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Woman shot & killed in Derry being treated as a terrorist incident MOD WARNING IN OP

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    #392
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Francie Barrett wrote: »
    this sort of thing is an open goal for the guards to identify the people involved. I can guarantee that even our police force is on top of this.

    Maybe better to of arrested all of them at the start of their "march". It would of sent out a positive message & allowed the collection of data like photos, minus sunglasses, & DNA.


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    #393
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Discodog wrote: »
    Maybe better to of arrested all of them at the start of their "march". It would of sent out a positive message & allowed the collection of data like photos, minus sunglasses, & DNA.
    Maybe in an alternative universe. In this one you can't arrest people just for wearing combat trousers, forcibly take their mugshots and take samples of their DNA.


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    #394
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    recedite wrote: »
    Maybe in an alternative universe. In this one you can't arrest people just for wearing combat trousers, forcibly take their mugshots and take samples of their DNA.

    Yes I just read that, apparently, there aren't any incitement laws.

    So the "new" IRA & Saoradh wouldn't be illegal organisations ?

    Pity there was only one man brave enough to protest against them.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/republicans-stage-march-after-murder-38035393.html


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    #395
    Blowfish
    Registered Users Posts: 5,112 ✭✭✭Blowfish


    expectationlost wrote: »
    how active are they down here?
    Not sure about other areas, but Saoradh have some sort of presence in Tallaght alright as they have been putting up posters/stickers around the place for the past few years and had put up a couple of banners over the past few weeks advertising the march yesterday.

    It's hard to tell from that how many of them there are though, it could be a good few or could just as easily be a couple of loons.


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    #396
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Discodog wrote: »
    Yes I just read that, apparently, there aren't any incitement laws.

    So the "new" IRA & Saoradh wouldn't be illegal organisations ?

    Pity there was only one man brave enough to protest against them.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/republicans-stage-march-after-murder-38035393.html
    There are incitement laws, but walking down the street does not breech them.
    From the link..
    Up to 150 men and women in military fatigues, their faces covered by berets and sunglasses, paraded outside the GPO.
    Saoradh, which denies it is a mouthpiece for the New IRA, issued a self-serving statement within 12 hours of Ms McKee's murder, blaming it on "Crown Forces".
    For decades we had something very similar...
    men and women in military fatigues, their faces covered by berets and sunglasses, paraded outside the GPO.
    Sinn Fein, which denies it is a mouthpiece for the Provisional IRA, issued a self-serving statement within 12 hours of X's murder, blaming it on "Crown Forces".
    For a long time Gerry was not allowed to speak on RTE, but he was allowed to speak on BBC.
    We all know when two organisations are two sides of the same coin, but it can become a question of free speech versus the risk of having an overly authoritarian state. Clamping down on freedom is not always the answer.


    Ideally the marchers would have been heckled and jeered by the general public. Respect to that one brave man in the video, standing resolute on the white line in the middle of the road.


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    #397
    Lavinia
    Registered Users Posts: 8,089 ✭✭✭Lavinia


    one good and cool headed article

    https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-the-death-of-lyra-mckee-1.3865975


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    #398
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    recedite wrote: »
    There are incitement laws, but walking down the street does not breech them.
    From the link..
    For decades we had something very similar...For a long time Gerry was not allowed to speak on RTE, but he was allowed to speak on BBC.
    We all know when two organisations are two sides of the same coin, but it can become a question of free speech versus the risk of having an overly authoritarian state. Clamping down on freedom is not always the answer.


    Ideally the marchers would have been heckled and jeered by the general public. Respect to that one brave man in the video, standing resolute on the white line in the middle of the road.

    I find it strange & disappointing that they weren't. The dividing line isn't whether groups condemn the shooting, it's when they say that it was "collateral damage" & that innocents always get caught up in wars.

    I thought that the Republicans had a strong network & should easily be able to stop these extremists who are damaging the Republican cause. Or is that, deep down many feel admiration for their protoges ? Can a crowd gather & throw petrol bombs, in the Creggan, without the "approval" of the IRA (or whatever they are called now) ?


