Madeleine McCann

cgcsb · 19-03-2019 05:44PM

Something Else

SusieBlue wrote: »

Modern British & Irish attitudes towards child rearing are very similar.

I actually don't think that's accurate at all, but it's somewhat off topic.

SusieBlue wrote: »

Kate & Gerry were stupid to leave their children alone in a foreign country.
Lets get a bit of perspective here and not tar all British parents as cold, Victorian style disciplinarians just because it suits your line of thinking.
Especially when its COMPLETELY inaccurate.

Whatever about British parents in general, Kate and Gerry were stone cold to their kids, as were their table of friends who treated their own kids with equal disregard. They claimed it was part of their culture to be like this. But the world found it shocking.

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 05:45PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

I'm not saying you can't say anything. Say what you like. I'm merely pointing out that saying the McCanns would not have been able to suppress their emotions for a short time before Madeleine is revealed missing is not true. Of course they potentially could.

You are saying they couldn't do it, I'm saying they definitely could.

So no, not a double standard, merely pointing out you cannot say suppressing emotions is an impossibility.

Edit* I don't think Madeleine was sporadically murdered either. I don't think most do.

But it wasn't a short amount of time, its been 11 years now. 11 years of one spouse allegedly protecting the other for the most horrific crime a parent could ever commit.
Its not like they had to pretend they were sad for an hour and then went back to business as usual.
This has been unrelentless, they are under a huge amount of pressure, from various police forces, the media, and the court of public opinion.

And they haven't come close to cracking, not even once.
I don't believe they could hold it together, that night or until now, if they were in any way responsible.

Trekker09 · 19-03-2019 05:47PM

cgcsb wrote: »

British culture is cold towards children. The no nonsense victorian nanny style rearing is still widely practiced, the upper classes of the UK still ditch young kids into distant boarding schools for months at a time. You couldn't have the children being to 'soppy' you see. Leaving kids in prams outside the door of the house to 'get some air' is also a common practice. Brexit is probably just one big mummy issue.

I think you've been watching too much Downton Abbey

Trekker09 · 19-03-2019 05:47PM

cgcsb wrote: »

What is your question?
You are defending people who've committed a heinous crime.

What crime have they committed?

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 05:48PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cgcsb wrote: »

I actually don't think that's accurate at all, but it's somewhat off topic.

Whatever about British parents in general, Kate and Gerry were stone cold to their kids, as were their table of friends who treated their own kids with equal disregard. They claimed it was part of their culture to be like this. But the world found it shocking.

You were the one that took this totally off topic by making unfounded, inaccurate and baseless claims about British parenting.
You were completely incorrect in those claims and you clearly have no knowledge about how things are done over there.

Kate and Gerry were not stone cold people, they were warm, loving parents.
They were stupid to leave their children alone.
That doesn't mean they had a cold attitude towards their children.
This whole beating them down thing is getting really boring, no one is refuting that what they did was awful yet you feel the need to work it into every point you make as if its some sort of trump card.
It isn't. We all know and accept that what they did was wrong.

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 05:50PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

But it wasn't a short amount of time, its been 11 years now. 11 years of one spouse allegedly protecting the other for the most horrific crime a parent could ever commit.
Its not like they had to pretend they were sad for an hour and then went back to business as usual.
This has been unrelentless, they are under a huge amount of pressure, from various police forces, the media, and the court of public opinion.

And they haven't come close to cracking, not even once.
I don't believe they could hold it together, that night or until now, if they were in any way responsible.

Thing is... according to them and their supporters + public opinion egged on by the Red Tops, the Portuguese Police were pure bumbling idiots.

Then they had a huge fund to draw upon. Which allowed them to engage nefarious private detectives. They (methodo 3) were so inept you would wonder if that was why they were hired.

They also had a PR spokesman, media training, soft interviews etc.

And they sued anyone who said anything other than the McCann line.

