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Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

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    #692
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    If the woman does not want to be pregnant you have suggested sectioning her with a view to her remaining pregnant. 9 months of pregnancy and child birth against her will.

    Is that the support you're talking about?

    I would treat it like any mental health crisis would be treated as I view it as such.

    A lot of the time the issue the woman has it one of being judged by her family or peers. I say give them an environment where they feel no judgement and where they are supported and looked after.

    Criminally prosecute abortionists.


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    #693
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    I did mention women AND men. So all mentally ill no matter what their ilness should be forcibly treated against their will? I seem to remember homosexuality and grandma sexuality being mental illnesses so you'll forgive me if I think that mental illness isn't a rock solid area.

    They voted to remove homosexuality from the list based on political pressure.


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    #694
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,409 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Oh I forgot. We solve our population issue by importing people from abroad.

    There's many parents that are desperate to adopt. There is literally 0 adoption of Irish children.

    Now i know you're taking the pìss

    But lets play along with your silly little game, you want to "import" (strange word to use) people into ireland so they can adopt babies? Who are these people? Where will they live?

    How many babies on the current list are you going to adopt?


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    #695
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Oh I forgot. We solve our population issue by importing people from abroad.

    There's many parents that are desperate to adopt. There is literally 0 adoption of Irish children.

    Isn’t that because of family rights in the constitution. Get rid of that and native adoptions could increase.
    Doubt you’d support that though.


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    #696
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Now i know you're taking the pìss

    But lets play along with your silly little game, you want to "import" (strange word to use) people into ireland so they can adopt babies? Who are these people? Where will they live?

    How many babies on the current list are you going to adopt?

    What I am saying is that the European solution to a declining population is mass immigration.


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    #697
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 12,992 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    stefanovich wrote: »
    They voted to remove homosexuality from the list based on political pressure.

    And in your opinion, is it mental illness?

    Do tell the truth now, not like in the anti-vaxx thread. I know it can be difficult for you.


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    #698
    uptherebels
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Nobelium wrote: »
    Again why do you claim to know and represent "society's" view, and who elected you as "society's" spokesperson ?

    Again I have already explained this to you. If you believe I am wrong please highlight where these instances are considered the same.


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    #699
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,409 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    stefanovich wrote: »
    What I am saying is that the European solution to a declining population is mass immigration.

    With a caveat that they adopt a child?

    How many babies on the current list will you be adopting? You keep refusing to answer this question for some reason.


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    #700
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    stefanovich wrote: »
    A lot of the time the issue the woman has it one of being judged by her family or peers. I say give them an environment where they feel no judgement and where they are supported and looked after.

    .

    Is this your take on the matter or are you presenting it as fact?


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    #701
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,519 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Continued help? Sectioned?

    You are saying that you would incarcerate women against their will, in order that they remain pregnant and carry a child to term? Do you not understand how that sounds? How it makes women feel that they do not matter?

    You need to understand that women don’t always want to be pregnant and can wish to end a pregnancy.


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    #702
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    stefanovich wrote: »
    A lot of the time the issue the woman has it one of being judged by her family or peers.

    Says the judge mental person.


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    #703
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Igotadose wrote: »
    And in your opinion, is it mental illness?

    Do tell the truth now, not like in the anti-vaxx thread. I know it can be difficult for you.

    What I am saying is psychiatrists add or remove things from the DSM for political reasons rather than based on clinical studies so it is not to be trusted.

    I'm not going to get into the wrongs or rights of homosexuality here. It's irrelevant.


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    #704
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    With a caveat that they adopt a child?

    How many babies on the current list will you be adopting? You keep refusing to answer this question for some reason.

    There are nearly no children up for adoption and rising rates of infertility. There are desperate couples who want children. There is much demand and no supply.


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    #705
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    stefanovich wrote: »
    What I am saying is that the European solution to a declining population is mass immigration.


    How do you feel about people immigrating here and then becoming pregnant -

    would your very stringent rules apply to them?


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    #706
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    amcalester wrote: »
    Says the judge mental person.

    I am saying that abortion is wrong. A woman in a crisis pregnancy needs to be helped.


