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Madeleine McCann

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    #5582
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    cnocbui wrote: »
    Explain why the PJ didn't do a reconstruction while all relevant parties were still in PDL? Why did they wait almost a full year and after everyone relevant had returned to the UK before suggesting one? Why did they let the resort ship the two nannies off to Greece the next day?

    Perhaps mainly because the police investigation was hampered by a subsequent lack of co-operation from members of the group. Plus most of them had returned to the UK by Mid May. The McCanns scampered back to the UK by September after being made arguidos ...

    When it was asked that members of the group should return to take part in a reconstruction - they prevaricated and then didnt cooperate.


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    #5583
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


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    OwlsZat wrote: »
    The point I'm making is that Madeline may have died much earlier in the night. Madeline last seen at 5.30. Could easily have been dead by 7 allowing loads of time to hide the body. There might even have enough time left over to reconvene in the apt and write out a version of events!

    Can you honestly imagine your little girl goes missing so you sit down and write out an exact timeline of events on a colouring book? If it's the truth. Why does it need to be written down?

    It needs to be written down because they needed a hard written version of events to reherse from. A version of events that didnt make them look like neglectful parents. They needed a script to regale to their friends and PR team during the night instead of going out looking. The exact thing you would do if you thought for a moment you had actually lost your daughter.


    https://shininginluz.wordpress.com/2014/11/02/when-was-madeleine-last-seen/

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/crimerocket.com/2019/03/20/its-the-simplest-question-of-all-where-was-madeleine-mccann-last-seen-can-you-answer-it/amp/

    https://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2009/09/crying-shame.html?m=1

    The other bizarre thing - is that there were two timelines produced by the group - and they are both different.


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    #5584
    OwlsZat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,510 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    MonkieSocks wrote: »
    If they were conspiring together, they would have rehearsed it, but they didn't.

    They wrote out the timeline of events on the night in question. Then when they agreed to do the reconstruction under media pressure a year later Jane gets it wrong and Gerry gets very annoyed with her to the point she that she starts crying. If someone genuinely couldn't remember and got it wrong. You wouldn't chew her out of.it. She got chewed by Gerry because she claimed to know exactly what she saw but contradicted Gerry twice over. He knew how serious that was.

    Your trying to say if there was an abduction you might not remember what side of a narrow road someone you know was on even though you susposidely walked right by them?

    I'm totally up for allowing for some inaccuracies but the problem here is unlikely Gerry, Jane is a terrible liar. This reconstruction was one of the single most revealing episodes of the lie.


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    #5585
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    gozunda wrote: »
    The other bizarre thing - is that there were two timelines produced by the group - and they are different.

    Nothing bizarre about it, it would be bizarre if the version of events were the same.


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    #5586
    hawkelady
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


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    Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »
    That amongst other things. Some of the suggestions are farcical i.e.
    They had local help to dispose of the body

    That Gerry McCann disposed of the body at sea and swam/rowed back in time for dinner at 8:30;

    That there has been a pact of silence between the Tapas 7 for the past 12
    years and not one has since come forward or caved under police questioning, leaving aside that it's extremely difficult for two people to keep a secret and virtually impossible for seven;

    That the body was kept in a fridge for three weeks undetected;

    That the McCann's moved the refrigerated body in a rental car while the world was watching them;


    You forgot the scenario of an adult sneaking into a holiday apartment while parents were randomly checking on the children and kidnap the eldest child out of 3 and left zero evidence. I mean, you go on about this theory like it happens every week ! Do you suggest there should be a notice on every holiday apt door stating not to leave your kids out of your sight as kidnappers will nick them ?
    Can you point me to other tourist children that were snatched and never heard off again ?


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    #5587
    OwlsZat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,510 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »
    Nothing bizarre about it, it would be bizarre if the version of events were the same.

    Read about reconstructions and why they are done. Conflicting accounts expose liars and normally land you in jail.

    https://www.newstalk.com/news/british-and-australian-murder-suspects-reconstruct-death-of-bali-police-officer-578079


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    #5588
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,956 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    OwlsZat wrote: »
    Read about reconstructions and why they are done. Conflicting accounts expose liars and normally land you in jail.

    https://www.newstalk.com/news/british-and-australian-murder-suspects-reconstruct-death-of-bali-police-officer-578079

    You have problems with reality. Evidence might land you in jail, conflicting witness accounts wouldn't.


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    #5589
    OwlsZat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,510 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    OwlsZat wrote: »
    Can people stop continually misusing the words proof and evidence.

    proof - evidence or argument establishing or helping to establish a fact or the truth
    evidence - the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid

    So proof is evidence which allow allows truth to be established and evidence is information or facts which allows us to establish the truth.