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    #399
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Discodog wrote: »
    I find it strange & disappointing that they weren't.
    who says they weren't? were you there?


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    #400
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    expectationlost wrote: »
    who says they weren't? were you there?

    I have seen several videos & there appears to be one brave protester. Rotten eggs would of been good for Easter.


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    #401
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    Those jumped up fascist thugs marching down O’Connell Street yesterday should all be arrested and brought before the Special Criminal Court. There should be serious consequences for those people.


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    #402
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Discodog wrote: »
    I find it strange & disappointing that they weren't. The dividing line isn't whether groups condemn the shooting, it's when they say that it was "collateral damage" & that innocents always get caught up in wars.

    I thought that the Republicans had a strong network & should easily be able to stop these extremists who are damaging the Republican cause. Or is that, deep down many feel admiration for their protoges ? Can a crowd gather & throw petrol bombs, in the Creggan, without the "approval" of the IRA (or whatever they are called now) ?

    The "old" IRA disbanded 21 years ago.
    I've no doubt many of them are still around, but whether they have the ability to control this new group, or, indeed, whether it would be wise for them to do so if they do have that ability, is another question.

    My gut instinct is that it is the job of the PSNI. Armed groups on the streets is not something any of us ever want to see again.

    Getting Stormont functioning again would probably help, too.

    There's a reason this is happening again. In the absence of real leaders, it seems some young people are choosing to follow the wrong leader/s.

    Time for Arlene and Michelle to sit down, and sort out their differences.
    Grandstanding on the fence about Irish Gaeilge v. Scots Gallic isn't worth a life. Pass an act approving both, esp. since they're essentially different dialects of the same language - and then fill the leadership vacuum.

    It's what they were elected to do. Maybe this tragedy will prove to be enough of an impetus to stop the tribalism, and realise the we are all interdependent on this island called Ireland. We have to work together, it's time to find common ground, and respect the differences between the 2 cultures.


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    #403
    John2136
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭John2136


    There's a big difference between the youths who are rioting today and the youths say in the early 70s, the youths today are just little scumbags to be honest.


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    #404
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    Those jumped up fascist thugs marching down O’Connell Street yesterday should all be arrested and brought before the Special Criminal Court. There should be serious consequences for those people.

    Jaysus they’d hate losing a days wages being stuck in the court.


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    #405
    John2136
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭John2136


    Discodog wrote: »
    I find it strange & disappointing that they weren't. The dividing line isn't whether groups condemn the shooting, it's when they say that it was "collateral damage" & that innocents always get caught up in wars.

    I thought that the Republicans had a strong network & should easily be able to stop these extremists who are damaging the Republican cause. Or is that, deep down many feel admiration for their protoges ? Can a crowd gather & throw petrol bombs, in the Creggan, without the "approval" of the IRA (or whatever they are called now) ?

    To be honest no matter how strong a network they have there is always going to be collateral damage or someone in the organisation going alone.


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    #406
    Kallor
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Kallor


    I'm from the area and we dont condone what happened and there is no place for violence in our community. These people need to be caught and jailed.

    What I will add that the media are not reporting on is.
    The bullet ricocheted off the truck and hit this poor woman. Still murder in my opinion.

    Its was the army not the police who conducted this raid. The police were there but it was the army who raided this woman's house. She's is a 70 years old living alone and they busted in armed to the teeth and wrecked it. Staying for over 2 hours in her house. This is what cause the tension for the riot.

    We dont condone these scum. But the media are not highlighting the aggression of the army either, who are not even supposed to be in the north anymore.


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    #407
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,778 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Discodog wrote: »
    I have seen several videos & there appears to be one brave protester. Rotten eggs would of been good for Easter.
    why would people be carrying around rotten eggs? I say most people forget that this march happens each year.


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    #408
    ChikiChiki
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,950 ✭✭✭ChikiChiki


    malinheader wrote: »
    Great advertisement for tourists at Easter.
    Is it just me or do the ones marching come across as a kind of oddball looking bunch.