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    #707
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 12,992 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    dudara wrote: »
    You are saying that you would incarcerate women against their will, in order that they remain pregnant and carry a child to term? Do you not understand how that sounds? How it makes women feel that they do not matter?

    You need to understand that women don’t always want to be pregnant and can wish to end a pregnancy.

    Stefanovich though, is just speaking what pro-life thinks. He'd be right at home in the Alabama state Senate in the US. Pro-life is always about demeaning and controlling women, it's profitable for the Evangelical movement in the US and a way to suppress minorites in the US South, like Alabama, Louisiana, Missouri, Georgia and whatever other misbegotten places are rushing to be the state that gets their case before the USSC.


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    #708
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hospital-said-one-test-result-was-enough-before-termination-says-couple-1.3897113?mode=amp

    I think this is the nub of the issue.Which brings us back to the long conversation about processes and the lack of standardised care in the Health system.

    My heart is actually broken for this couple.I hope that their awful situation proves to be some sort of catalyst into pushing the health system to provide standardised maternity care across the country.But that it has to come to this, it makes me despair.

    We are so bad at being proactive in this country.Everything is always reactive.


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    #709
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    stefanovich wrote: »
    I am saying that abortion is wrong. A woman in a crisis pregnancy needs to be helped.

    You’ve been judging women all through this thread.


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    #710
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,409 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    stefanovich wrote: »
    There are nearly no children up for adoption and rising rates of infertility. There are desperate couples who want children. There is much demand and no supply.

    Evidence for this claim please.

    Also you still ignore my question of how many babies you yourself are trying to adopt?


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    #711
    shesty
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭shesty


    stefanovich wrote: »
    I am saying that abortion is wrong. A woman in a crisis pregnancy needs to be helped.

    Abortion is morally wrong.So wrong it will take a woman years to recover - if she ever does.
    But then again, having seen the flicker of a heartbeat on a screen at six weeks, and then to be told it would all come to nothing....I don't know if I could cope with that.I don't know how I would react. Emotive language it may be, but to know that every movement I felt, every kick and wriggle would all come to nothing?And worse, I would have to go through labour and birth and go home with nothing....? God, it would break me. Almost as much as aborting would. I was lucky, I have three healthy babies.However it could be any of us that finds ourselves in this situation.I don't expect any pro-lifer to change their minds, but until they have stood in the shoes of - at the very least - a pregnant woman or couple, I can't help but feel that their opinion is not fully informed.


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  • Options
    #712
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    dudara wrote: »
    You are saying that you would incarcerate women against their will, in order that they remain pregnant and carry a child to term? Do you not understand how that sounds? How it makes women feel that they do not matter?

    You need to understand that women don’t always want to be pregnant and can wish to end a pregnancy.

    Difficult question. I really would hate to incarcerate anyone against their will. I've experienced it first hand and it is gruesome.

    If you made abortion illegal and provided optional support services for crisis pregnancies where people got help and support and a safe place then the rest would take care of itself.


  • Options
    #713
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Evidence for this claim please.

    Also you still ignore my question of how many babies you yourself are trying to adopt?

    Currently the only source of adoption is from abroad. Do some research.


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    #714
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,917 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Stefanovich though, is just speaking what pro-life thinks. He'd be right at home in the Alabama state Senate in the US. Pro-life is always about demeaning and controlling women, it's profitable for the Evangelical movement in the US and a way to suppress minorites in the US South, like Alabama, Louisiana, Missouri, Georgia and whatever other misbegotten places are rushing to be the state that gets their case before the USSC.

    Funny that a lot of the pro lifers think migrants should be treated as **** scraped of their shoes, and left to drown in the med. Have issues with vaccinations and are typically homophobic while claiming not to be religiously motivated in having their opinions.
    Perhaps a chat with a mental health professional wouldn't be a bad idea for a few of them.


  • Options
    #715
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 12,992 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    shesty wrote: »
    Abortion is morally wrong.So wrong it will take a woman years to recover - if she ever does.

    Nonsensical proof by blatant assertion.
    shoutyourabortion.com is, anecdotally, a refutation of what you say.

    This is the 1995 study that shows 95% of women do NOT regret their abortions. And 'morally wrong' is arbitrary.

