The war on meat

Deebles McBeebles · 27-02-2019 3:27pm

gozunda wrote: »

Again what is being promoted is not only the complete eradication of farm and domestic animals but also either the complete eradication or genetic alteration of predator species and the use of artificial birth control on remaining species as a way of limiting their numbers. It is one of the areas which I find truely disturbing. That the same movement has many grassroot supporters is also deeply worrying imo.

All I can go on is people I have met who are vegan/veggie and not one would advocate that. It is worrying but its also ridiculous. I wouldn't pay too much heed, some folk have too much time on their hands.

27-02-2019 3:30pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Is it better to have lived and be eaten or to never have lived at all ?

That is the ultimate question really and there is no simple answer. It would to my mind depend on the existence they had - rather than on them simply existing. A happy cow in a field and a force fed source of fois gras are likely to give us different answers there.

This is why when I ask vegetarians if they have _any_ moral arguments against the eating of meat in and of itself I rarely get an answer. Rather I get comments about the poor quality of life they are given - and the failings in our mass farming industry. None of which I contest as I go to some extremes myself to source my meat as ethically as possible - or I hunt and kill it myself.

If we had a farming industry in side which existing as an animal would over all be better than never existing at all - in that they had a net positive experience of life - then I have zero ethical issues with eating meat.

The problem for me is never the eating of meat therefore it is how it is sometimes farmed. And we can always do better there. Alas people buy cheap and cheap requires we cut corners in production. Often at the expense of the well being of the animals in question.

But I love my meat and will continue to eat it as long as no arguments against eating meat are specifically given to me. which so far they never have been.

yourdeadwright · 27-02-2019 3:34pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Calling a group of people you have no idea about, hypocritical, is also pretty weak. I've never met anyone who disputes palm oil is a problem, it would be stupid to do so. You have ignored the rest of my post to get your dig in but your argument is nonsensical.

If they thought it was a problem why buy products which contain it ?
Stop buying the vegan products which contain it and the "Vegan " companies won't be produce it pretty simply stuff,

I don't care what anyone eats but Vegans who harp on at meat eaters all the time but don't practise what they preach need to be called out on there nonsense,

gozunda · 27-02-2019 3:39pm

Unearthly wrote: »

....
Processed meat is considered a Class 1 carcinogen by the world health organisation (sausages, bacon etc)
I see people gorge on that on a daily basis in work, or whenever visiting a shop at the deli
Everything though in moderation, whole foods for the win

Yeah processed meat is not something I would really eat. Tbh any highly processed foods are suspect healthwise imo and that would include any of the fake meats and other highly processed foodstuffs outthere imo.

Just to clarify about the WHO findings detailed

Eating red meat (a whole food btw) has not been established as a cause of cancer.

The classification of processed meats and cancer is based on evidence from epidemiological studies showing that eating processed meat causes colorectal cancer.. Studues have shown the added ingredients which are harmful

N-nitroso compounds are cancer-causing substances believed to be responsible for some of the adverse effects of processed meat consumption. These derive from nitrite (sodium nitrite) added to processed meat products.

Could you quantify the risk of eating red meat and processed meat?

The consumption of processed meat was associated with small increases in the risk of cancer in the studies reviewed. In those studies, the risk generally increased with the amount of meat consumed. An analysis of data from 10 studies estimated that every 50 gram portion of processed meat eaten daily increases the risk of colorectal cancer by about 18%.

Note: The studies on processed meat consumption in humans are observational in nature.They can show that people who eat processed meat are more likely to get these diseases, but they can not prove that the processed meat caused them.

It is possible that the links found between processed meat and disease are partly due to the fact that people who eat processed meat tend to do other things that are not associated with good health.

So yeah avoid or limit processed foods in general imo.

Deebles McBeebles · 27-02-2019 3:50pm

yourdeadwright wrote: »

If they thought it was a problem why buy products which contain it ?
Stop buying the vegan products which contain it and the "Vegan " companies won't be produce it pretty simply stuff,

I don't care what anyone eats but Vegans who harp on at meat eaters all the time but don't practise what they preach need to be called out on there nonsense,

I get the vegans harping on thing, believe me. Any honest vegan would say the same. Some folks put themselves on a pedestal due to their diet, which is ridiculous.

What about the other products that contain palm oil though? The ones that aren't aimed at the vegan market I mean. Are they not as much to blame?

yourdeadwright · 27-02-2019 4:02pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

I get the vegans harping on thing, believe me. Any honest vegan would say the same. Some folks put themselves on a pedestal due to their diet, which is ridiculous.

What about the other products that contain palm oil though? The ones that aren't aimed at the vegan market I mean. Are they not as much to blame?

