Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 13-05-2019 07:19PM

Inviere wrote: »

All multiple world champions have had that claim though, Red Bull were very strong (arguably dominant for two of their four winning seasons), Ferrari, McLaren, Williams...if you're going to detract from Lewis because of what team he's in, it'd only be fair to do the same to some of the other greats.

How many different teams has Alonso and Vettel won for? It's been seen as a 'next-level' thing to do, win a WDC with more than one team, and Lewis has achieved that.

Lewis came into F1 in his rookie year, stuck it to his teammate (considered the best of his generation), got the measure of him, and lost out on winning the title by a single point. Yes he came into F1 to a front running team, but not many rookies come through the ranks and get the measure of much more seasoned team mates in their first year. I personally think 2007's results do a lot to show just how talented Lewis is, possibly more so than his WDC's.

There is no 'greatest ever', too many things change - cars, rules, tracks, styles, technology, etc. There are only 'the greats'. To compare them is meaningless. One thing is very certain though, Lewis Hamilton is in the discussion with Schumacher, Senna, and Alonso, as prodigious, generational talents that don't come around too often. To deny that, I feel says more about a persons bias than anything else.

The only other rookie season in the last 25-30 years that's comparable to Hamilton's is Villeneuve in the 1996 Williams.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 13-05-2019 07:20PM

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Oh dear. It looks like Ferrari's problem is down to a fundamental design issue

https://www.essentiallysports.com/scuderia-ferrari-admit-that-they-made-a-mistake-in-their-concept/

Jasus............ Have Mercedes given Ferrari a backhander to keep losing or is Paddy Lowe now secretly employed at Maranello?

Sonny noggs · 13-05-2019 07:47PM

http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/678964/Russell_shines_in_Kubicas_Williams_chassis/

Not looking good for Kubica if this is correct.

Cool_CM · 13-05-2019 08:44PM

Pretty excellent from Lewis and Mercedes:

https://news.sky.com/story/lewis-hamilton-mercedes-sends-f1-car-to-home-of-terminally-ill-boy-who-inspired-spanish-grand-prix-win-11719287

Frank Bullitt · 13-05-2019 08:45PM

Its all good news in here today...

quokula · 13-05-2019 10:15PM

eviltimeban wrote: »

Most successful doesn't necessarily mean "greatest". On paper, yes. But he's no Senna, or Schumacher, or even Alonso - those drivers took F1 to a new level.

Yep he’s nowhere near their level. You could make a very strong case he’s far from the best driver on the current grid - how many other top drivers would be so closely matched with Bottas, or would have been beaten by Nico Rosberg like he was?

The Mercedes hybrid is a stunning statistical outlier that has laid waste to everything. Hamilton has been lucky enough to be sat in it, alongside mediocre team mates who he’s barely outmatched.

Burkie1203 · 14-05-2019 07:29AM

It's impossible to call Hamilton one of the greats based on stats. The last 10 years, and Vettel in particular have shown it all comes down to the car and being coached by your engineer. It all comes down to the car and the team. This isn't racing anymore. It's just a technology race.

The lap overview on Sunday a few times came up on screen. The cars were nearly all spread out across the lap with gaps between everyone. Norris hitting Stroll is the only reason there was anything happening in the last 15 laps.

Safety cars make things kind of good but the cars having to line up on the grid again would spice it up even more

I have got into FE lately. Finding it hugely enjoyable, 8 winners from 9 races, cars all bunched together etc.

Anjobe · 14-05-2019 09:32AM

quokula wrote: »

Yep he’s nowhere near their level. You could make a very strong case he’s far from the best driver on the current grid - how many other top drivers would be so closely matched with Bottas, or would have been beaten by Nico Rosberg like he was?

The Mercedes hybrid is a stunning statistical outlier that has laid waste to everything. Hamilton has been lucky enough to be sat in it, alongside mediocre team mates who he’s barely outmatched.