But Dr. Amaral won his Supreme Court case in the end for his book "the truth of the lie". Took many years, but his name has been cleared. I'd say they are raging about that.

Just pointing out that this was no ordinary family. They had every support going, and no one could say boo else they would end up in the High Court.

yourdeadwright · 19-03-2019 05:59PM

Accident happened, parents hid body

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Thing is... according to them and their supporters + public opinion egged on by the Red Tops, the Portuguese Police were pure bumbling idiots.

Then they had a huge fund to draw upon. Which allowed them to engage nefarious private detectives. They (methodo 3) were so inept you would wonder if that was why they were hired.

They also had a PR spokesman, media training, soft interviews etc.

And they sued anyone who said anything other than the McCann line.

But Dr. Amaral won his Supreme Court case in the end for his book "the truth of the lie". Took many years, but his name has been cleared. I'd say they are raging about that.

Just pointing out that this was no ordinary family. They had every support going, and no one could say boo else they would end up in the High Court.

Iv always found the above extremely odd ,
The way they didn't want the dogs involved and she wrote about speaking to Clement Freud ( yeo that guy) about it is very uneasy,

Surely they wold be happy if the dogs gave them any idea of what happened why worry about any evidence being uncovered if your innocent, The investigation was about finding out what happened to Maddy not them

Sunflower 27 · 19-03-2019 06:00PM

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SusieBlue wrote: »

But it wasn't a short amount of time, its been 11 years now. 11 years of one spouse allegedly protecting the other for the most horrific crime a parent could ever commit.
Its not like they had to pretend they were sad for an hour and then went back to business as usual.
This has been unrelentless, they are under a huge amount of pressure, from various police forces, the media, and the court of public opinion.

And they haven't come close to cracking, not even once.
I don't believe they could hold it together, that night or until now, if they were in any way responsible.

Why would they crack now? If they were going to it would have been in the early years. But then, they paid for PR gurus and sued anyone that dared offer alternatives to an abduction. I'm actually surprised this documentary was even aired.

I found it very interesting the Scotland Yard investigator that was told he would not be able to follow any line of investigation that wasn't an abduction very telling. He turned down the position as a result. At least I think he was withScotland Yard, will have to check that.

Maybe time has made it slightly easier for them to live with what happened. Maybe they saw what happened a terrible mistake and living without Madeleine is painful enough. They soldier on, they keep their children, jobs, reputations. Why crack now and lose everything?

The fact they haven't cracked isn't necessarily an indicator of innocence. It could be that they have too much to lose if they do crack. Which, I would imagine they do.

Edit: link to Investigator

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4467832/amp/Met-interested-proving-McCann-parents-innocent.html

Phoebas · 19-03-2019 06:03PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But Dr. Amaral won his Supreme Court case in the end for his book "the truth of the lie". Took many years, but his name has been cleared. I'd say they are raging about that.

By the same token, the McCann's arguido status was also lifted, so they have been 'cleared' too, right?

cgcsb · 19-03-2019 06:06PM

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SusieBlue wrote: »

Kate and Gerry were not stone cold people, they were warm, loving parents.

Like says who? Their sponsors? Warm loving parents don't abandon the kids for hours at night, tamper with windows in their child's abduction case, lie to the cops about events etc.

never mind the strong implication of kids being sedated.

CPTM · 19-03-2019 06:08PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Hmm, I just found out Madeleine was almost 4. She was 9 days shy of her 4th birthday. The idea of her being able to open a patio door and through a child lock gate is suddenly more plausible to me. There's a big difference between a 3 year old and a 4 year old in terms of physical ability. Now I'm suddenly thinking could she have wandered off, and taken by someone outside the apartment. I don't think she was hit by a car because a traumatic injury like that would have left blood on the street. But perhaps when kate went up to check, she realised Madeleine had left through the patio door, so she staged a more likely abduction to avoid the charge of negligence. She did this by opening the shutters and window and running back down to the group to tell everyone.