    They are likely a group of collective social outcasts trying to find somewhere to belong with fellow oddballs.


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    #409
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Kallor wrote: »
    I'm from the area and we dont condone what happened and there is no place for violence in our community. These people need to be caught and jailed.

    What I will add that the media are not reporting on is.
    The bullet ricocheted off the truck and hit this poor woman. Still murder in my opinion.

    Its was the army not the police who conducted this raid. The police were there but it was the army who raided this woman's house. She's is a 70 years old living alone and they busted in armed to the teeth and wrecked it. Staying for over 2 hours in her house. This is what cause the tension for the riot.

    We dont condone these scum. But the media are not highlighting the aggression of the army either, who are not even supposed to be in the north anymore.
    I doubt that. The army would be used by the police as backup if they were worried about organised resistance to a search, or a possible firefight. Its the same in any jurisdiction, anywhere in the world.


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    #410
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    Deleted User wrote: »

    There's a reason this is happening again.

    Throwing petrol bombs at people, as happened the other evening, and shooting a gun towards police lines is always wrong. It was wrong a few days ago and it was wrong 25 or 30 years ago. The people who indoctrinated the kids who fired the shots the other night in to thinking it was commendable or patriotic to fire at police lines, have a lot to answer for. Those 17 and 18 year olds were badly brought up, thats all.


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    #411
    Kallor
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭Kallor


    recedite wrote: »
    I doubt that. The army would be used by the police as backup if they were worried about organised resistance to a search, or a possible firefight. Its the same in any jurisdiction, anywhere in the world.

    You clearly dont live in the north then if this is what you think. The reality is very different here. Very different


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    #412
    TomasMacR
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 262 ✭✭TomasMacR


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Those 17 and 18 year olds were badly brought up, thats all.

    So it's the parents fault, it's as simple as that, absolutely nothing else. :confused:


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    #413
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    recedite wrote: »
    I doubt that. The army would be used by the police as backup if they were worried about organised resistance to a search, or a possible firefight. Its the same in any jurisdiction, anywhere in the world.

    The timing of the raid was poorly planned. Should be done by the police at early dawn. Going into the creggan to carry out a raid in the evening is reckless and would lead to violence


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    #414
    janfebmar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    TomasMacR wrote: »
    So it's the parents fault, it's as simple as that, absolutely nothing else. :confused:

    Not necessarily the parents fault, but the fault of those who influenced the kids in to thinking it was commendable or patriotic to fire at police lines. It was not a few nights ago, or 25 or 30 years ago either.

    The kids were not born as murderers.


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    #415
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    zapitastas wrote: »
    The timing of the raid was poorly planned. Should be done by the police at early dawn. Going into the creggan to carry out a raid in the evening is reckless and would lead to violence

    Depends on what information they had.
    Maybe they were told that stuff was being moved that night and maybe the stuff included the gun that was used in the murder.


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    #416
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Kallor wrote: »
    I'm from the area and we dont condone what happened and there is no place for violence in our community. These people need to be caught and jailed.

    What I will add that the media are not reporting on is.
    The bullet ricocheted off the truck and hit this poor woman. Still murder in my opinion.

    Its was the army not the police who conducted this raid. The police were there but it was the army who raided this woman's house. She's is a 70 years old living alone and they busted in armed to the teeth and wrecked it. Staying for over 2 hours in her house. This is what cause the tension for the riot.

    We dont condone these scum. But the media are not highlighting the aggression of the army either, who are not even supposed to be in the north anymore.

    I was wondering what caused things to kick off.

    I was also wondering why in the videos, what I assumed to be police were wearing balaclava type headgear.

    Now I'm also wondering what the army were doing there. I thought they were gone from N.I.
    recedite wrote: »
    I doubt that. The army would be used by the police as backup if they were worried about organised resistance to a search, or a possible firefight. Its the same in any jurisdiction, anywhere in the world.

    Recedite, genuine question, why would the police expect organised resistance by a 70 year old woman? (assuming that this is what happened?)

    Why did they enter the creggan in the evening, with soldiers?

