Woman shot & killed in Derry being treated as a terrorist incident MOD WARNING IN OP

citytillidie · 05-05-2019 11:37am

janfebmar wrote: »

Those poor people were brought up and taught that the IRA was right, that it was right to attack "crown forces", that the "black prods" were the ones who were wrong etc. Even Mary Lou at the end of her Ard Fheis sneeringly shouted "UP THE REBELS". There is no difference between what the PIRA did and what the new IRA did. Remember the constant whining about the famine and the brave patriots of 1916 and about how Ireland unfree will never be at rest etc. Not a whole class is going to sign up, but all it takes is one or two now and again to be successfully indoctrinated to swell the ranks.

Holy crap you are now brining in the famine

janfebmar · 05-05-2019 11:47am

citytillidie wrote: »

Holy crap you are now brining in the famine

Because it was relevant to the point I was making.

zapitastas · 05-05-2019 11:48am

janfebmar wrote: »

Those poor people were brought up and taught that the IRA was right, that it was right to attack "crown forces", that the "black prods" were the ones who were wrong etc. Even Mary Lou at the end of her Ard Fheis sneeringly shouted "UP THE REBELS". There is no difference between what the PIRA did and what the new IRA did. Remember the constant whining about the famine and the brave patriots of 1916 and about how Ireland unfree will never be at rest etc. Not a whole class is going to sign up, but all it takes is one or two now and again to be successfully indoctrinated to swell the ranks.

Is more accurate to say that areas like the creggan were created so that Catholics could be herded into certain areas and unionists could then engage in gerrymandering in order to ensure that as a minority they could dominate the councils. Lack of investment and opportunity abound in such places and result in social deprivation and the myriad of problems that go along with that. Areas like the creggan is the result of decades and decades of planned political isolation.

janfebmar · 05-05-2019 12:14pm

zapitastas wrote: »

Is more accurate to say that areas like the creggan were created so that Catholics could be herded into certain areas and unionists could then engage in gerrymandering in order to ensure that as a minority they could dominate the councils.

I was talking about people in the New IRA, brought up on a diet of hating the British. You are going back decades before that.

zapitastas wrote: »

Lack of investment and opportunity abound in such places and result in social deprivation and the myriad of problems that go along with that.

There is social deprivation in most if not all cities in the world, from Limerick to London to Leeds or Paris or wherever you want. No excuse to attack the forces of law and order though.

zapitastas wrote: »

Areas like the creggan is the result of decades and decades of planned political isolation.

The government has put a lot of money and investment in to the place but many young people and still being taught to hate the British.

citytillidie · 05-05-2019 1:01pm

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janfebmar wrote: »

I was talking about people in the New IRA, brought up on a diet of hating the British. You are going back decades before that.

There is social deprivation in most if not all cities in the world, from Limerick to London to Leeds or Paris or wherever you want. No excuse to attack the forces of law and order though.

The government has put a lot of money and investment in to the place but many young people and still being taught to hate the British.

No they have not you are not from NI never mind Derry. Derry is still deprived of major investment compared to the rest of the country. NI is some place where the 2nd city does not have a motorway connection, a train journey that takes longer than driving is also crazy. Derry is still the highest unemployment. Most investment brought into the city was the work of John Hume. The government in Belfast and London have not done much.

People in Derry did great work in getting things going, take the Halloween celebrations here, attracting more and more people, Belfast have not tried to steal it along with the maritime festival that they thought hard to get to dock in the city with the clipper race. Belfast have been trying to steal that too.

janfebmar · 05-05-2019 1:14pm

citytillidie wrote: »

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No they have not.

What about the new housing development at the edge of Creggans, like Ballymagowan? What about the redevelopment of the Bishop's Field as a sports and recreation area, the play park and the development of a country park and fishery at the old reservoir site?