That would explain her hand print on the window. It would also explain the potentially strange fact of how she'd looked through the dark children's room enough to realise Madeleine wasn't there and yet not enough to realise the window and shutter facing the dark street were wide open. It would also explain how she felt comfortable leaving the twins in the room when running back down to the group.

Creol1 · 19-03-2019 06:12PM

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SusieBlue wrote: »

The timeline of the parents doing it just doesn't make sense, it doesn't fit in whatsoever.
The logistics are almost impossible and would involve Kate & Gerry being the most calculated criminal masterminds to execute it all so flawlessly, destroy all evidence, and get away with it.

I have yet to see one reasonable timeline of events where sometime after 6pm, Madeleine dies (accidentally or otherwise) and Kate & Gerry come up with a plan, make a pact, destroy all evidence, hide the body, and then head off to dinner just after 8pm acting normally.
And do this so well they weren't seen by anyone and didn't incriminate themselves.

A girl missing without trace like this is in itself a highly improbable situation so WHOEVER was responsible must have shown an unusual level of deviousness.

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 06:13PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cgcsb wrote: »

Like says who? Their sponsors? Warm loving parents don't abandon the kids for hours at night, tamper with windows in their child's abduction case, lie to the cops about events etc.

never mind the strong implication of kids being sedated.

Yeah you're like a broken record, we know, we get it, what they did was awful you don't need to keep repeating it ad nauseum.

Interviews from family, friends and colleagues paints them as a warm, friendly, family orientated couple.
I got the same impression from watching the footage of their family before Madeleine's disappearance.

You are aware that they can be warm, nice people, AND be stupid idiots for leaving their children alone?
You know that's possible, right???

19-03-2019 06:13PM

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CPTM wrote: »

Hmm, I just found out Madeleine was almost 4. She was 9 days shy of her 4th birthday. The idea of her being able to open a patio door and through a child lock gate is suddenly more plausible to me. There's a big difference between a 3 year old and a 4 year old in terms of physical ability. Now I'm suddenly thinking could she have wandered off, and taken by someone outside the apartment. I don't think she was hit by a car because a traumatic injury like that would have left blood on the street. But perhaps when kate went up to check, she realised Madeleine had left through the patio door, so she staged a more likely abduction to avoid the charge of negligence. She did this by opening the shutters and window and running back down to the group to tell everyone.

That would explain her hand print on the window. It would also explain the potentially strange fact of how she'd looked through the dark children's room enough to realise Madeleine wasn't there and yet not enough to realise the window and shutter facing the dark street were wide open. It would also explain how she felt comfortable leaving the twins in the room when running back down to the group.

You’d have to be very unlucky to wander outside and just happen to bump into an opportunistic abductor.

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 06:14PM

Phoebas wrote: »

By the same token, the McCann's arguido status was also lifted, so they have been 'cleared' too, right?

I am not making any assumptions, but what I posted are facts, of which there are very few in this case.

I cannot recall if their Arguido Status was revoked, probably was, but they sure hightailed it out of Portugal quite quickly in the end, despite saying they would leave no stone unturned in their search for Madeleine.

Not easy to search for her back in Rothley, despite all their claims. They legged it ASAP out of Portugal. Despite having lots of money in the fund to keep them there, and so on. But what do I know?

Like many others I am baffled by the whole thing TBH.

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 06:14PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Deleted User wrote: »

You’d have to be very unlucky to wander outside and just happen to bump into an opportunistic abductor.

I agree. The large amount of sexual assaults in the area, attempted assaults on children and not to mention the two kids that went missing prior to Madeleine would indicate she was being watched.

yourdeadwright · 19-03-2019 06:16PM

Accident happened, parents hid body

Kate and Gerry were not stone cold people, they were warm, loving parents.
They were stupid to leave their children alone.

