Madeleine McCann

Phoebas · 19-03-2019 06:34PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Whatever you say. Either the parents neglected the kids which led to some tragedy, or she was abducted.

I have no problem with them not being suspects anymore, but the neglect thing really gets me I have to say. Sorry about that, it's kind of a gut instinct thing.

There is no equivalence whatsoever between these two things.

I get that many people are highly critical of the McCann's leaving the children unattended, but that doesn't make them in any way responsible for the abduction. The person who abducted her is wholly responsible for that.

Phoebas · 19-03-2019 06:39PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

SusieBlue wrote: »

I don't think think the parents are involved, because of the absence of any actual reasonable, legitimate timeline in which Kate & Gerry could have killed her and gotten rid of the body.
Not because I blindly think they're innocent.

If I could see a timeline in which they could have committed what they are accused of I'd be all ears.

I think leaving those kids alone was awful but its getting so repetitive and boring to see it stated over and over again, this far into the thread.
Especially when its used as some sort of trump card to prove their guilt.

This. The sequence of events that allows the McCann's to be responsible is improbable to the point of being virtually impossible outside the movies.

I think people see a set of unknowns, see 'bad' parents and fill in the gaps without really thinking about it.

Creol1 · 19-03-2019 06:40PM

Something Else

SusieBlue wrote: »

My theory is that they were being watched.
It was written in the restaurant reservations book that the Tapas group had a specific table block booked at a specific table for the whole week.

It was noted in the book that the specific table was needed because the parents were going to be dining while their kids were in bed in the apartments.
This book was accessible by the waiters, bartenders, cleaners and not hidden from the general public.
Anyone could have seen this note.

All it would have taken would have been a day or two of observation to establish the routine.
Its widely accepted that the McCann apartment was the most vulnerable as it had street access.
I think someone sinister learned that they were leaving their children alone, watched, and took their opportunity.

I believe she was taken out of PdeL almost immediately.
Where to, I don't know. But I don't believe she was there for long after she was taken.

I find this scenario far more believable and reasonable than Kate and/or Gerry murdering their child, getting the other partner on board with it, dumping a body in an unfamiliar location and then carrying about their business as usual until they feigned the "abduction".
It becomes even less believable when you consider that some think the Tapas group were also involved in the cover up, would you lie for your friend if they murdered their own kid?

And lastly, they persist on bringing media attention to it over a decade later. Everyone would have long forgotten about Madeleine if her parents hadn't persisted in keeping her name in the public domain over the last few years.
Why would they keep attracting attention to themselves if they were in any way responsible?

The worst things in the world have been said about them, and some of it deservedly so, because they were STUPID to leave the kids alone.

But why would they keep dragging this negative attention, this media intrusion, this judgment from the court of public opinion on themselves & their twins unless they knew someone else was responsible for their child going missing?

Because they know they aren't responsible & they feel a massive burden of guilt for leaving Madeleine in a position where she could be taken from them.

How was the abductor able to access the reservation book, which, even if not under lock and key, would nonetheless have been behind a desk somewhere and so not easy to access? How would the abductor even have known that the parents were leaving to check on their children, as opposed to, say, going to the toilet, pick up something they had forgotten? Bear in mind they took turns. How would the abductor know which of the diners had children to check on, seeing as they never brought their children to dinner? There would have needed to be a team of people monitoring the family. If there was such a team acting suspiciously, you'd think some evidence of that would have come out by now. And how, having succeeded in conducting this extraordinary surveillance operation, did the abductor or abductors manage to make away with Madeleine without anyone noticing?

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 06:41PM

Phoebas wrote: »

There is no equivalence whatsoever between these two things.

I get that many people are highly critical of the McCann's leaving the children unattended, but that doesn't make them in any way responsible for the abduction. The person who abducted them is wholly responsible for that.

OH Yawn again. Surely if they had the kids with them (very common in Southern Med countries until very late at night), or stayed in the apartment and had a takeaway or whatever there would have been NO abduction possible surely.

That's my take on it anyway. As a person who visits Andalucia a few times a year I see little kids in buggies in restaurants all the time, or playing around until all hours. Very common and totally accepted there. When in Rome and all that!

Phoebas · 19-03-2019 06:42PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Creol1 wrote: »

How was the abductor able to access the reservation book, which, even if not under lock and key, would nonetheless have been behind a desk somewhere and so not easy to access?