How hard is it to understand what im saying ,

The people who are NOT vegan and take the other non vegan products containing Palm oil are NOT Hypocrites as they don't care in the first place

They eat meat and don't care, they don't care what vegan's do so no hidden agenda's

Vegan's continue to bash meat eater's about the effects on the planet but yet continue to use these Palm Oil products that have some of the same effect's ,

There for they ARE hypocrites practise what you preach ,

Deebles McBeebles · 27-02-2019 4:04pm

Ah here. I can't debate nonsense.

yourdeadwright · 27-02-2019 4:21pm

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Ah here. I can't debate nonsense.

The nonsense is coming from yourself ,

silverharp · 27-02-2019 5:36pm

oops :pac:

https://twitter.com/bigfatsurprise/status/1100795657701474304

Hande hoche! · 27-02-2019 5:38pm

silverharp wrote: »

oops :pac:

https://twitter.com/bigfatsurprise/status/1100795657701474304

Remember watching that documentary a bit back. Interesting development.

gozunda · 27-02-2019 6:18pm

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Remember watching that documentary a bit back. Interesting development.

In the video, he announced that because he is no longer vegan, he was “stepping down” from the vegan clothing brand he founded, called ETHCS...

There's a lot of money to be made here tbh. How much of this stuff is commercial bandwagoning? From technologically sophisticated faux meat concepts to clothing to wine and all sold with morally superior advertising such as the vegan beer brewed in Toronto called "Morality on Tap" (sic). Theres something on tap all right and it ain't morality ....

Unearthly · 27-02-2019 6:35pm

That guy Tim was drinking his own p!ss for 2 years and doing monthly water fasts

He also thinks the earth is flat

Veganism wasn't the worst of his problems :pac:

jh79 · 27-02-2019 7:11pm

Unearthly wrote: »

That guy Tim was drinking his own p!ss for 2 years and doing monthly water fasts

He also thinks the earth is flat

Veganism wasn't the worst of his problems :pac:

In my experience there does seem to be a significant cross over between vegans and conspiracy theorists. Plenty seem to be anti vaccine, anti fluoridation ,fake natural cures for illness eg CBD oil , vit C cancer cures for example, anti GM big pharma nonsense etc

Just look at the movies recommended in the vegan forum, pure fantasy stuff.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 27-02-2019 8:12pm

qwerty ui op wrote: »

What an egregious lie!

And you along with anyone who has ever had any involvement with cattle knows full well there isn't some random parts of the country where sticks aren't used to drive cattle.

I've no idea what being a Moderator entails but straight up lying, it just isn't a good look.
So say and do whatever you want your only harming yourself.

and what about me being told to "F U C K OFF which you definitely saw, I was half thinking I might report that sometime, cos you stayed very quiet about it.

Now, seeing as this is a discussion site and not a venue for soapboxing, I'll request again that you clarify the above statement. The apparently stock vegan response of throwing ****e and hoping some sticks isn't going to wash here(sic).

The way I see it, you have three possible responses.
1. Retract and apologise.
2. Provide proof of the allegation that I go around beating my stock. And lying, especially that, egregious springs to mind there as that was thrown in there as a slur and why would someone make an allegation like that unless there was proof? Why indeed?
3. Ignore all the above and blame me for your posts.

So back to you, the balls fully in your court and the next shot's all yours. Tbh, your credibility, what's left of it anyway, is very dependent on your response here.

qwerty ui op · 28-02-2019 12:33am

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

2. Provide proof of the allegation that I go around beating my stock. And lying, especially that, egregious springs to mind there as that was thrown in there as a slur and why would someone make an allegation like that unless there was proof? Why indeed?

Why? I never said you go around beating your stock.

I clearly highlighted "same in any yard around here" and if that wasn't enough I then said " there isn't some random parts of the country where sticks aren't used to drive cattle." to add more clarity.

In your post you had already said ;"you won't find a stick being used in my yard to move cattle" So there is only one way to interpret the " same in any yard around here"bit- You're saying, where you're from, farmers don't use sticks.
So maybe you don't, but the overwhelming vast majority of farmers do use sticks! I don't need to prove this, it's just common knowledge. And every time you mention this circular yard of yours, you don't do your arguament any favours, because I'm thinking where the hell are all the circular yards.

Where are you getting this Vegan stuff from? I never said I was a vegan or mention vegan

Just as when I posted on the thread a few wks ago the general level of honest dialogue is piss poor.
All I've done is ask a few questions.

Also
Me using the words "rip the calf away" instead of "take the the calf " is no indication of my unwillingness to be impartial because we're both agreed the calf shouldn't be ripped/taken away.

