Madeleine McCann

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cnocbui wrote: »

Do you know that network providers keep comprehensive records for years - effectively forever when any authority asks for details?

There can be no mystery about phone calls other than 'supposedly' the content. The Met and PJ would know exactly who rang whom, and when.

The PJ have actually logged and followed up on, just about every single mobile phone call in PDL at around the time of Madeleine's disappearance.

No blood found in the car, so BS.

Less do ya knows, and BS calling ya mardy twat. I've not the slightest understanding why people get emotional defending a viewpoint of a legal case. You'd swear you were implicated yourself. Grow up a bit.

Read the phone records or some analysis of them yourself. Obviously your not concerned by the fact Kate concealed lots of calls/messages or on the night their daughter "disappeared" didn't even bother searching.

A full analysis is also not possible because some of the phone's were pay-as-you-go.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PHONE_TEXTS.htm
http://maddiemccannmystery.forumotion.co.uk/t290-telephone-records-for-the-week-28th-april-to-4th-may-2007

The boot sample is critical. It might still solve the cold case.

https://www.9news.com.au/world/madeleine-mccann-dna-perlin-operation-grange-maddie-podcast/0e861bfc-e835-408d-9fbd-e795935aa553

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Looks like that TrueAllele/Perlin test from Cybergenetics had already been provided to the FSS.

Mark W. Perlin, Ph.D., MD Cybergenetics, Pittsburgh, PA

The British Forensic Science Service (FSS) has selected TrueAllele™ automated scoring for scaling up the UK National DNA Database.

Perlin also used samples from the FSS for some of the images here

https://www.promega.co.uk/~/media/files/resources/conference%20proceedings/ishi%2011/oral%20presentations/perlin.pdf

gozunda

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

The only tabloid reports being cited are the edited FFS results that were leaked to the media which you keep referring to. The FFS haven't retracted their report because there was no need to, their original report was massively qualified but the PJ selectively chose which parts of the report to publish.

The quote is from the actual ffs report. You should stop using tabloids for various daft 'interpretations' of that report which do not stand up to scrutiny btw.

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

Fact of the matter is the the FFS report proves nothing. Absolutely nothing. So why would you keep invoking this document as evidence. Nothing!

And that is the point my friend. Not 'invoking it as evidence' either lol. That's what the report says verbatim. And that is one of the main reasons why there are calls for the data to be reviewed and reanalysed considering the questionable methodology used etc. Glad you agree.

Ask yourself this why are some do reluctant to allow that the DNA may help bring some light to the case? I find that very strange tbh.

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

This is just hearsay and irrelevant. Next!
More wishy washy talk here, nothing of substance. Next!Nothing of substance here again.

Cant answer for those? Lol

gozunda

Something Else

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Looks like that TrueAllele/Perlin test from Cybergenetics had already been provided to the FSS.
Mark W. Perlin, Ph.D., MD Cybergenetics, Pittsburgh, Perlin also used samples from the FSS for some of the images here

The FSS used DNA profiling technique called LCN (low copy number). The FFS methodology and interpretation has increasingly been questioned as to its reliability.

FSS was now shut down in 2012 and is no longer in operation.

TrueAllele is a relatively modern method of DNA analysis. Nowhere in the FSS report of 2007 is there any reference to such testing

https://imageresizer.static9.net.au/2TLGmT9Qn0vIghLyyXs4nX2Fu-c=/1000x0/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fprod.static9.net.au%2Ffs%2F392b9fd5-607e-4056-8dbd-d4bdc9097c21

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

In order to carry out the determined by the 4.a Brigada of Department of Investigation Criminal of Policia Judiciara, concerning the process number 201/07.OGALGS, between 21:30h of 6th August, 2007, and 06:00h of 7th August, 2007, were recovered the following evidences in a vehicle Renault Scenic


Samples Taken from luggage area

7A. Head hair collected from the left seat of the luggage area.

7B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the left seat in the vehicle luggage area

7C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat

8A. Head hair collected from the right seat of the luggage area

8B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.

8C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.