Apparently it was in plain view - to the point that another holidaymaker at the resort said they were a bit peeved that the McCann group were able to block book the same table for the full week.

Sunflower 27 · 19-03-2019 06:43PM

Something Else

SusieBlue wrote: »

I don't think think the parents are involved, because of the absence of any actual reasonable, legitimate timeline in which Kate & Gerry could have killed her and gotten rid of the body.
Not because I blindly think they're innocent.

If I could see a timeline in which they could have committed what they are accused of I'd be all ears.

I think leaving those kids alone was awful but its getting so repetitive and boring to see it stated over and over again, this far into the thread.
Especially when its used as some sort of trump card to prove their guilt.

Well of course it isn't a trump card, nor should it be. But it is indicative of the behaviour of the parents and that's really all we have to go on.

No one saw an abductor, no one reported seeing a small child wandering around.

Again, I don't she was "killed" which has far more sinister connotations than accidental death.

We are all entitled to our opinions. In the same way you can't conceive the parents concealing a death, I can't let go of the fact the parents dined away from their children for so long. Anything could have happened to a toddler in 20 minutes. I can't imagine any parent being able to relax and enjoy themselves knowing that. Unless they were suitably comfortable knowing the children wouldn't wake.

This is one of those mysteries likely to persist. In saying that, I hope some day there is closure. People in the main tend to be either in one camp or the other. I don't think that's going to change either.

Creol1 · 19-03-2019 06:44PM

Something Else

SusieBlue wrote: »

This will be a peak low point of the thread

A low point is the opposite of a peak.

tretorn · 19-03-2019 06:45PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

SusieBlue wrote: »

Modern British & Irish attitudes towards child rearing are very similar.
I don't know what prehistoric culture you are talking about above but it certainly isn't reflective of modern day parenting in the UK, AT ALL.

Boarding schools are few and far between, leaving children outside to get some air in their prams hasn't been commonplace since the 1950's and certainly isn't common now.

Kate & Gerry were stupid to leave their children alone in a foreign country.
Lets get a bit of perspective here and not tar all British parents as cold, Victorian style disciplinarians just because it suits your line of thinking.
Especially when its COMPLETELY inaccurate.

British and Irish attitudes towards children are miles apart. Irish people are much more family orientated and you can see that even with the introduction of abortion In Ireland. Anyone in the UK can get an abortion at twenty four weeks with no questions asked and here in ireland the Government cant even get GPS to sign up to abortion no questions asked at twelve weeks.

There are very few Downs Children in the UK too, the condition is detected and the baby aborted and thats the end of it. British people mainly have two children so presumably any conceived unintentionally are dispatched in the nearest abortion clinic, Its Government policy to provide free abortions even very late in pregnancy because its cheaper to do this that pay child support, child support in the UK is also much less than child benefit here.

The UK tour group the . Mc Canns went with was a uK one and it sold itself on providing creche care, ie kids clubs services to professionals who took their children on holidays because really you couldnt just leave them at home with a few cereals and milk. Most Irish parents would never do what the Mc Canns and their friends did and neither would most other nationalities like the French or Italian or Spanish, they would eat early and bring the children along with them.

I cant imagine how frightened at four year old would be if she woke up in a strange place and neither of her parents were there, the Mc Canns didnt even stop to think of this, they wanted to relax and drink and eat as if they were a couple with no children.

I have friends who have nannied for British professional couples. They paid her well but she was responsible for everything to do with the children, she was with them for ten hours a day and she cooked all their meals, washed their clothes and did all the showers etc. She was told to give the children their tea at 530 every day and have them in bed by 6.30. The parents would arrive home then and eat their evening meal together, most of them were cold parents who had been shipped off to boarding school themselves and they intended to board their own children as soon as they were old enough.

Phoebas · 19-03-2019 06:47PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

OH Yawn again. Surely if they had the kids with them (very common in Southern Med countries until very late at night), or stayed in the apartment and had a takeaway or whatever there would have been NO abduction possible surely.

That's my take on it anyway. As a person who visits Andalucia a few times a year I see little kids in buggies in restaurants all the time, or playing around until all hours. Very common and totally accepted there. When in Rome and all that!

You can do a little thought experiment here.