    I'm not attempting to justify, in any way, shape, or form, what happened.
    The responsibility for the shooting lies with the gunman, and who ever provided the gun.

    But neither do I think a solution will be found without understanding the nuances of what triggered this tragedy.

    The reality is, the GFA ended a civil war that the vast majority of both communities never wanted in the first place.

    We need to learn the lessons to make sure that is never allowed to happen again - and a good starting point would be understanding what the hell is going on - and why!
    janfebmar wrote: »
    Throwing petrol bombs at people, as happened the other evening, and shooting a gun towards police lines is always wrong. It was wrong a few days ago and it was wrong 25 or 30 years ago. The people who indoctrinated the kids who fired the shots the other night in to thinking it was commendable or patriotic to fire at police lines, have a lot to answer for. Those 17 and 18 year olds were badly brought up, thats all.

    It would be nice if it were that simple, wouldn't it?

    But logic dictates that people who overwhelmingly voted for peace don't suddenly forget the dangers they lived through, and fail to teach their kids how awful it really was.

    So, again, what is simmering under the surface, and what can be done to solve the issues?
    Kallor wrote: »
    You clearly dont live in the north then if this is what you think. The reality is very different here. Very different

    Half the problem is that neither the Irish, nor the British people have a clue what life is like in the North.
    I remember trying to explain to my kids what things used to be like during the troubles, and how at certain times, you could still cut the tension with a knife. It went straight in one ear, and out the other, until my daughter got caught in traffic during an altercation in "marching season". She was absolutely shell shocked to see armed police, tear gas, and large groups knocking the daylights out of each other.
    But until you experience it, it's very hard to understand.

    The tensions in the North are not reported on. You'll hear nothing more than a one liner on the news, if that.

    I don't know how to solve that, but I remain convinced that until leaders are found who can communicate nuetrally with ALL the people, then there will never be true peace.
    Neutral journalism would also help, but that doesn't exist either.

    And, yet, the people overwhelmingly want peace. So, there's real danger right now - but there's also hope.

    Now if only we could get the politicians to the same level of progress as the people, a a forum somewhere where moderates from both sides could meet, maybe, just maybe, we could avoid another disaster?


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    #417
    John2136
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭John2136


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Throwing petrol bombs at people, as happened the other evening, and shooting a gun towards police lines is always wrong. It was wrong a few days ago and it was wrong 25 or 30 years ago. The people who indoctrinated the kids who fired the shots the other night in to thinking it was commendable or patriotic to fire at police lines, have a lot to answer for. Those 17 and 18 year olds were badly brought up, thats all.

    Wrong today, wrong 25 or 30 years ago, wrong a 100 years ago, wrong 300 years ago its always wrong in some people's eyes.


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    #418
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    zapitastas wrote: »
    The timing of the raid was poorly planned. Should be done by the police at early dawn. Going into the creggan to carry out a raid in the evening is reckless and would lead to violence

    There should never be anywhere here or the UK where a Police raid causes riots & death. Otherwise you have no go zones & criminality.


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    #419
    Discodog
    Registered Users Posts: 15,857 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    John2136 wrote: »
    Wrong today, wrong 25 or 30 years ago, wrong a 100 years ago, wrong 300 years ago its always wrong in some people's eyes.

    Are you going to add the obligatory "one man's terrorist ..........." ?


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    #420
    zapitastas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 498 ✭✭zapitastas


    Discodog wrote: »
    There should never be anywhere here or the UK where a Police raid causes riots & death. Otherwise you have no go zones & criminality.

    They should have thought of that 50 years ago when the police and army ignited a situation that caused havoc. Entering into an area where the security services are intensely disliked due to the slaughter of civilians then there is always going to be an issue


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    #421
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    zapitastas wrote: »
    They should have thought of that 50 years ago when the police and army ignited a situation that caused havoc. Entering into an area where the security services are intensely disliked due to the slaughter of civilians then there is always going to be an issue



    it would be good if you and anybody else who felt like it didnt keep excusing these people

    it would be very good indeed


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