9. Head hair collected from the vehicle luggage area.

10. Parts of the vehicle luggage area.

11. Fibres and possible head hair in the rear shelf/luggage cover.

Anyone know which sample does Perlin want to re-test.

McCanns had rented the car 25 days after Madeleine disappeared.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

MonkieSocks wrote: »

In order to carry out the determined by the 4.a Brigada of Department of Investigation Criminal of Policia Judiciara, concerning the process number 201/07.OGALGS, between 21:30h of 6th August, 2007, and 06:00h of 7th August, 2007, were recovered the following evidences in a vehicle Renault Scenic


Samples Taken from luggage area

7A. Head hair collected from the left seat of the luggage area.

7B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the left seat in the vehicle luggage area

7C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom in the left area of the back seat

8A. Head hair collected from the right seat of the luggage area

8B. Fibres and possible head hair from the back of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.

8C. Fibres and possible head hair from the bottom of the right seat in the vehicle luggage area.

9. Head hair collected from the vehicle luggage area.

10. Parts of the vehicle luggage area.

11. Fibres and possible head hair in the rear shelf/luggage cover.

Anyone know which sample does Perlin want to re-test.

McCanns had rented the car 25 days after Madeleine disappeared.

The swabs taken from where both the cadaver and blood dogs alerted in the boot. That's the money shot. If you can prove Madeline DNA is in that patch as residue. It's very reasonable to conclude they transferred her corpse in the boot and suggests it was frozen or wet.

"The evidence relates to swabs lifted from the McCann family’s holiday flat and hire car after sniffer dogs allegedly detected the “scent of death”.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/8771145/madeleine-mccann-cops-test-dna-samples/amp/

maebee

Accident happened, parents hid body

It's strange how the McCanns, who professed to wanting to leave no stone un-turned in the search for their daughter's disappearance, are not jumping on TrueAllele, who are trying to help solve the mystery of their daughter's disappearance.

hawkelady

Something Else

Can anyone confirm if the pm at the time ,Gordon brown, intervened and personally requested that the main investigator leading the disappearance be taken off the case? If this is true, it stinks of people pulling favors for reasons I can only assume is to protect the mccanns

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

hawkelady wrote: »

Can anyone confirm if the pm at the time ,Gordon brown, intervened and personally requested that the main investigator leading the disappearance be taken off the case? If this is true, it stinks of people pulling favors for reasons I can only assume is to protect the mccanns

Are you talking about the removal of Amaral, who was convicted of falsifying evidence?

The disgraced former head of the Madeleine McCann police investigation was today sensationally found guilty of falsifying evidence in a separate missing child case.

Goncalo Amaral, 49, who was thrown off the Madeleine inquiry, was given an 18-month suspended jail sentence by a court in Portugal.

Amaral was found guilty of falsifying evidence to help cover up for three of his officers who were accused of torture.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1186727/Madeleine-chief-detective-convicted-falsifying-evidence-separate-missing-child-case.html

Unless Gordon Brown was the presiding judge and involved in finding Amaral guilty, I doubt he had anything to do with it. It's pretty obvious you can't continue to allow a convicted criminal to head an investigation into the disappearance of young girl, with the worlds attention on the case, when he's acted corruptly in another case involving the disappearance of a young girl.

OwlsZat

OwlsZat wrote: »

The swabs taken from where both the cadaver and blood dogs alerted in the boot. That's the money shot. If you can prove Madeline DNA is in that patch as residue. It's very reasonable to conclude they transferred her corpse in the boot and suggests it was frozen or wet.

"The evidence relates to swabs lifted from the McCann family’s holiday flat and hire car after sniffer dogs allegedly detected the “scent of death”.

www.thesun.co.uk/news/8771145/madeleine-mccann-cops-test-dna-samples/amp/

Correct me if wrong, but in the documentary it was explained that the McCann's didn't have that car the whole time - they rented it after she was abducted?

v638sg7k1a92bx

howmuchunder wrote: »

Correct me if wrong, but in the documentary it was explained that the McCann's didn't have that car the whole time - they rented it after she was abducted?

Correct. But still people will suggest that somehow the parents managed to hide her body in a fridge undetected for three weeks, in a foreign country, and then move and dispose of the body while the police and world's media were watching them.