Ho hum, Hamilton is no where near Alsonso's level - a driver he actually beat in the same car in his rookie year? How many drivers would have been beaten by Nico Rosberg, well Schumacher was in 3 consecutive seasons. Ask yourself how many drivers on the current grid could have produced the pole lap that Hamilton did at Singapore last year?

Mercedes' car has been phenomenal, but wasn't completely dominant last year or the year before, the Ferrari was nearly as good, better at some circuits. That Hamilton won those championships pretty easily would seem to indicate that he is the clearly the best driver of the 4 who were at those 2 teams at least.

Burkie1203 wrote: »

It's impossible to call Hamilton one of the greats based on stats. The last 10 years, and Vettel in particular have shown it all comes down to the car and being coached by your engineer. It all comes down to the car and the team. This isn't racing anymore. It's just a technology race.

F1 has always been about the car. If you're going to dismiss Hamilton (and Vettel) as being among the greatest because they racked up championships in a dominant car then the same argument can be applied to Schumacher, Prost, Senna, Lauda, Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark etc, etc, so who exactly are the "greatest"?

Its fairly unusual for the winning driver not to come from the winning constructor - know who the last one was? Nelson Picquet won both his championships in a different team to the winning constructor, does this make him the greatest?

Nic_Col · 14-05-2019 10:02AM

I sat down last night to do up a top 10 of my time following the sport stupidly thinking it would be a 5 minute thing...

1) Schumacher, M
2) Hakkinen
3) Hamilton
4) Alonso
5) Vettel
6) Button
7) Rosberg
8) Raikkonen
9) Coulthard
10) Riccardo
11) Verstappen, M
12) Villeneuve
13) Montoya
14) Alesi
15) Kubica
16) Hill
17) Hulkenberg
18) Irvine
19) Massa
20) Barrichello

The top 5 would be worthy of being hailed "One of the greatest" in my opinion.

The first race I watched was the 1993 Portuguese GP which was the third last race of that year and I didn't really become a fully fledged fan until Monaco 94 as for all the wrong reasons formula one was very topical at that time (in my defence I was only 9!).

So technically I have seen Senna, Prost and Mansell race; three drivers who would unquestionably make my top 10, I just don't really have any strong enough memories of watching them race.

I don't know whether I'd have Senna as #1 or #2, Schumacher was my idol for about ten years, often he was the only man capable of taking the fight to Newey designed cars and kept seasons from becoming a battle only between Newey team mates. And he had a handful of phenomenal drives which still make me giddy.

I'd have Prost behind Alonso and ahead of Vettel. Mansell probably behind Vettel. Even if my primary memories of Mansell of him really struggling in a McLaren that he was unable to fit in!

Hakkinen at #2 is perhaps a bit of nostalgia bias. But one factor in terms of how a driver must be rated is the drivers ability to tow the company line and how they fit in as a team member and that they have a team driven ethos rather than a more selfish ethos.

This is one area where Alonso undoubtedly falls down. His tempestuous nature may be entertaining and endear him to many but it literally cost McLaren $100,000,000 back in 2007 and while his public criticisms and radio messages regarding the Honda engine were amusing, it only burned more bridges for him.

Schumacher was the ultimate team man, though Todt was the driver of the Ferrari team ethos Schumacher 100% bought into it. He never really criticised the team, not publicly anyway.

Hamilton has taken that on, he constantly refers to the guys "back at the factory", and even though it's annoyingly repetitive he's correct to do it. He does frequently query strategy calls over the radio though and often airs concerns over how long he thinks the tyres will last, by and large he does say and do the right things but he's not in Schumacher's league when it comes to the team thing.

Feel free to call me nuts for ranking this driver over that one and so on but I've no problem admitting my own personal nostalgia is a factor in this list!

quokula · 14-05-2019 10:04AM

Anjobe wrote: »

Ho hum, Hamilton is no where near Alsonso's level - a driver he actually beat in the same car in his rookie year? How many drivers would have been beaten by Nico Rosberg, well Schumacher was in 3 consecutive seasons. Ask yourself how many drivers on the current grid could have produced the pole lap that Hamilton did at Singapore last year?