What about the redevelopment of the schools, and the billions the British government pays in to N. Ireland Ireland in benefits etc. I'll agree the economy could be better, but it could be better in many other parts of the western world too.

janfebmar · 05-05-2019 1:17pm

citytillidie wrote: »

People in Derry did great work in getting things going, take the Halloween celebrations here, attracting more and more people, Belfast have not tried to steal it along with the maritime festival that they thought hard to get to dock in the city with the clipper race. Belfast have been trying to steal that too.

Fair point. However you will always get perceived inequality. Here in the "26 counties" many would say we have 2 economies, one in Dublin and one in rural Ireland, where many towns and villages have been left behind / decimated.

citytillidie · 05-05-2019 1:30pm

janfebmar wrote: »

What about the new housing development at the edge of Creggans, like Ballymagowan? What about the redevelopment of the Bishop's Field as a sports and recreation area, the play park and the development of a country park and fishery at the old reservoir site?

What about the redevelopment of the schools, and the billions the British government pays in to N. Ireland Ireland in benefits etc. I'll agree the economy could be better, but it could be better in many other parts of the western world too.

Social housing badly needed and what would be the least expected same as bishops field. The country park was part funded by the lottery.

Schools so neglected and run down work was badly needed.

Compared to other cities no NI derry has been underfunded from Belfast like most of any place west of the river bann

janfebmar · 05-05-2019 1:42pm

citytillidie wrote: »

Social housing badly needed and what would be the least expected same as bishops field. The country park was part funded by the lottery.

Schools so neglected and run down work was badly needed.

Compared to other cities no NI derry has been underfunded from Belfast like most of any place west of the river bann

Many people west of the Shannon feel the same, that the main city is getting all the development and jobs. How many cranes are there in the Dublin skyline and almost none elsewhere? In England the north of England is economically different to the south. In the USA there is a huge difference between rustbelt places like much of Detroit and some of the coastal cities.
Certainly rioting and petrol bombs and shooting, like that which occurred a few weeks ago, are unlikely in the struggle to help bring multinational investment. Everyone would like to see more economic development all over Ireland I am sure.

citytillidie · 05-05-2019 1:54pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Many people west of the Shannon feel the same, that the main city is getting all the development and jobs. How many cranes are there in the Dublin skyline and almost none elsewhere? In England the north of England is economically different to the south. In the USA there is a huge difference between rustbelt places like much of Detroit and some of the coastal cities.
Certainly rioting and petrol bombs and shooting, like that which occurred a few weeks ago, are unlikely in the struggle to help bring multinational investment. Everyone would like to see more economic development all over Ireland I am sure.

Well I have no idea about all those places. I am just going from what I have seen and going over NI for weekend umpiring with hockey you can see the difference in sport facilities as you go west, and that is not even between the two biggest cites some smaller towns have better sports facilities than Derry which is really a joke is a situation but then those smaller towns are main DUP strong holds, just shows where the Belfast (DUP) put the money.

Don’t get me started on the Brandywell a place that remained mostly the same from 1928, some of those sports facilities are better than the stadium in the 2nd City. Sure they built a new stand but that’s some going building a stand for about 300 people with no proper toilets. SF cloning irs world class is an even bigger joke.

janfebmar · 05-05-2019 2:05pm

citytillidie wrote: »

but then those smaller towns are main DUP strong holds, just shows where the Belfast (DUP) put the money.

Funny, some in the DUP would say the opposite, that nationalist areas get more money, but then the grass is always greener on the far side.

citytillidie · 05-05-2019 2:08pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Funny, some in the DUP would say the opposite, that nationalist areas get more money, but then the grass is always greener on the far side.

Lol all you have to do is look at facilities for the communities. But anyways that’s way off topic.

McMurphy · 05-05-2019 2:09pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Funny, some in the DUP would say the opposite, that nationalist areas get more money, but then the grass is always greener on the far side.

Some in the DUP would say that the earth is only thousands of years old, than that evolution is a myth.

Evolution
DUP assembly member Thomas Buchanan has previously called for creationism to be taught in schools. In 2016, he voiced support for an evangelical Christian programme that offers “helpful practical advice on how to counter evolutionary teaching”. He has expressed a desire to see every school in Northern Ireland teaching creationism, describing evolution as a “peddled lie”.