It's so farcical that no matter what facts or logic you present to these people, they will spin that into another conspiracy i.e. that there was a government cover up etc.

hawkelady

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

Correct. But still people will suggest that somehow the parents managed to hide her body in a fridge undetected for three weeks, in a foreign country, and then move and dispose of the body while the police and world's media were watching them.

It's so farcical that no matter what facts or logic you present to these people, they will spin that into another conspiracy i.e. that there was a government cover up etc.

Can you tell me why the mccanns felt the need to leave the boot of their rented car open for a few days, even over night? Strange wouldn’t you think?

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

hawkelady wrote: »

Can you tell me why the mccanns felt the need to leave the boot of their rented car open for a few days, even over night? Strange wouldn’t you think?

I have no idea who harmed Madeleine or how she happened to be missing . I am open to all opinions and none of us know for sure
But just to answer your post , my son spilled milk in his boot a few years ago . It was in hot weather and after days of not noticing the spill suddenly the car boot absolutely stank to high heaven
He had to open the boot as much as he could for a few days . Now imagine it with a few rubbish bags that might have leaked and in the heat would absolutely stink
Not every smell in a car that needs a good airing is a dead body .

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

maebee wrote: »

It's strange how the McCanns, who professed to wanting to leave no stone un-turned in the search for their daughter's disappearance, are not jumping on TrueAllele, who are trying to help solve the mystery of their daughter's disappearance.

Further testing of supposed genetic material from the car serves no purpose in finding Madeline. If the testing methods used in 2007 were flawed, then how can anyone confidently state that present methods aren't also flawed and that in another 10 years further advances won't reveal that 2019 methods were based on bad science?

Back in 2007, a lot of commentators would have been happy to find the McCanns guilty on the basis of DNA testing methods which some are now saying were unreliable.

I think the only safe course with DNA testing is to legally disallow any testing methods used for fringe samples that are impure or without a a complete sequence.

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

hawkelady wrote: »

Can you tell me why the mccanns felt the need to leave the boot of their rented car open for a few days, even over night? Strange wouldn’t you think?

Can you provide the name of this supposed witness and link to the PJ files where their testimony was given?

hawkelady

Something Else

iamwhoiam wrote: »

I have no idea who harmed Madeleine or how she happened to be missing . I am open to all opinions and none of us know for sure
But just to answer your post , my son spilled milk in his boot a few years ago . It was in hot weather and after days of not noticing the spill suddenly the car boot absolutely stank to high heaven
He had to open the boot as much as he could for a few days . Now imagine it with a few rubbish bags that might have leaked and in the heat would absolutely stink
Not every smell in a car that needs a good airing is a dead body .

Fair enough point. Agree with the not every smell is a dead body but when a cadaver dog alerts to the same boot ads some weight to it.

v638sg7k1a92bx

hawkelady wrote: »

Fair enough point. Agree with the not every smell is a dead body but when a cadaver dog alerts to the same boot ads some weight to it.

We've covered this numerous times. The cadaver dogs are a red herring and not reliable evidence in their own right. To accept the cadaver do theory, you would also have to accept that the parents concealed a body for three weeks, undetected, in a foreign country, while the police and world media are watching them.

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

We've covered this numerous times. The cadaver dogs are a red herring and not reliable evidence in their own right. To accept the cadaver do theory, you would also have to accept that the parents concealed a body for three weeks, undetected, in a foreign country, while the police and world media are watching them.

Something that people miss is she didn't have to be in the boot for that reaction from the dog ,

If the clothes she died in (if she did die) where in the boot for a period of time the dogs would react the same, ,

If it was the parent's the logically answer is they bins that night that went to landfill , It takes a minute to take a bin out ,

Bins is a risky option but one that 100% is possible of working , Remember no one is clamming there criminal masterminds, they could have just got lucky

I believe in these things the answer is always staring you in the face

They kept her clothes then decide they need to get rid of them and they disposed of using the car ,They used the car to dispose of rubbish in the bump a number of times ,

If she was taken it was alone wolf to hard for a trafficking gang to keep it quite this long , someone would look for the reward money or use the info for leverage,

Boom_Bap

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Something that people miss is she didn't have to be in the boot for that reaction from the dog ,

If the clothes she died in (if she did die) where in the boot for a period of time the dogs would react the same, ,

Not trying to nit pick, it's clothes that she or anyone else died in. The dogs don't pick up the scent of Madeline alone.

v638sg7k1a92bx

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I believe in these things the answer is always staring you in the face

How about the most obvious one, that somebody walked into the apartment, picked up the child and walked out???

