignorance tbh.

    How many toes does the mother have while she is pregnant? Twenty? On the contrary, I think your attitude is extremely ignorant towards the baby tbh.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    cournioni wrote:
    How many toes does the mother have while she is pregnant? Twenty?


    Same as before she is pregnant 10 and the same after. Now the foetus depends on the stage of development. Any other stupid question you'd like to pose?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    nullzero wrote: »
    Do you propose that it should be a criminal offence to express opinions which do not agree with abortion?

    If not I have no idea what you're getting at.

    You have shown a complete lack of insight into how things work in a democracy, your argument was poor and now your nose is out of joint because you were pulled up on it, and surprise surprise you revert to snide comments.


    It is you that has shown a complete lack of respect or understanding for democratic decisions.

    Your pissed off because it didn't agree with your moral sensibilities. You'll have to get over that I am afraid.

    Like I said grasping at straws.
    cournioni wrote: »
    How many toes does the mother have while she is pregnant? Twenty? On the contrary, I think your attitude is extremely ignorant towards the baby tbh.

    Ignorant, disgusting. You don't have much of a vocabulary do you.

    Here's a sentence for you containing both. I think its disgusting that you don't wish to respect a democratic decision made by the people of Ireland and I think you are ignorant in your responses to posters here. Whoever's decision it was to allow you mod a forum with such an attitude needs to take a second look at the manner in which you respond to posters here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    STB. wrote: »
    It is you that has shown a complete lack of respect or understanding for democratic decisions.

    Your pissed off because it didn't agree with your moral sensibilities. You'll have to get over that I am afraid.

    Like I said grasping at straws.

    It's funny how the left defends democracy when it is in their favour but are utterly hostile towards it when it goes against.


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    STB. wrote: »
    You need to get a grip of yourself. Constantly attacking other posters with your own moral compass.

    Unfortunately for you and your moral compass the constitutional ban on abortion was lifted by popular vote. Move on.

    People die in hospitals every day in every country because of wrong decisions/wrong scan results/wrong diagnosis. It wasn't a surprise that the pro-life lunatics jumped on this. We have moved far and away from putting all of this in religious orders hands thank fúck. They had their own way of doing things that certainly wasnt morally right.
    That’s all fine and well, but my vote didn’t contribute towards the death of a viable baby, the “popular” one did. Then again, sheep don’t have to be all that clever.


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