Mercedes' car has been phenomenal, but wasn't completely dominant last year or the year before, the Ferrari was nearly as good, better at some circuits. That Hamilton won those championships pretty easily would seem to indicate that he is the clearly the best driver of the 4 who were at those 2 teams at least.

F1 has always been about the car. If you're going to dismiss Hamilton (and Vettel) as being among the greatest because they racked up championships in a dominant car then the same argument can be applied to Schumacher, Prost, Senna, Lauda, Jackie Stewart, Jim Clark etc, etc, so who exactly are the "greatest"?

Its fairly unusual for the winning driver not to come from the winning constructor - know who the last one was? Nelson Picquet won both his championships in a different team to the winning constructor, does this make him the greatest?

You've clearly just read something and didn't see what happened in 2007 if you think he "beat" Alonso - they finished level on points despite the team boss (who hated Alonso for exposing the endemic culture of corruption at McLaren at the time) being on record that his goal was to beat Alonso with Hamilton. It was by far the worst year of Fernando's career for that reason. Look at the following seasons when Alonso regularly beat Hamilton in an inferior car for more realistic evidence.

Also if you think the performance of a post-retirement 40 year old Schumacher is representative of his real potential you're either deluded or being deliberately dishonest.

You're correct to say that it's unusual for the winning driver not being from the winning constructor, since the winning driver's points go to the winning constructor. The key is how often the winning driver's team-mate is second. For example, Vettel's team-mate never finished as high as second when he won the title (in fact Hamilton's team mate did in one of those years, while Lewis himself struggled in the same car) indicating that without Vettel Red Bull likely would never have won anything (and indeed they've never won anything since he left). The same goes for most but not all of Schumacher's titles, both Alonso's titles etc. On the other hand, without Lewis in the car, Mercedes would still have comfortably won everything in the hybrid era (and indeed, Hamilton was beaten by his own team mate to the title one of those years, an unprecedented blemish for a driver laughably proclaimed to be an all time great). The only exception has been the last couple of years when Vettel drove the wheels off the Ferrari to keep up and Bottas proved himself wholly unworthy of a seat at a top team.

Anjobe · 14-05-2019 10:22AM

quokula wrote: »

You've clearly just read something and didn't see what happened in 2007 if you think he "beat" Alonso - they finished level on points despite the team boss (who hated Alonso for exposing the endemic culture of corruption at McLaren at the time) being on record that his goal was to beat Alonso with Hamilton. It was by far the worst year of Fernando's career for that reason. Look at the following seasons when Alonso regularly beat Hamilton in an inferior car for more realistic evidence.

Also if you think the performance of a post-retirement 40 year old Schumacher is representative of his real potential you're either deluded or being deliberately dishonest.

You're correct to say that it's unusual for the winning driver not being from the winning constructor, since the winning driver's points go to the winning constructor. The key is how often the winning driver's team-mate is second. For example, Vettel's team-mate never finished as high as second when he won the title (in fact Hamilton's team mate did in one of those years, while Lewis himself struggled in the same car) indicating that without Vettel Red Bull likely would never have won anything (and indeed they've never won anything since he left). The same goes for most but not all of Schumacher's titles, both Alonso's titles etc. On the other hand, without Lewis in the car, Mercedes would still have comfortably won everything in the hybrid era (and indeed, Hamilton was beaten by his own team mate to the title one of those years, an unprecedented blemish for a driver laughably proclaimed to be an all time great). The only exception has been the last couple of years when Vettel drove the wheels off the Ferrari to keep up and Bottas proved himself wholly unworthy of a seat at a top team.

Vettel drove the wheels off the Ferrari in the last couple of years? Dream on, he blew any chance he had in a competitive car through a series of below par performances, errors under pressure and costly red mist incidents.

Its harder for a driver to beat their team mate when the team is dominant, as other drivers can't take points off them. Rosberg was actually a very good driver, but it still took a combination of errors and extreme bad luck for Hamilton (plus the culmination of a 3 year plan to needle and undermine him in the team) to beat him. Rosberg retired then because he knew he was never going to repeat the feat.