Say an abductor is eventually caught and brought to trial. You are the trial judge. He asks for mitigation on the basis that the McCann's made it possible/easier for him and therefore his culpability is lessened.

By how much do you reduce his sentence?

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 06:51PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Creol1 wrote: »

How was the abductor able to access the reservation book, which, even if not under lock and key, would nonetheless have been behind a desk somewhere and so not easy to access? How would the abductor even have known that the parents were leaving to check on their children, as opposed to, say, going to the toilet, pick up something they had forgotten? Bear in mind they took turns. How would the abductor know which of the diners had children to check on, seeing as they never brought their children to dinner? There would have needed to be a team of people monitoring the family. If there was such a team acting suspiciously, you'd think some evidence of that would have come out by now. And how, having succeeded in conducting this extraordinary surveillance operation, did the abductor or abductors manage to make away with Madeleine without anyone noticing?

I think the abductor was known to someone working in the hotel, someone who would have had access to that book.
There was many reports of suspicious activity in the resort at the time, by hotel staff and by holiday makers.
All the abductor had to do was watch the apartments and establish the routine and take the child in between checks.
Two other children went missing around that time in not dissimilar circumstances, and in close proximity to Praia de Luz.

Sunflower 27 · 19-03-2019 06:51PM

Something Else

Phoebas wrote: »

You can do a little thought experiment here.

Say an abductor is eventually caught and brought to trial. You are the trial judge. He asks for mitigation on the basis that the McCann's made it possible/easier for him and therefore his culpability is lessened.

By how much do you reduce his sentence?

In what world would a judge reduce a sentence? It's a pointless experiment.

I really don't see your point. The children were neglected. I don't think many would disagree with that, whether you believe it was an abduction or not.

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 06:51PM

Phoebas wrote: »

You can do a little thought experiment here.

Say an abductor is eventually caught and brought to trial. You are the trial judge. He asks for mitigation on the basis that the McCann's made it possible/easier for him and therefore his culpability is lessened.

By how much do you reduce his sentence?

Your scenario is moot. One is either guilty or not. Mitigating factors might be mental health issues, loss of one's own child, etc. Not the parents' actions or innaction.

Just arrest the parents for neglect at the same time.

There was no abductor. I am entitled to my opinion also. Thanks.

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 06:53PM

Creol1 wrote: »

A low point is the opposite of a peak.

Nadir

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 06:57PM

tretorn wrote: »

British and Irish attitudes towards children are miles apart.

The UK tour group the . Mc Canns went with was a uK one and it sold itself on providing creche care, ie kids clubs services to professionals who took their children on holidays because really you couldnt just leave them at home with a few cereals and milk. Most Irish parents would never do what the Mc Canns and their friends did and neither would most other nationalities like the French or Italian or Spanish, they would eat early and bring the children along with them.

I cant imagine how frightened at four year old would be if she woke up in a strange place and neither of her parents were there, the Mc Canns didnt even stop to think of this, they wanted to relax and drink and eat as if they were a couple with no children.

I have friends who have nannied for British professional couples. They paid her well but she was responsible for everything to do with the children, she was with them for ten hours a day and she cooked all their meals, washed their clothes and did all the showers etc. She was told to give the children their tea at 530 every day and have them in bed by 6.30. The parents would arrive home then and eat their evening meal together, most of them were cold parents who had been shipped off to boarding school themselves and they intended to board their own children as soon as they were old enough.

I can see your points above to be honest. But I do not agree with the abortion element of your post, but that is just me, no reflection on you.

All inclusive holidays are very popular with UK parents, but I am not sure if they have the same allure here. Maybe they do. Am not in that market anymore TG!

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 06:58PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I think the abductor was known to someone working in the hotel, someone who would have had access to that book.
There was many reports of suspicious activity in the resort at the time, by hotel staff and by holiday makers.
All the abductor had to do was watch the apartments and establish the routine and take the child in between checks.
Two other children went missing around that time in not dissimilar circumstances, and in close proximity to Praia de Luz.

There is zero evidence of an abductor. If you have any, perhaps you might share.

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 06:58PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

tretorn wrote: »

British and Irish attitudes towards children are miles apart. Irish people are much more family orientated and you can see that even with the introduction of abortion In Ireland. Anyone in the UK can get an abortion at twenty four weeks with no questions asked and here in ireland the Government cant even get GPS to sign up to abortion no questions asked at twelve weeks.