    While there isn't much physical evidence there's tones of other evidence collected by the PJ. Every single piece of information collected related to the case is evidence. Which each individual can decide if they believe there is proof that any conclusions can be drawn.

    Types+of+Evidence+Direct+evidence.jpg

    Just wanted to bring this back up as you might have missed it earlier on the meaning of the word evidence


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    #5590
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,956 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    hawkelady wrote: »
    You forgot the scenario of an adult sneaking into a holiday apartment while parents were randomly checking on the children and kidnap the eldest child out of 3 and left zero evidence. I mean, you go on about this theory like it happens every week ! Do you suggest there should be a notice on every holiday apt door stating not to leave your kids out of your sight as kidnappers will nick them ?
    Can you point me to other tourist children that were snatched and never heard off again ?

    Ben Needham?


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    #5591
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »
    Nothing bizarre about it, it would be bizarre if the version of events were the same.

    It is when the two timelines were both written on the night (on pieces of the torn cover of the missing childs activity book) and then seized by the police.


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    #5592
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    gozunda wrote: »
    It is bizarre indeed.

    Especially when the two timelines were both written down on the night (on pieces of the torn cover of the missing childs activity book) and then seized by the police.

    The groups initial accounts before police interviews of what they claimed happened plus these two timelines

    https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm

    Sand - head - sticking is not useful imo

    Sounds like a group of people making best efforts to document their movements in a frantic effort to find their missing child on any available piece of paper within arms reach. There is nothing unreasonable about that at all.


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    #5593
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    OwlsZat wrote: »
    Read about reconstructions and why they are done. Conflicting accounts expose liars and normally land you in jail.

    https://www.newstalk.com/news/british-and-australian-murder-suspects-reconstruct-death-of-bali-police-officer-578079

    Conflicting accounts completely normal and to be expected, especially when multiple people are involved.


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    #5594
    OwlsZat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,510 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »
    Sounds like a group of people making best efforts to document their movements in a frantic effort to find their missing child on any available piece of paper within arms reach. There is nothing unreasonable about that at all.

    A frantic effort to find a missing child would likely include actually searching. Spinning a yarn on the other hand....


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    #5595
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    OwlsZat wrote: »
    A frantic effort to find a missing child would likely incude searching. Spinning a yarn on the other hand....

    These are the same 7 people who are such criminal masterminds that they've been able to maintain this cover story for 12 years, but they write down that cover story on a piece of paper on the night of the disappearance for the police to find? Or is that also part of the master plan, to make you think their dumb and throw the cops off the scent, mess with their head?

    Regardless of the parents, but why would the Tapas 7 cover up the disappearance of their friends child for 12 years, what motivation would they have to do that?
    (Cue further wild conspiracy theories...)


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    #5596
    OwlsZat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,510 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    OwlsZat wrote: »
    Who said they are all involved? I'd suggest 4 or them know and 5 have suspicions.

    Posted in reply to you two pages back.


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    #5597
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »
    Sounds like a group of people making best efforts to document their movements in a frantic effort to find their missing child on any available piece of paper within arms reach. There is nothing unreasonable about that at all.

    Seriously? lol

    Two different timelines produced at the same time on the activity book of the missing child??? Handwriting appears to be the same. All this raises more questions than it answers tbh.

    That is unless you wish to inexplicabley excuse those who automatically need to be first excluded from further investigation.

    Very odd imo.


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    #5598
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »
    These are the same 7 people who are such criminal masterminds that they've been able to maintain this cover story for 12 years, but they write down that cover story on a piece of paper on the night of the disappearance for the police to find? Or is that also part of the master plan, to make you think their dumb and throw the cops off the scent, mess with their head? Regardless of the parents, but why would the Tapas 7 cover up the disappearance of their friends child for 12 years, what motivation would they have to do that?
    (Cue further wild conspiracy theories...)

    Hyperbole is not usefull. Bizarrely the timeline was written down twice and neither are the same. Btw It's just as possible that just a couple of people were involved. As for motivation - Loss of licence to practice and or children taken into care. Doesn't take a rocket scientist or 'conspiracy' (sic) to consider either of these possibilities...


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    #5599
    OwlsZat
    Registered Users Posts: 1,510 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    gozunda wrote: »
    Seriously? lol

    Two different timelines produced at the same time on the activity book of the missing child??? Handwriting appears to be the same. All this raises more questions than it answers tbh.

    That is unless you wish to inexplicabley excuse those who automatically need to be first excluded from further investigation.

    Very odd imo.