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0128832#sec013


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    #716
    Caledonia
    Registered Users Posts: 152 ✭✭Caledonia


    Good to get an on topic point. But this happened in the National Maternity Hospital not in one of the smaller outposts.
    Find report in Sunday Times disturbing : that in meeting after the results docs were not clear with the woman that the baby had been healthy.
    shesty wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hospital-said-one-test-result-was-enough-before-termination-says-couple-1.3897113?mode=amp

    I think this is the nub of the issue.Which brings us back to the long conversation about processes and the lack of standardised care in the Health system.

    My heart is actually broken for this couple.I hope that their awful situation proves to be some sort of catalyst into pushing the health system to provide standardised maternity care across the country.But that it has to come to this, it makes me despair.

    We are so bad at being proactive in this country.Everything is always reactive.


  • Options
    #717
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    shesty wrote: »
    Abortion is morally wrong.So wrong it will take a woman years to recover - if she ever does.
    But then again, having seen the flicker of a heartbeat on a screen at six weeks, and then to be told it would all come to nothing....I don't know if I could cope with that.I don't know how I would react. Emotive language it may be, but to know that every movement I felt, every kick and wriggle would all come to nothing?And worse, I would have to go through labour and birth and go home with nothing....? God, it would break me. Almost as much as aborting would. I was lucky, I have three healthy babies.However it could be any of us that finds ourselves in this situation.I don't expect any pro-lifer to change their minds, but until they have stood in the shoes of - at the very least - a pregnant woman or couple, I can't help but feel that their opinion is not fully informed.

    If you have been through the struggle of infertility, miscarriage and then finally are blessed with a pregnancy it is very hard to accept this disposable attitude with regard to human life.


  • Options
    #718
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    stefanovich wrote: »
    If you have been through the struggle of infertility, miscarriage and then finally are blessed with a pregnancy it is very hard to accept this disposable attitude with regard to human life.

    Then don't have an abortion if you don't want one.


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    #719
    nullzero
    Registered Users Posts: 16,370 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    ****


    shesty wrote: »
    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hospital-said-one-test-result-was-enough-before-termination-says-couple-1.3897113?mode=amp

    I think this is the nub of the issue.Which brings us back to the long conversation about processes and the lack of standardised care in the Health system.

    My heart is actually broken for this couple.I hope that their awful situation proves to be some sort of catalyst into pushing the health system to provide standardised maternity care across the country.But that it has to come to this, it makes me despair.

    We are so bad at being proactive in this country.Everything is always reactive.

    If the contents of that article are accurate then it is a damning indictment of the medical personell involved.

    Glazers Out!



  • Options
    #720
    stefanovich
    Registered Users Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    DubInMeath wrote: »
    Funny that a lot of the pro lifers think migrants should be treated as **** scraped of their shoes, and left to drown in the med. Have issues with vaccinations and are typically homophobic while claiming not to be religiously motivated in having their opinions.
    Perhaps a chat with a mental health professional wouldn't be a bad idea for a few of them.

    I am not religious at all. I came to my own conclusions about what is right or wrong.

    I think NGOs facilitating the criminal exploitation of economic migrants is wrong.

    I have issues with pharmaceutical companies who are some of the most corrupt and amoral companies out there. Some vaccinations are fine.

    I do not have anything against gay people so I don't think I can be classed as homophobic. I do think some of the pride marches are too sexualised and the involvement of young children at them is suspect. I would class it as an "alternative" lifestyle than probably shouldn't be actively promoted.


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    #721
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,019 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Difficult question. I really would hate to incarcerate anyone against their will. I've experienced it first hand and it is gruesome.

    That's why it's only legal for the most serious of reasons. "I don't like what you want to do" isn't likely to be one of them.

    And whatever about the whole "unnatural lust" interpretations of homosexuality being referred to earlier, it'd be much harder to make a case that not wanting to be pregnant is unnatural or a sign of mental illness. A lot of women don't want to be pregnant in any given month or year.
    stefanovich wrote: »
    If you made abortion illegal and provided optional support services for crisis pregnancies where people got help and support and a safe place then the rest would take care of itself.

    Simples, eh?

    Enough to make one wonder why the Irish prolife movement never got around to providing the second part of that. Would have solved the problem, according to you.


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