Buchanan told the Irish News “I’m someone who believes in creationism and that the world was spoken into existence in six days by His power,” adding that children had been “corrupted by the teaching of evolution”.

timthumbni · 05-05-2019 3:56pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Some in the DUP would say that the earth is only thousands of years old, than that evolution is a myth.

Is this not the same view as all Christians? Weird if you ask me but hardly unique to the DUP. What is The republics predominant religion again?

janfebmar · 05-05-2019 4:09pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Is this not the same view as all Christians? Weird if you ask me but hardly unique to the DUP. What is The republics predominant religion again?

Its the one that believes in Transubstantiation, which is according to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, the change of substance or essence by which the bread and wine offered in the sacrifice of the sacrament of the Eucharist during the Mass, become, in reality, the body and blood Jesus! And Johnny Dogs brings up a few members of the DUP as having funny ideas....at least most of them probably do not believe in Transubstantiation, they just take the bible literally. I have no problem with those few people who really believe God created earth 4000 years ago or in the r c c who believe a piece of bread and wine is really flesh and blood.

zapitastas · 05-05-2019 4:23pm

janfebmar wrote: »

Its the one that believes in Transubstantiation, which is according to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, the change of substance or essence by which the bread and wine offered in the sacrifice of the sacrament of the Eucharist during the Mass, become, in reality, the body and blood Jesus! And Johnny Dogs brings up a few members of the DUP as having funny ideas....at least most of them probably do not believe in Transubstantiation, they just take the bible literally. I have no problem with those few people who really believe God created earth 4000 years ago or in the r c c who believe a piece of bread and wine is really flesh and blood.

Where it becomes a serious issue is when religious beliefs start to infringe and impede upon the rights of other people. In this field the beliefs of the DUP are to the fore. Is completely unacceptable

Baggly · 05-05-2019 4:24pm

Mod

Warning in op still stands. Politics go to the politics forum. If there is nothing else but politics to discuss I'll close this thread now.

ilkhanid · 05-05-2019 11:12pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Is this not the same view as all Christians? Weird if you ask me but hardly unique to the DUP. What is The republics predominant religion again?

No.Not really. Christians believed the world was created by God, but not all at once, the whole kit and caboodle in one go. Catholicism (now) and mainstream Protestant churches believe that evolution is compatible with Christianity:God set the whole machine in motion and he created the world in a continuing process over aeons. That's very different to fundamentalist beliefs that the world was created by fiat over seven days, including sedimentary rocks and fossils.

Hamsterchops · 06-05-2019 11:39am

Several weeks after the murder of Lyra McKee and I wonder if the "hard men" of the New IRA have any support left, that is, if they had any support in the first place?

There is no place in society for such fringe nutters in this day & age.

Catch em, lock em up, and throw away the key.

McMurphy · 06-05-2019 2:21pm

timthumbni wrote: »

Is this not the same view as all Christians? Weird if you ask me but hardly unique to the DUP. What is The republics predominant religion again?

What is unique though is that the DUP are in a position of power in the north and are actively denying some of its citizens the same rights enjoyed by the rest of the UK - that they hold so dearly, based on these same religious views.

skallywag · 06-05-2019 2:36pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Several weeks after the murder of Lyra McKee and I wonder if the "hard men" of the New IRA have any support left, that is, if they had any support in the first place?

I do not think that these people have any support worth talking about outside of some small local pockets in a limited number of areas, and whatever support may have been there is now going to be potentially damaged.

As shocking as all of this is, I still genuinely believe that we are not on track to return to the horror of the 70s and 80s. There was a certain underlying empathy towards the IRA during these times, although most folk would have been very reluctant to admit this either at the time or in present day. There is no stomach for any of this any more though amongst the general population.