    Lying in statements is normal. Conflicts in eyewitness accounts is normal. Not actually searching for your missing child is normal. Cadaver/blood sensing dogs alerting in your property, in your car, on your clothes is normal. Intimidating witnesses is normal. Refusing to answer the questions of police is normal. Refusing to attend reconstructions is normal. Refusing to statistically test the DNA evidence using better methods is normal.

    This is just a normal case of a young child abducted by a normal gang of gentlemen. Absolutely nothing to see here. Yikes.


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    #5600
    hawkelady
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭hawkelady


    Something Else
    cnocbui wrote: »
    Ben Needham?

    The same Ben Needham that investigating officers believe he was killed in an accident at his grandparents house during renovations ? They believe he died the same day he disappeared and was moved and buried shortly thereafter .... sounds similar alright !!


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    #5601
    RollieFingers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭RollieFingers


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    People who think the McCanns were the cause of her death and disappearance, or that it was some combination of the tapas group. Do you think they are absolute criminal masterminds who got away with it? Or is it that there is some huge political cover up to prevent them being brought to justice? Or did the police mess up that much that it's obvious they did it but can't be prosecuted?


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    #5602
    TallyRand
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭TallyRand


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    The two different timelines of the tapas 7 are I think down to not wanting to look bad, a kid from their group had been kidnapped and imagine trying to make your selves not look as bad.....maybe a check every half hour was actually more than that but you don’t want to come out and stomp your feet admitting the total careless attitude that was prevalent.

    Human psychology to remember a “softer” timeline is very understandable to save some face


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    #5603
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,919 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Sorry now, that little child's disappearance is never going to be solved. But one thing I do know is that the parents were fully negligent. Three kids under the age of four left alone night after night. Unbelievable.

    That is the only FACT we will ever get from this tragedy. And there are no excuses for that ever.


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    #5604
    chicorytip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,107 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Something Else
    RollieFingers wrote:
    Haven't looked in this thread in a while because it just goes round in circles, but are people actually saying that because the McCanns allegedly aired their car boot out, that that is a sign they killed their daughter? Or that they just happened to have some unknown local accomplice that they gave a call to help conceal and dispose of the body? And this local accomplice has never ever been traced? That is just outrageous.

    Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote:
    That amongst other things. Some of the suggestions are farcical i.e. They had local help to dispose of the body

    Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote:
    That the body was kept in a fridge for three weeks undetected;

    Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote:
    That the McCann's moved the refrigerated body in a rental car while the world was watching them;


    There is no conclusive proof to discount any of these possibilities. There is a four hour timeframe between the last sighting of Madeleine at 6 pm at the kids play club (not proven beyond doubt) and when Kate mc Cann raised the alarm. Ample time for Gerry to arrange the removal of a body from the apartment with the help of a local man, already well acquainted with the couple, who was telephoned when a decision was made to stage a cover up and who had access to a vacant property containing a freezer located possibly as far as 40 kilometres from Praia Da Luz. The police would not know even where to begin looking in such a scenario. Note: Kate and Gerry had both deleted recent call history from their mobile phones by the time the police arrived. Who would even think of doing this if you were supposedly in a state of blind panic frantically searching for your missing child? Regarding the rented car a neighbour stated that the boot lid had been left open each night for an entire week. Why? I think it's safe to dismiss the paedophilic abduction theory at this stage. The most likely cause of death was accidental overdose or assault.


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    #5605
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    chicorytip wrote: »
    There is no conclusive proof to discount any of these possibilities. There is a four hour timeframe between the last sighting of Madeleine at 6 pm at the kids play club (not proven beyond doubt) and when Kate mc Cann raised the alarm. Ample time for Gerry to arrange the removal of a body from the apartment with the help of a local man, already well acquainted with the couple, who was telephoned when a decision was made to stage a cover up and who had access to a vacant property containing a freezer located possibly as far as 40 kilometres from Praia Da Luz. The police would not know even where to begin looking in such a scenario. Note: Kate and Gerry had both deleted recent call history from their mobile phones by the time the police arrived. Who would even think of doing this if you were supposedly in a state of blind panic frantically searching for your missing child? Regarding the rented car a neighbour stated that the boot lid had been left open each night for an entire week. Why? I think it's safe to dismiss the paedophilic abduction theory at this stage. The most likely cause of death was accidental overdose or assault.

    Why are you trying to prove a negative. There's no conclusive evidence to suggest that she wasn't abducted by aliens but you don't consider this as possibility.


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    #5606
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    cnocbui wrote: »
    Ben Needham?

    And the present conclusion of that disappearance and investigation by Detective Inspector Jon Cousins?
    It is my professional belief that Ben Needham died as a result of an accident near to the farmhouse in Iraklis where he was last seen playing. The recovery of this item, and its location, further adds to my belief that material was removed from the farmhouse on or shortly after the day that Ben disappeared."