You can dislike Hamilton if you want, that's just opinion (but please be honest about the reasons), but dismissing his driving ability on arguments that could be applied to any winning driver ever is nonsense.

quokula · 14-05-2019 10:23AM

Nic_Col wrote: »

I sat down last night to do up a top 10 of my time following the sport stupidly thinking it would be a 5 minute thing...

1) Schumacher, M
2) Hakkinen
3) Hamilton
4) Alonso
5) Vettel
6) Button
7) Rosberg
8) Raikkonen
9) Coulthard
10) Riccardo
11) Verstappen, M
12) Villeneuve
13) Montoya
14) Alesi
15) Kubica
16) Hill
17) Hulkenberg
18) Irvine
19) Massa
20) Barrichello

The top 5 would be worthy of being hailed "One of the greatest" in my opinion.

The first race I watched was the 1993 Portuguese GP which was the third last race of that year and I didn't really become a fully fledged fan until Monaco 94 as for all the wrong reasons formula one was very topical at that time (in my defence I was only 9!).

So technically I have seen Senna, Prost and Mansell race; three drivers who would unquestionably make my top 10, I just don't really have any strong enough memories of watching them race.

I don't know whether I'd have Senna as #1 or #2, Schumacher was my idol for about ten years, often he was the only man capable of taking the fight to Newey designed cars and kept seasons from becoming a battle only between Newey team mates. And he had a handful of phenomenal drives which still make me giddy.

I'd have Prost behind Alonso and ahead of Vettel. Mansell probably behind Vettel. Even if my primary memories of Mansell of him really struggling in a McLaren that he was unable to fit in!

Hakkinen at #2 is perhaps a bit of nostalgia bias. But one factor in terms of how a driver must be rated is the drivers ability to tow the company line and how they fit in as a team member and that they have a team driven ethos rather than a more selfish ethos.

This is one area where Alonso undoubtedly falls down. His tempestuous nature may be entertaining and endear him to many but it literally cost McLaren $100,000,000 back in 2007 and while his public criticisms and radio messages regarding the Honda engine were amusing, it only burned more bridges for him.

Schumacher was the ultimate team man, though Todt was the driver of the Ferrari team ethos Schumacher 100% bought into it. He never really criticised the team, not publicly anyway.

Hamilton has taken that on, he constantly refers to the guys "back at the factory", and even though it's annoyingly repetitive he's correct to do it. He does frequently query strategy calls over the radio though and often airs concerns over how long he thinks the tyres will last, by and large he does say and do the right things but he's not in Schumacher's league when it comes to the team thing.

Feel free to call me nuts for ranking this driver over that one and so on but I've no problem admitting my own personal nostalgia is a factor in this list!

Interesting post. I'm in a similar position having started watching in 1992 so don't feel I'm in a position to rate the early drivers. Though I do think based on what I did see that Schumacher already had the upper hand on Senna (the race that really hooked me on F1 was Monaco 93 when all the build up was Prost v Senna in the two top cars but Schumacher came from nowhere in the little Benetton to dominate the race, until his engine failed)

My top would be something like this (the top 5 are easy, it gets harder to judge after that):

1) Schumacher
2) Alonso
3) Vettel
4) Hakkinen
5) M Verstappen
6) Hill
7) Ricciardo
8) Hamilton
9) Button
10) Raikkonen
11) Alesi
12) Hulkenberg
13) Webber
14) Barrichello
15) Kubica
16) Heidfeld
17) Trulli
18) R Schumacher
19) Perez
20) Coulthard

Btw I agree with you on how important it is to be team player. Schumacher's reaction when an engine failure cost him the title at Suzuka 2006 was one of my all time favourite F1 moments. Such a class act.

