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Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

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    #1622
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,169 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    not sure if this article was linked yet, from May last year

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/single-diagnostic-test-is-standard-practice-says-national-maternity-hospital-1.3896116
    The National Maternity Hospital says it follows standard practice in carrying out terminations where requested by parents following a single diagnostic test showing a fatal foetal anomaly. UK and international guidelines suggest confirmatory second-test results should first be obtained.

    The termination was carried out last March after an initial rapid prenatal test showed a woman’s baby had a chromosomal abnormality, though this was not seen on the ultrasound. Afterwards, the results of a second test came back normal.

    In the UK, the national screening programme recommends that where the rapid result indicates the baby may be affected by Edwards syndrome, and where the ultrasound is normal, “a culture result should be used to confirm the QF-PCR result prior to any decision being made regarding ongoing care or termination of the pregnancy”.

    Separately, the International Society of Ultrasound in Obstetrics and Gynaecology practice guidelines state that, in some settings, the use of QF-PCR has replaced the full karyotype.

    “However, inaccuracies of the rapid testing results (false positive or false negative) are reported occasionally. On this basis, abnormal rapid testing should be confirmed by metaphase culture or should be associated with ultrasound anomalies before making clinical decisions regarding continuation of the pregnancy.”

    and here
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/experts-to-be-involved-in-holles-street-termination-review-1.3898729
    The couple whose baby was terminated, who say they were told there was no need to confirm the diagnosis in a second test, have queried the lack of specific genetic involvement at the time of the termination decision.

    The couple say they were told by hospital staff there was no need to wait for the second test and that the matter was “black and white”. They say they were told there was “no hope” and that the next stage of testing “would make no difference”

    At a meeting last month with the obstetrician after the termination had been carried out, the couple says they were not told directly their baby was healthy but gleaned this information afterwards from the test results, which had been provided to them in an envelope.


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    #1623
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,169 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    has there been anything made of the abortion happening at 15 weeks at all, or is it a case of 'honest mistake'

    Relevant legislation:
    Condition likely to lead to death of foetus
    11. (1) A termination of pregnancy may be carried out in accordance with this section where
    2 medical practitioners, having examined the pregnant woman, are of the reasonable
    opinion formed in good faith that there is present a condition affecting the foetus that
    is likely to lead to the death of the foetus either before, or within 28 days of, birth.

    (2) Of the 2 medical practitioners referred to in subsection (1)—
    (a) one shall be an obstetrician, and
    (b) the other shall be a medical practitioner of a relevant specialty.

    (3) A termination of pregnancy shall not be carried out under this section unless each of
    the medical practitioners referred to in subsection (1) has certified his or her opinion
    as to the matters referred to in that subsection.

    (4) The termination of pregnancy to which the certification referred to in subsection (3)
    relates shall be carried out—
    (a) by the obstetrician referred to in subsection (2)(a), or
    (b) where the medical practitioner referred to in subsection (2)(b) is also an
    obstetrician, by that obstetrician or the obstetrician referred to in subsection (2)(a).




    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/dispute-delaying-abortion-investigation-goes-to-mediation-1.4136188
    The woman was seen by only one obstetrician, despite legislation saying she should be examined by two.


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    #1624
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,154 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    Relevant legislation:






    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/dispute-delaying-abortion-investigation-goes-to-mediation-1.4136188

    the legislation says (as you posted yourself)
    (a) one shall be an obstetrician, and
    (b) the other shall be a medical practitioner of a relevant specialty.

    there is no requirement for two obstetricians. the IT is wrong in that regard.


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    #1625
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,169 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hospitals-warned-they-must-ensure-legal-requirements-for-abortions-are-met-1.4092129
    Hospitals providing abortion services have been told to ensure they meet the legal requirements for carrying out lawful terminations of pregnancy and for notifying the Minister for Health when they have done so.

    The reminder was issued by HSE chief clinical officer Dr Colm Henry, at the request of the Department of Health, and sent to all providers of termination services in a letter, seen by The Irish Times, earlier this month.

    “Where the Act calls for more than one medical practitioner to be involved, it should be noted that it is the responsibility of each medical practitioner to examine the pregnant woman concerned in order to form a reasonable opinion in good faith and to certify that the termination may be carried out,”

    The hospital told the department last May it was correctly interpreting the Act and had appropriate policies, practices and procedures in place to ensure full compliance. It is understood the second doctor examined the woman’s test results and the hospital regards this as fulfilling the requirement in the legislation for her to be “examined”.

    Dr Henry has also reminded hospitals of the requirement to notify the Minister for each termination by returning a form within 28 days of the procedure.

    In the National Maternity Hospital case, two months elapsed from the time of the termination before the notification was submitted.


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    #1626
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hospitals-warned-they-must-ensure-legal-requirements-for-abortions-are-met-1.4092129

    And?


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    #1627
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,169 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    uptherebels wrote: »
    And?

    it is the responsibility of each medical practitioner to examine the pregnant woman concerned


    It is understood the second doctor examined the woman’s test results


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    #1628
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    it is the responsibility of each medical practitioner to examine the pregnant woman concerned


    It is understood the second doctor examined the woman’s test results

    The examination is to determine if there is grounds for an abortion after 12 weeks. The legislation doesn't say physical examination. As the grounds for the abortion was determined via tests, what examination do you think should have been carried out other than reviewing the tests results?


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    #1629
    Quantum Erasure
    Registered Users Posts: 8,169 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    uptherebels wrote: »
    what examination do you think should have been carried out other than reviewing the tests results?

    i've no opinion apart from what the department says
    The reminder was issued by HSE chief clinical officer Dr Colm Henry, at the request of the Department of Health, and sent to all providers of termination services in a letter, seen by The Irish Times, earlier this month.

    “Where the Act calls for more than one medical practitioner to be involved, it should be noted that it is the responsibility of each medical practitioner to examine the pregnant woman concerned in order to form a reasonable opinion in good faith and to certify that the termination may be carried out,”

    edit, yes i think there should have been a confirmatory test, whether that was an abnormality on the ultrasound, or the results of the secondary test, either way,


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    #1630
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    i've no opinion apart from what the department says


    edit, yes i think there should have been a confirmatory test, whether that was an abnormality on the ultrasound, or the results of the secondary test, either way,

    And that reasonable opinion in good faith was formed via viewing test results. If you don't view the original tests as an examination, why would a second set of tests satisfy that condition?


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