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote: »

How about the most obvious one, that somebody walked into the apartment, picked up the child and walked out???

I don't see why that is more obvious that other theory ,

A person walking out with her had the same chance of being seen as a parent walking over to the bin's with a sack ,

Infact a person adducting her had more of a chance of being seen ,

For instance if your an adductor and 4 people check the room every 20 minutes. there are 4 times in 80minutes the you can be spotted ,

If Gerry and Kate done it THEY only have to worry about being spotted 2 times in 80 minutes ,

Again putting a bag in a bin takes 1- 2 minutes max ,

Don't forget its also more likely when a child goes missing that it is a person know to them that has taken them ,

So its more probably it was the parents but you constantly pretend you know otherwise,

Could she have been taken by someone they didn't know yes of course but it is a lot less likely,

iamwhoiam

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

There is no way those kids were checked every 20 minutes .

yourdeadwright

Accident happened, parents hid body

Boom_Bap wrote: »

Not trying to nit pick, it's clothes that she or anyone else died in. The dogs don't pick up the scent of Madeline alone.

That is correct

MonkieSocks

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

A dog alert on its own is not considered evidence on its own and the reasons for this are fundamentally clear -

EVRD dogs can tell us that they can smell "something", but not "what" or "who" that might be.

This is further complicated by the ease of scent transferal and the fact that the scent can linger for years.

The dogs in the Shannon Matthews case alerting to the "scent of death" on second-hand furniture bought in a shop, which had come from a house where someone had died.

None of the dog alerts in the Shannon Matthews case turned out to be related to the case.

Shannon Matthews was found alive.

Additionally, the proven error rate of sniffer dogs is significant and proves that it is not an exact science upon which we can rely to charge anyone with a serious crime.

It should be remembered that as medical doctors, both of the McCanns are likely to come into contact with corpses.

At the time Kate was a GP.

In some incidents where a person is under the care of their GP, dies under care at home.

That said GP would come in. examine the body and then go through the process of Death Notification Certification.

__________________________________

The family of the deceased then has to get this registered to get a Death Certificate

In Ireland:

A death can be registered in the office of any Registrar of Births, Marriages and Death,

cnocbui

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't see why that is more obvious that other theory ,

A person walking out with her had the same chance of being seen as a parent walking over to the bin's with a sack ,

Infact a person adducting her had more of a chance of being seen ,

For instance if your an adductor and 4 people check the room every 20 minutes. there are 4 times in 80minutes the you can be spotted ,

If Gerry and Kate done it THEY only have to worry about being spotted 2 times in 80 minutes ,

Again putting a bag in a bin takes 1- 2 minutes max ,

Don't forget its also more likely when a child goes missing that it is a person know to them that has taken them ,

So its more probably it was the parents but you constantly pretend you know otherwise,

Could she have been taken by someone they didn't know yes of course but it is a lot less likely,

That's possibly because you are not willing to apply Occam's Razor due to bias.

I can provide at least 4 examples of criminals entering homes and either kidnapping or raping daughters while the parent/s were actually in the house. Can you provide a single instance of parents covering up the death of their child while on holiday, keeping the child's body in a freezer for almost a month and then disposing of it?

v638sg7k1a92bx

When you say:

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I believe in these things the answer is always staring you in the face

and then you go on to explain a long convoluted answer follows:

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I don't see why that is more obvious that other theory ,

A person walking out with her had the same chance of being seen as a parent walking over to the bin's with a sack ,

Infact a person adducting her had more of a chance of being seen ,

For instance if your an adductor and 4 people check the room every 20 minutes. there are 4 times in 80minutes the you can be spotted ,

If Gerry and Kate done it THEY only have to worry about being spotted 2 times in 80 minutes ,

Again putting a bag in a bin takes 1- 2 minutes max ,

Don't forget its also more likely when a child goes missing that it is a person know to them that has taken them ,

So its more probably it was the parents but you constantly pretend you know otherwise,

Could she have been taken by someone they didn't know yes of course but it is a lot less likely,

Do you realise how difficult it is to kill and dispose of a body without being detected, especially in a country and a terrain that you are not familiar with?