Hamsterchops · 06-05-2019 8:04pm

skallywag wrote: »

As shocking as all of this is, I still genuinely believe that we are not on track to return to the horror of the 70s and 80s. There was a certain underlying empathy towards the IRA during these times, although most folk would have been very reluctant to admit this either at the time or in present day. There is no stomach for any of this any more though amongst the general population.

That bold bit is very scary!

So if Lyra McKee (or a policeman) or anybody else had been shot dead or car bombed back in the 70s or 80s there might have been an underlying empathy towards their killers, God that's sad

Lets hope that Lyra's murder will put an end to such actions, and put an end to any underlying empathy that some may have towards her killers.

skallywag · 07-05-2019 8:26am

Hamsterchops wrote: »

So if Lyra McKee (or a policeman) or anybody else had been shot dead or car bombed back in the 70s or 80s there might have been an underlying empathy towards their killers, God that's sad

It is difficult to bring the point across properly to those who did not live though these times I think.

When I say that there was an underlying empathy for the IRA amongst a large portion of the population (North & South) I am not talking about folk running around like mad screaming 'up the RA' etc., or even getting involved in discussions on the topic at work, or in the pub, etc. I am talking about those who would be viewed as 'ordinary decent people' let's say, but who would have held a certain sympathy or empathy towards the IRA if they were really forced to show their hand.

I had an interesting discussion with a historian about this topic some years ago, and he made the point that if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer.

A killing such as Lyra's would certainly still have disgusted people at that time, but attacks on the security forces, and in particular the British Army, were certainly viewed differently.

An important point to note though is that the situation during the 70's and 80's was not isolated pockets of sporadic violence as we see from the New IRA, but was rather relentless over a long period of time. You turned on the radio in the morning and the first thing you hear is a story of a lad shot dead by paramilitaries on the way home from the pub. You go to work/school, go about your day, and put on the news at nine in the evening, where they have named the lad who was shot, and also report another attack, in which two more were killed. And this all really happened on more or less a daily cadence.

As mentioned previously though I cannot see a return to this, the general underlying feeling has changed dramatically since the early 90's. There is no appetite for going through any of this again. When you have lived through this, and look back in it, then you truly realise how horrific it was.

Hamsterchops · 07-05-2019 10:30am

skallywag wrote: »

It is difficult to bring the point across properly to those who did not live though these times I think.

When I say that there was an underlying empathy for the IRA amongst a large portion of the population (North & South) I am not talking about folk running around like mad screaming 'up the RA' etc., or even getting involved in discussions on the topic at work, or in the pub, etc. I am talking about those who would be viewed as 'ordinary decent people' let's say, but who would have held a certain sympathy or empathy towards the IRA if they were really forced to show their hand.

I had an interesting discussion with a historian about this topic some years ago, and he made the point that if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer.

A killing such as Lyra's would certainly still have disgusted people at that time, but attacks on the security forces, and in particular the British Army, were certainly viewed differently.

An important point to note though is that the situation during the 70's and 80's was not isolated pockets of sporadic violence as we see from the New IRA, but was rather relentless over a long period of time. You turned on the radio in the morning and the first thing you hear is a story of a lad shot dead by paramilitaries on the way home from the pub. You go to work/school, go about your day, and put on the news at nine in the evening, where they have named the lad who was shot, and also report another attack, in which two more were killed. And this all really happened on more or less a daily cadence.

As mentioned previously though I cannot see a return to this, the general underlying feeling has changed dramatically since the early 90's. There is no appetite for going through any of this again. When you have lived through this, and look back in it, then you truly realise how horrific it was.

Your suggestions (see bold type) are getting even worse

I am Irish, born in the 60s, grew up in Dublin and watched in horror as the troubles unfolded up the road in Northern Ireland. I can also quite certainly say that I never witnessed support or sympathy as an IRA car bomb went off and killed many people.

You quote "if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer"

I never witnessed this in school, college or in work, the reality being that the IRA were robbing banks down here, they were taking hostages, extorting and obviously killing lots of people, so I can't see how any Non Republican would have had any sympathy for the IRA as they watched another car bomb on the Six One news

I just hope that violence can be put away once and for all and not glorified as a way to gaining ones aims, on either side of the religious & political divide.