What would give you that idea ?
They sent Maddy to kid club all day and then left her alone in the apartment every night, ,

Now I have no idea if they killed her or not that's a big jump but sounds like the child was a burden to them ,

cgcsb · 19-03-2019 06:16PM

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CPTM wrote: »

Hmm, I just found out Madeleine was almost 4. She was 9 days shy of her 4th birthday. The idea of her being able to open a patio door and through a child lock gate is suddenly more plausible to me. There's a big difference between a 3 year old and a 4 year old in terms of physical ability. Now I'm suddenly thinking could she have wandered off, and taken by someone outside the apartment. I don't think she was hit by a car because a traumatic injury like that would have left blood on the street. But perhaps when kate went up to check, she realised Madeleine had left through the patio door, so she staged a more likely abduction to avoid the charge of negligence. She did this by opening the shutters and window and running back down to the group to tell everyone.

That would explain her hand print on the window. It would also explain the potentially strange fact of how she'd looked through the dark children's room enough to realise Madeleine wasn't there and yet not enough to realise the window and shutter facing the dark street were wide open. It would also explain how she felt comfortable leaving the twins in the room when running back down to the group.

That's a good one

Finding one theory to fit all the facts is actually quite difficult whether you think them guilty or innocent or somewhat guilty.

Your theory avoids the issue of sedation though, the twins were out for the count for the rest of the night and Madeline was able to walk out the patio door and have a chance encounter with an opportunistic peadophile.

To snowball of your theory, could someone who knew the place very well have encouraged her to leave the flat, perhaps someone who worked at the kids club.

cgcsb · 19-03-2019 06:19PM

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SusieBlue wrote: »

Interviews from family, friends and colleagues paints them as a warm, friendly, family orientated couple.

Any unbias accounts of same? I'm unlikely to tell reporters that my brother's a dickhead, it's true though.

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 06:19PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I agree. The large amount of sexual assaults in the area, attempted assaults on children and not to mention the two kids that went missing prior to Madeleine would indicate she was being watched.

I am sorry now. Why Madeleine specifically do you think? Oh yes, the abductor knew that the apartment would be unlocked. Forgot that.

And what about the apartments of all the other friends? No chance that their kids might be on a list is there? But then again I understand that the rest of the party had baby monitors but Mcs did not.

Mystery of the century if you ask me.

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 06:20PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

yourdeadwright wrote: »

What would give you that idea ?
They sent Maddy to kid club all day and then left her alone in the apartment every night, ,

Now I have no idea if they killed her or not that's a big jump but sounds like the child was a burden to them ,

Its an even bigger jump to say their child was unloved and a burden to them for sending them to kids club while on holiday.
No one is refuting the fact that it was reckless to leave them alone that night so I've no idea why that point is being raised. Again.

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 06:21PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

cgcsb wrote: »

Any unbias accounts of same? I'm unlikely to tell reporters that my brother's a dickhead, it's true though.

How would someone who doesn't know them be able to give an account of them, pray tell?

cgcsb · 19-03-2019 06:23PM

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SusieBlue wrote: »

How would someone who doesn't know them be able to give an account of them, pray tell?

Well anyone who isn't a relation or close freind/co-worker could easily meet them casually and give a negative account, but no doubt they'd get a gagging order just as quick.

Sunflower 27 · 19-03-2019 06:24PM

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SusieBlue wrote: »

Yeah you're like a broken record, we know, we get it, what they did was awful you don't need to keep repeating it ad nauseum.

Interviews from family, friends and colleagues paints them as a warm, friendly, family orientated couple.

Well of course their friends and family are going to support them.

With all due respect, re the broken record comment, the same could be said about you and your line of thinking that the parents could not possibly be involved in covering up a death by neglect.

The leaving children alone is what caused this tragedy. You can't gloss over that or expect people to not be thoroughly appalled and question what else the parents could potentially do. It was outrageous what they did. I don't know anyone that would do what they did. Do you?

It's always been at the heart of this story and that won't change.

Phoebas · 19-03-2019 06:25PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am not making any assumptions, but what I posted are facts, of which there are very few in this case.