If you think or consider that the McCanns were responsible for the disappearance of their daughter, then by default you have to accept that the answer is not staring you in the face.

gozunda

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

That's possibly because you are not willing to apply Occam's Razor due to bias.

I can provide at least 4 examples of criminals entering homes and either kidnapping or raping daughters while the parent/s were actually in the house. Can you provide a single instance of parents covering up the death of their child while on holiday, keeping the child's body in a freezer for almost a month and then disposing of it?

On that.

Firstly the use of the first scenario is meaningless for the reason that the child was not at 'home' nor were the parents 'actually in the house'

Claiming that because there were other children abducted - everyone should then accept your conclusion on this issue does not follow.

Using such a false dichotomy fallacy so it looks like there are only two choices also makes any such argument redundant tbh. For the reason that using that fallacy is a blatant attemp to eliminate that one cherry picked scenario, so it seems that we are left with only one option: the one you want for us to pick in the first place.

It remains there are a number of different options, not just two—the issue of how the child disappeared remains unsolved. In attempting to explain this a number of possibilities have been presented and discussed and not only the one of the fridge / freezer which you appear to be obsessed with for some strange reason to the exclusion of all other possibilities

Addendum:
As to Occam's razor - this theorises that simpler solutions are more likely to be correct than complex ones.

However Occam's razor would normally only be used to adjudicate between theories that have already passed theoretical scrutiny tests and are equally well-supported by evidence.

So far in this case neither of those criteria have been met in respect with any of the listed scenarios imo.

gozunda

Something Else

cnocbui wrote: »

Further testing of supposed genetic material from the car serves no purpose in finding Madeline. If the testing methods used in 2007 were flawed, then how can anyone confidently state that present methods aren't also flawed and that in another 10 years further advances won't reveal that 2019 methods were based on bad science?

Back in 2007, a lot of commentators would have been happy to find the McCanns guilty on the basis of DNA testing methods which some are now saying were unreliable.

I think the only safe course with DNA testing is to legally disallow any testing methods used for fringe samples that are impure or without a a complete sequence.

So you are saying that these new techniques shouldn't be used because:

• They won't find the child anyway

• Theres no point in doing anything because it didnt work the first time

• That such testing should be hamstrung by populous opinion before it is even contemplated?

Eh?

Let me ask why would any police force try and solve any such cold case?

The advances in DNA detection and identification have been used to solve many cold cases is a fact. I believe the current criticism is not that such methods 'were flawed' (sic) but that the interpretation of the results were limited by the methods used.

New advances means that such limitations have been removed.

It's a fact that the retesting of the data may very well help the investigation find out what happened. It could even completly exonerate any likley or previous suspects.

It is immaterial whether you believe that
"a lot of commentators would have been happy to find the McCanns guilty" or otherwise. Thankfully populist opinion is not part of any European legal system afaik.

OwlsZat

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

The armchair detective videos on YouTube are all worth watching. Do your own DD.

chicorytip

Something Else

Tristen Hissing Typhoon wrote:

We've covered this numerous times. The cadaver dogs are a red herring and not reliable evidence in their own right. To accept the cadaver do theory, you would also have to accept that the parents concealed a body for three weeks, undetected, in a foreign country, while the police and world media are watching them.

The body could have been removed and concealed by the parents before they raised the alarm. This could have been accomplished with the help of somebody local, already known to the couple who perhaps had access to a vacant property which contained a freezer. It's not clear whether their entire movements were being monitored by police during the period beginning three weeks after the disappearance when they were driving the hired car and staying in a rented villa. They were no longer formal suspects at that stage so it's unlikely. An opportunity to finally dispose of the corpse could have arisen.