I think you're giving Hamilton a bit of a free ride by comparison - it's easy to thank the team when they keep handing you easy victories on a plate but don't forget how quick he was to attack the team and even sowed conspiracy theories against them whenever Nico beat him or that one time he had an engine failure in Malaysia.

pjohnson · 14-05-2019 01:03PM

Morning Times
D6hihS6W4AADIVh.jpg:large

skipper_G · 14-05-2019 01:04PM

Zandvoort officially confirmed for 2020 https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.dutch-grand-prix-to-return-at-zandvoort-from-2020.1OTLRqLZB6mXdD1VPyHiNx.html

youreadthat · 14-05-2019 01:35PM

Boring addition tbh especially with Spa around the corner.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 14-05-2019 01:42PM

youreadthat wrote: »

Boring addition tbh especially with Spa around the corner.

Verstappen is the reason for it no doubt, Belgian born Dutchman so it's a win win for both countries with regards to revenue, at 21 there is easily another 15 years in him.

Adamocovic · 14-05-2019 01:48PM

Nic_Col wrote: »

I sat down last night to do up a top 10 of my time following the sport stupidly thinking it would be a 5 minute thing...

1) Schumacher, M
2) Hakkinen
3) Hamilton
4) Alonso
5) Vettel
6) Button
7) Rosberg
8) Raikkonen
9) Coulthard
10) Riccardo
11) Verstappen, M
12) Villeneuve
13) Montoya
14) Alesi
15) Kubica
16) Hill
17) Hulkenberg
18) Irvine
19) Massa
20) Barrichello

The top 5 would be worthy of being hailed "One of the greatest" in my opinion.

The first race I watched was the 1993 Portuguese GP which was the third last race of that year and I didn't really become a fully fledged fan until Monaco 94 as for all the wrong reasons formula one was very topical at that time (in my defence I was only 9!).

So technically I have seen Senna, Prost and Mansell race; three drivers who would unquestionably make my top 10, I just don't really have any strong enough memories of watching them race.

I don't know whether I'd have Senna as #1 or #2, Schumacher was my idol for about ten years, often he was the only man capable of taking the fight to Newey designed cars and kept seasons from becoming a battle only between Newey team mates. And he had a handful of phenomenal drives which still make me giddy.

I'd have Prost behind Alonso and ahead of Vettel. Mansell probably behind Vettel. Even if my primary memories of Mansell of him really struggling in a McLaren that he was unable to fit in!

Hakkinen at #2 is perhaps a bit of nostalgia bias. But one factor in terms of how a driver must be rated is the drivers ability to tow the company line and how they fit in as a team member and that they have a team driven ethos rather than a more selfish ethos.

This is one area where Alonso undoubtedly falls down. His tempestuous nature may be entertaining and endear him to many but it literally cost McLaren $100,000,000 back in 2007 and while his public criticisms and radio messages regarding the Honda engine were amusing, it only burned more bridges for him.

Schumacher was the ultimate team man, though Todt was the driver of the Ferrari team ethos Schumacher 100% bought into it. He never really criticised the team, not publicly anyway.

Hamilton has taken that on, he constantly refers to the guys "back at the factory", and even though it's annoyingly repetitive he's correct to do it. He does frequently query strategy calls over the radio though and often airs concerns over how long he thinks the tyres will last, by and large he does say and do the right things but he's not in Schumacher's league when it comes to the team thing.

Feel free to call me nuts for ranking this driver over that one and so on but I've no problem admitting my own personal nostalgia is a factor in this list!

Very good post.

Loving seeing Button up there. Think he was one of the smoothest/cleanest drivers I've seen around a track.

Remember his title winning season, was brilliant for me to watch, despite the second half just him trying to hold them off. Was delighted when he won it.

Anjobe · 14-05-2019 02:13PM

Adamocovic wrote: »

Very good post.

Loving seeing Button up there. Think he was one of the smoothest/cleanest drivers I've seen around a track.

Remember his title winning season, was brilliant for me to watch, despite the second half just him trying to hold them off. Was delighted when he won it.

Bit harsh on Damon Hill though.