I cannot recall if their Arguido Status was revoked, probably was, but they sure hightailed it out of Portugal quite quickly in the end, despite saying they would leave no stone unturned in their search for Madeleine.

Not easy to search for her back in Rothley, despite all their claims. They legged it ASAP out of Portugal. Despite having lots of money in the fund to keep them there, and so on. But what do I know?

Like many others I am baffled by the whole thing TBH.

1. The 'arguido' status was revoked - they are not suspects in this case.
2. 'Legged it' is a pretty biased was for someone who says 'But what do I know?' to put it. They went back home to try and give some semblance of normality to their family. They never gave up the search.

yourdeadwright · 19-03-2019 06:26PM

Accident happened, parents hid body

SusieBlue wrote: »

Its an even bigger jump to say their child was unloved and a burden to them for sending them to kids club while on holiday.
No one is refuting the fact that it was reckless to leave them alone that night so I've no idea why that point is being raised. Again.

Actions speak louder than words ,

Someone said they where loving parents they do not come across as loving parents to leave 3 kids alone at night ,

Also didn't they leave the twins in Portugal with a Nanny when flying around Europe doing the tour thing couple of weeks after Maddy been kidnapped ? Who in the world would do that ,

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 06:28PM

Phoebas wrote: »

1. The 'arguido' status was revoked - they are not suspects in this case.
2. 'Legged it' is a pretty biased was for someone who says 'But what do I know?' to put it. They went back home to try and give some semblance of normality to their family. They never gave up the search.

Whatever you say. Either the parents neglected the kids which led to some tragedy, or she was abducted.

I have no problem with them not being suspects anymore, but the neglect thing really gets me I have to say. Sorry about that, it's kind of a gut instinct thing.

SusieBlue · 19-03-2019 06:30PM

She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)

Sunflower 27 wrote: »

Well of course their friends and family are going to support them.

With all due respect, re the broken record comment, the same could be said about you and your line of thinking that the parents could not possibly be involved in covering up a death by neglect.

The leaving children alone is what caused this tragedy. You can't gloss over that or expect people to not be thoroughly appalled and question what else the parents could potentially do. It was outrageous what they did. I don't know anyone that would do what they did. Do you?

It's always been at the heart of this story and that won't change.

I don't think think the parents are involved, because of the absence of any actual reasonable, legitimate timeline in which Kate & Gerry could have killed her and gotten rid of the body.
Not because I blindly think they're innocent.

If I could see a timeline in which they could have committed what they are accused of I'd be all ears.

I think leaving those kids alone was awful but its getting so repetitive and boring to see it stated over and over again, this far into the thread.
Especially when its used as some sort of trump card to prove their guilt.

Spanish Eyes · 19-03-2019 06:30PM

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Actions speak louder than words ,

Someone said they where loving parents they do not come across as loving parents to leave 3 kids alone at night ,

Also didn't they leave the twins in Portugal with a Nanny when flying around Europe doing the tour thing couple of weeks after Maddy been kidnapped ? Who in the world would do that ,

Because of the audience with the Pope of course.

Interesting that the docu that I have watched so far only has Anglican priests interviewed, not the Catholic priest who AFAIR was traumatised and let down by them, if I remember his statement correctly.

cgcsb · 19-03-2019 06:32PM

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yourdeadwright wrote: »

Actions speak louder than words ,

Someone said they where loving parents they do not come across as loving parents to leave 3 kids alone at night ,

Also didn't they leave the twins in Portugal with a Nanny when flying around Europe doing the tour thing couple of weeks after Maddy been kidnapped ? Who in the world would do that ,

Maybe they are just tight-holes and didn't want to pay a nanny. They did pay for the kids club during the day but maybe the night rate was dearer. I have been on holiday as a child with my family and I was often out late with my parents in restaurants, this is a very common sight in the med. They certainly wouldn't have just dumped me in the hotel unsupervised. If I really wanted to go back, my teenage brother had to bring me.

Madeleine McCann

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