There are very few Downs Children in the UK too, the condition is detected and the baby aborted and thats the end of it. British people mainly have two children so presumably any conceived unintentionally are dispatched in the nearest abortion clinic, Its Government policy to provide free abortions even very late in pregnancy because its cheaper to do this that pay child support, child support in the UK is also much less than child benefit here.

The UK tour group the . Mc Canns went with was a uK one and it sold itself on providing creche care, ie kids clubs services to professionals who took their children on holidays because really you couldnt just leave them at home with a few cereals and milk. Most Irish parents would never do what the Mc Canns and their friends did and neither would most other nationalities like the French or Italian or Spanish, they would eat early and bring the children along with them.

I cant imagine how frightened at four year old would be if she woke up in a strange place and neither of her parents were there, the Mc Canns didnt even stop to think of this, they wanted to relax and drink and eat as if they were a couple with no children.

I have friends who have nannied for British professional couples. They paid her well but she was responsible for everything to do with the children, she was with them for ten hours a day and she cooked all their meals, washed their clothes and did all the showers etc. She was told to give the children their tea at 530 every day and have them in bed by 6.30. The parents would arrive home then and eat their evening meal together, most of them were cold parents who had been shipped off to boarding school themselves and they intended to board their own children as soon as they were old enough.

I’m going to ignore the OT utter drivel about abortion, but the correct terminology is child with Down’s syndrome, not ‘downs children’.

The majority of British children are not routinely shipped off to boarding school and they haven’t been left outside in their prams for air all day since the 1950’s.
Those are the points I was addressing and they were both completly inaccurate.

Your anecdote about the nanny could have just as easily happened here, in fact similar working conditions were revealed when the au pair scandal came out a few years ago.
British and Irish modern parenting is very similar.

CPTM · 19-03-2019 06:59PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cgcsb wrote: »

Your theory avoids the issue of sedation though, the twins were out for the count for the rest of the night and Madeline was able to walk out the patio door and have a chance encounter with an opportunistic peadophile.

To snowball of your theory, could someone who knew the place very well have encouraged her to leave the flat, perhaps someone who worked at the kids club.

Well one thing for sure is that 1 of 3 scenarios did happen:

1) Madeleine left by herself and happened upon an opportunistic undesirable.

2) An opportunistic undesirable went into the apartment and took Madeleine through one exit or another

3) There was no one other than the parents involved in the disappearance.

3 is the least likely for me. Firstly, these are parents that wanted more kids so much they went through IVF. Also, I can't get past what they did with the body - these are people on their hols with no car on the night and no equipment such as spades to dig with or smartphones to help them find a place. They are also people with about 5-10 minutes of time before needing to get back to the table, after which the entire world would descend on their doorstep to examine them and the lands around them.

So that leaves me with 1 or 2. Since I realisied the shutter didn't open from the outside, and from looking at the side gate on the street which is surrounded by high trees, I think it would be incredibly difficult for someone outside to see who is in the apartment. The other adults in the McCann group were also regularly coming and going checking on their kids.

So my latest guess is that the friend of McCanns (Oldfield was it?) came into the apartment, woke up Madeleine who thought it was Gerry. She saw him leaving and decided to follow him out down to the pool (She had woken up the other times she was checked on and wandered out of the bedroom which explains the open bedroom door). Meanwhile Oldfield went to check on his own kids and Madeleine got lost on the street, scared and unfortunately turned the wrong corner, perhaps being seen by someone from their balcony.

Edit - I'm not convinced about the sedation piece. Anyone with kids has told me how much they can sleep after a day on a sunny beach. Kate and Gerry seem to be a pretty social couple, so it might not be unusual for parties to have been held in their primary residence, making the twins able to sleep through commotion.

Edit 2! - It's worth noting that the side gate to access the balcony seems to require a key from the outside but a simple handle turn from the inside. Maybe she got out, realised she was lost, and couldn't get back in so panicked and started walking to find her parents.

Phoebas · 19-03-2019 07:00PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

In what world would a judge reduce a sentence? It's a pointless experiment.

In a world where the McCann's share culpability for what happened to their daughter. But they do not.

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I really don't see your point. The children were neglected. I don't think many would disagree with that, whether you believe it was an abduction or not.