Anjobe · 14-05-2019 02:21PM

Peyton Lively Tiller wrote: »

Verstappen is the reason for it no doubt, Belgian born Dutchman so it's a win win for both countries with regards to revenue, at 21 there is easily another 15 years in him.

Zandvoort doesn't really look up to modern Formula 1 so will be interesting to see how it goes. Atmosphere should be good with all the Max fans, F1's very own Dutch Corner.

Could be 23 races next year (including Vietnam) unless any of the ones now in the last year of their contracts (Britain, Germany, Italy and Mexico) are dropped.

LollipopJimmy · 14-05-2019 02:37PM

Anjobe wrote: »

Bit harsh on Damon Hill though.

I never fancied Damon as a driver tbh, I know he's in the championship club but that Williams was a beast

donspeekinglesh · 14-05-2019 03:09PM

Anjobe wrote: »

Its fairly unusual for the winning driver not to come from the winning constructor - know who the last one was? Nelson Picquet won both his championships in a different team to the winning constructor, does this make him the greatest?

It's happened a few times since then - Prost (86), Schumacher (94), Hakkinen (99) and Hamilton (08)

Anjobe · 14-05-2019 03:12PM

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

It's happened a few times since then - Prost (86), Schumacher (94), Hakkinen (99) and Hamilton (08)

Yes, that's what I meant. Hamilton was the last WDC winner who didn't drive for the champion constructors, in answer to a post dissing Hamilton 'cos he can apparently only win in a dominant car.

Anjobe · 14-05-2019 03:16PM

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

I never fancied Damon as a driver tbh, I know he's in the championship club but that Williams was a beast

So he comes behind Villeneuve who replaced him in that car? The only list in which Villeneuve should top Hill is in the list of complete tw*ts who have driven in F1.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 14-05-2019 03:27PM

Anjobe wrote: »

Yes, that's what I meant. Hamilton was the last WDC winner who didn't drive for the champion constructors, in answer to a post dissing Hamilton 'cos he can apparently only win in a dominant car.

He did win in the dominant car, his teammate at the time just wasn’t good enough to help secure the constructors championship

Anjobe · 14-05-2019 03:42PM

Peyton Lively Tiller wrote: »

He did win in the dominant car, his teammate at the time just wasn’t good enough to help secure the constructors championship

AFAIR, most commentators at the time reckoned the Ferrari was the better car that year.

Charlie-Bravo · 14-05-2019 03:53PM

Re 2008, what's a point among friends these days? Well, it would have been Massa's only for Timo.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 14-05-2019 03:54PM

Anjobe wrote: »

AFAIR, most commentators at the time reckoned the Ferrari was the better car that year.

It had the edge of the Mercedes for the last 2 years only for Vettel cracking and botched upgrades.

Anjobe · 14-05-2019 03:58PM

astrofluff wrote: »

Re 2008, what's a point among friends these days? Well, it would have been Massa's only for Timo.

I read an article, may have been by Brundle, in which he claimed a Ferrari insider had told him they were convinced they had the championship winning car that year and were so disappointed in Massa its why they subsequently treated him as Alonso's water carrier.

Inviere · 14-05-2019 04:01PM

astrofluff wrote: »

Re 2008, what's a point among friends these days? Well, it would have been Massa's only for Timo.

What if's but's & maybe's give many drivers many titles, and take away many too. You could have a whole thread dedicated to "if only's". Lewis would be going for his 8th world title if he hadn't beached his car at the pit entry in 2007, and if his engine didn't blow in 2016. How many would Schumacher have if he avoided misfortune? Alonso could so easily have been three time champ if Grosjean hadn't almost killed him in 2012.

Nic_Col · 14-05-2019 04:25PM

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24096/11719448/martin-brundle-on-spanish-gp-frustrations-and-f1-future-visions

F1 must be a drivers' championship, not an engineers' tech fest. The cars must be the angriest, flightiest most challenging machines on the planet. I don't want to see teenagers jumping in them and having it all mastered by lunchtime, and fully on the pace.

Good article by Brundle on Sky Sports website.

Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

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