RIP Lyra McKee.

skallywag · 07-05-2019 12:04pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Your suggestions (see bold type) are getting even worse

I certainly do not disagree with you. It is not a topic that a lot of people that I know are comfortable talking about.

It was certainly the case though across large sections of the population in the Republic, and I have witnessed it myself first hand on quite a few occasions, particularly in rural areas of Leinster and Munster. I think that IRA activities in the 70s and 80s would seriously have been diminished if this sympathy had not existed in the Republic.

There were also quite a few folk during this time who simply turned a blind eye or asked no questions about certain things, whereas today I believe that this would not be tolerated.

ILoveYourVibes · 07-05-2019 12:17pm

Hamsterchops wrote: »

Your suggestions (see bold type) are getting even worse

I am Irish, born in the 60s, grew up in Dublin and watched in horror as the troubles unfolded up the road in Northern Ireland. I can also quite certainly say that I never witnessed support or sympathy as an IRA car bomb went off and killed many people.

You quote "if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer"

I never witnessed this in school, college or in work, the reality being that the IRA were robbing banks down here, they were taking hostages, extorting and obviously killing lots of people, so I can't see how any Non Republican would have had any sympathy for the IRA as they watched another car bomb on the Six One news

I just hope that violence can be put away once and for all and not glorified as a way to gaining ones aims, on either side of the religious & political divide.

RIP Lyra McKee.

No one did then and no one does now. They need to stop.

NIMAN · 07-05-2019 12:24pm

skallywag wrote: »

I do not think that these people have any support worth talking about outside of some small local pockets in a limited number of areas, and whatever support may have been there is now going to be potentially damaged.

Unfortunately the local council elections in Derry disproved your point.

We all thought the same, but Gary Donnelly, an apologist for the New/Real/Continuity IRA (or whatever their latest revision is) topped the poll in his ward, with 1374 1st preference votes out of 7917 cast.

So thats nearly 1400 people of voting age who back him, and thats not including those outside of his ward too, so I think to say these people have no support is over optimistic. If they didn't drop votes after Lyra's murder, then when would they?

skallywag · 07-05-2019 12:28pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Unfortunately the local council elections in Derry disproved your point.

I was not aware of that, and it is indeed alarming.

janfebmar · 07-05-2019 12:35pm

skallywag wrote: »

I had an interesting discussion with a historian about this topic some years ago, and he made the point that if you scratch any Irishman who lived through this period deep enough then you would find some type of IRA supporter or sympathizer.

What rubbish. I too lived through the 70s , 80s etc in this country and most people I knew hated the pIRA. They kidnapped people, killed civilians, robbed banks, shot Gardai, etc. During the troubles no Sinn Fein td got elected, it was not until the late nineties. You think most Irish people supported Enniskillen and countless other atrocities?

07-05-2019 7:35pm

skallywag wrote: »

As shocking as all of this is, I still genuinely believe that we are not on track to return to the horror of the 70s and 80s. There was a certain underlying empathy towards the IRA during these times, although most folk would have been very reluctant to admit this either at the time or in present day. There is no stomach for any of this any more though amongst the general population.

I sincerely hope that we are not on track to return to the horror of the 70s and 80s.

However, I would disagree with your belief that we are not on track to return to violence.

The truth is, the vast majority of people on this Island did not want violence, or conflict.

Two minorities, one in each Community, did - and those two minorities engaged in tit for tat killings on an escalating basis until both Communities were ravaged by violence.

To say that it unlikely that the same could happen again, because the majority do not support violence, is to ignore the fact that the majority didn't want violence the first time, either - but it still happened.

Hopefully, lessons have been learned - but when you look at the lack of urgency to restore Stormont, coupled with the determination of both of the main parties not to compromise - then I am concerned that the whole unholy mess could easily start all over again.

Woman shot & killed in Derry being treated as a terrorist incident MOD WARNING IN OP

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