It's reasonable to argue that they the children were neglected that week almost 12 years ago.
But can't people see the big picture here - Madeline McCann has been missing for almost 12 years.

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 07:03PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

There is zero evidence of an abductor. If you have any, perhaps you might share.

And there is zero evidence that her parents murderered her, that they hired a hitman to take her out, or that her family sold her to human traffickers in Morocco but that hasn’t stopped other people from letting their imaginations run wild with all the endless possibilities they can come up with.

I’ve explained how I’ve come to my theory; and given my reasoning for doing so.
If you refuse to acknowledge that I can’t help you.

Plumbthedepths · 19-03-2019 07:05PM

Phoebas wrote:

In a world where the McCann's share culpability for what happened to their daughter. But they do not.

The McCanns allowed the circumstances that contributed to her disappearance.

Phoebas · 19-03-2019 07:22PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The McCanns allowed the circumstances that contributed to her disappearance.

Yeah - that's a little like saying that a girl who wears a short skirt contributes to her rape.

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 07:24PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

And there is zero evidence that her parents murderered her, that they hired a hitman to take her out, or that her family sold her to human traffickers in Morocco but that hasn’t stopped other people from letting their imaginations run wild with all the endless possibilities they can come up with.

I’ve explained how I’ve come to my theory; and given my reasoning for doing so.
If you refuse to acknowledge that I can’t help you.

Ah you're alright, no need to be so dramatic. We are just shooting the breeze here at this stage. With due respect to the missing child of course.

I don't think I have ever said that the parents killed her. IMV they were neglectful for sure. But anyway, nothing can be ruled in or out really. There is no evidence for anything, but that engenders theories from all sides, naturally.

Plumbthedepths · 19-03-2019 07:31PM

Phoebas wrote:

Yeah - that's a little like saying that a girl who wears a short skirt contributes to her rape.

It's not and you know it. A fair comparison would be the parent of a child allowing their child to wander into traffic and blame the car driver for failing to stop.

Creol1 · 19-03-2019 07:46PM

Something Else

SusieBlue wrote: »

I think the abductor was known to someone working in the hotel, someone who would have had access to that book.
There was many reports of suspicious activity in the resort at the time, by hotel staff and by holiday makers.
All the abductor had to do was watch the apartments and establish the routine and take the child in between checks.
Two other children went missing around that time in not dissimilar circumstances, and in close proximity to Praia de Luz.

Where did the other abductions take place?

cnocbui · 19-03-2019 07:47PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

The McCanns allowed the circumstances that contributed to her disappearance.

If you had a child and put it in your car - knowing how dangerous transport by car is - and then your car get's T-boned by a large vehicle running a red light and your child dies, you would have allowed the circumstances that lead to the death of your child.

Plumbthedepths · 19-03-2019 07:50PM

cnocbui wrote:

If you had a child and put it in your car - knowing how dangerous transport by car is - and then your car get's T-boned by a large vehicle running a red light and your child dies, you would have allowed the circumstances that lead to the death of your child.

Only if you didn't strap your child in. It's a parent's duty to keep their child as safe as they can. This is why we hold a child's hand near the road, strap them into their car seat and not leave them on their own and go off for wine/ nibbles.

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 07:55PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Creol1 wrote: »

Where did the other abductions take place?

One was in Figeuira, just 7 miles from where Madeleine was taken.

S. Goodspeed · 19-03-2019 07:59PM

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Only if you didn't strap your child in. It's a parent's duty to keep their child as safe as they can. This is why we hold a child's hand near the road, strap them into their car seat and not leave them on their own and go off for wine/ nibbles.

Not to get too philosophical about things but in most cases society has fairly arbitrarily decided what standard safety protocols are e.g safety belts in a car are required but helmets and roll bars aren’t even though they would help in a significant number of cases. Leaving your child asleep in a locked apartment in the western world doesn’t seem like outrageously reckless behaviour to me.

Plumbthedepths · 19-03-2019 08:02PM

S. Goodspeed wrote:

Leaving your child asleep in a locked apartment in the western world doesnâ€™t seem like outrageously reckless behaviour to me.

Wasn't locked to begin with and children especially that young should never be left alone.

cnocbui · 19-03-2019 08:04PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Wasn't locked to begin with and children especially that young should never be left alone.

Whoops! - my bad.

Madeleine McCann

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