    And yet when a similar theory of accidental death and hiding / or failure to find the body as has been mooted here - we witness absolute denial and hysterics by some. Funny that.


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    #5607
    RollieFingers
    Registered Users Posts: 2,635 ✭✭✭RollieFingers


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    chicorytip wrote: »
    There is no conclusive proof to discount any of these possibilities. There is a four hour timeframe between the last sighting of Madeleine at 6 pm at the kids play club (not proven beyond doubt) and when Kate mc Cann raised the alarm. Ample time for Gerry to arrange the removal of a body from the apartment with the help of a local man, already well acquainted with the couple, who was telephoned when a decision was made to stage a cover up and who had access to a vacant property containing a freezer located possibly as far as 40 kilometres from Praia Da Luz. The police would not know even where to begin looking in such a scenario. Note: Kate and Gerry had both deleted recent call history from their mobile phones by the time the police arrived. Who would even think of doing this if you were supposedly in a state of blind panic frantically searching for your missing child? Regarding the rented car a neighbour stated that the boot lid had been left open each night for an entire week. Why? I think it's safe to dismiss the paedophilic abduction theory at this stage. The most likely cause of death was accidental overdose or assault.

    Hmmm, I'm not so sure. Nobody can say conclusively what happened, obviously, so everything is a possibility, especially with such a lack of genuine, admissible evidence pointing towards anything except that she is gone. The parents or tapas group absolutely could be involved as you described but personally I can't see it.

    The idea that they had a local contact whom they could just ring up out of the blue to ask the quick favor of taking their child's dead body from their holiday apartment and disposing of or storing in a fridge until a later date. And had such quick and readily available access to a secure vacant property. And he was just like yeh grand, I'll be over in ten minutes with the van? And he had absolutely no problem being involved if they got it done so quickly and quietly. Could have happened, not for me though.


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    #5608
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    TallyRand wrote: »
    The two different timelines of the tapas 7 are I think down to not wanting to look bad, a kid from their group had been kidnapped and imagine trying to make your selves not look as bad.....maybe a check every half hour was actually more than that but you don’t want to come out and stomp your feet admitting the total careless attitude that was prevalent.

    Human psychology to remember a “softer” timeline is very understandable to save some face

    Otherwise known as lying ....


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    #5609
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Something Else
    RollieFingers wrote: »
    People who think the McCanns were the cause of her death and disappearance, or that it was some combination of the tapas group. Do you think they are absolute criminal masterminds who got away with it? Or is it that there is some huge political cover up to prevent them being brought to justice? Or did the police mess up that much that it's obvious they did it but can't be prosecuted?

    Neither tbh. Unfortunately they neither have to been 'criminal masterminds' or there to be any black helicopter conspiracy for the initial investigation to be derailed through lack of cooperation and/ or to have friends in the right places tbh.

    The problem with this case - is that there are more questions than answers ...


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    #5610
    EDit
    Registered Users Posts: 819 ✭✭✭EDit


    In my 40+ years on this planet I don’t think I’ve known a single person (including my best friends at different points in my life) who, if I asked them to help me dispose of a child’s body, wouldn’t tell me to **** off. If anyone asked me to do that for them, it would be my response

    The idea that these folks who holiday together just happened to all agree to aid in the disposal of a dead kid is just laughable


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    #5611
    MonkieSocks
    Registered Users Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭MonkieSocks


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    OwlsZat wrote: »
    They wrote out the timeline of events on the night in question. Then when they agreed to do the reconstruction under media pressure a year later Jane gets it wrong and Gerry gets very annoyed with her to the point she that she starts crying. If someone genuinely couldn't remember and got it wrong. You wouldn't chew her out of.it. She got chewed by Gerry because she claimed to know exactly what she saw but contradicted Gerry twice over. He knew how serious that was.

    Your trying to say if there was an abduction you might not remember what side of a narrow road someone you know was on even though you susposidely walked right by them?

    I'm totally up for allowing for some inaccuracies but the problem here is unlikely Gerry, Jane is a terrible liar. This reconstruction was one of the single most revealing episodes of the lie.

    You need to watch that video again.

    Jane started crying when she was talking the man she saw walk across the top of the street.
    ___________________

    Jane Tanner said she saw Gerry and Jez talking at that time. (Gerry had his back to her)

    Gerry said he was talking to Jez around the same time.

    Jez said he was talking Gerry around the same time.

    I would think Gerry McCann would be enormous stress on the night of the dissappearence and subsequently on the night of the reconstruction.

    =(:-) Me? I know who I am. I'm a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude (-:)=



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