Tbh I'm more or less outta here now, but look at post532, above you make no attempt at an honest effort here to answer my questions.

gozunda · 28-02-2019 10:03am

qwerty ui op wrote: »

Why? I never said you go around beating your stock.
I clearly highlighted "same in any yard around here" and if that wasn't enough I then said " there isn't some random parts of the country where sticks aren't used to drive cattle." to add more clarity. In your post you had already said ;"you won't find a stick being used in my yard to move cattle" So there is only one way to interpret the " same in any yard around here"bit- You're saying, where you're from, farmers don't use sticks.So maybe you don't, but the overwhelming vast majority of farmers do use sticks! I don't need to prove this, it's just common knowledge. And every time you mention this circular yard of yours, you don't do your arguament any favours, because I'm thinking where the hell are all the circular yards.
Where are you getting this Vegan stuff from? I never said I was a vegan or mention vegan
Just as when I posted on the thread a few wks ago the general level of honest dialogue is piss poor. All I've done is ask a few questions.
Also Me using the words "rip the calf away" instead of "take the the calf " is no indication of my unwillingness to be impartial because we're both agreed the calf shouldn't be ripped/taken away. Tbh I'm more or less outta here now, but look at post532, above you make no attempt at an honest effort here to answer my questions.

Qwerty, you really are writing nonsense. How do manage to get so much wrong in so few words? Most of that comment is hyperbole and idiotic wordplay at best.

Your use of the the "Common Knowledge fallacy" is noted. To attempt to claim something must be true because you say many people believe it is frankly bollox. The use of that particular fallacy is known as a favorite device of the propagandist. Many livestock farmers I know carry or hold up a stick to help direct animals without 'beating'. Many others use nothing but voice commands and good stockman skills to do the same. Both are good practice imo. The farmers I know do not use it to beat or mistreat an animal. Hell I know farmer with free range poultry who uses a 'stick' to help direct whole flocks of turkeys etc and no they dont get beaten or abused either!

Which gets me on to my next point. You claim not be of any one group. However again I see the exact same use of language and argument that I've seen in a thousand anti-animal farming commentaries with the general intent of throwing mud. Funny that ...

Tilikum17 · 28-02-2019 10:25am

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Now that I have a few minutes, I'll explain why we don't abuse our stock. You won't find it on YouTube so you probably won't have come across it before.

I'm in the middle of my cattle twice a day. Shouting and roaring and brandishing a plastic stick like you allude to is counterproductive. Why use a stick when a carrot will be more effective, both long and short term? If I was to go bizarrely insane, as you're accusing me of, it wouldn't make milking any easier as cows wouldn't enter the parlour or behave while there. The machine, the walls, the cows and myself would be covered in ****e which isn't conducive towards clean milk or contented animals.

Now, I sell a small number of breeding stock every year and have a small number of repeat customers for those animals. They come back because they find the stock, and the bulls especially, quiet and easy to manage, as far as retagging animals in the field by just walking up to them. Now, I appreciate that doesn't fit anywhere even in the same universe as your narrative but, unfortunately for you, that's the reality.

I'm just after returning from feeding a lamb with meningitis, after checking the close in calvers, (Again, no sticks needed nor wanted) and i have had to step over my ewes because the lazy gits wouldn't get out of my way. They have a large paddock to rest in but they choose to sleep indoors just like they choose to totally ignore me walking through the shed. Again, not your YouTube friendly scene but one that's replicated all across the country.

Your efforts to paint farmers as psychotic mass murderers just comes across to the majority of people as being, at best, slightly deranged but work away, you're only making your cause look more bizarre the minute.

Now I must get a bit of sleep so I want to take this opportunity to wish you a happy #februdairy.

Maybe you could do a bit of training with these lads?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/26/undercover-footage-of-violence-at-dairy-farm-prompts-rspca-investigation?fbclid=IwAR1S0kL8o8na0N6uv1PXy26DcGVZBLWbaAfdOEhQLB0KwWaoEZcCKlqUy1M

gozunda · 28-02-2019 10:41am

Tilikum17 wrote: »

Maybe you could do a bit of training with these lads?
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/26/undercover-footage-of-violence-at-dairy-farm-prompts-rspca-investigation?fbclid=IwAR1S0kL8o8na0N6uv1PXy26DcGVZBLWbaAfdOEhQLB0KwWaoEZcCKlqUy1M

Tilikum - yet another anti farming thread you show up on. I am interested why so obsessed with farming in Ireland and meat as a self declared non-meat eater?

But to answer the cheap shot innuendo above to Buford - just because a farm in the UK are found to not follow good farming practice you are going to make sure to use that "stick" to beat farmers that do follow good farming practices.
:rolleyes:

The article clearly states vet Paul Roger, chair of the UK-based Animal Welfare Science, Ethics and Law Veterinary Association detailing "that the level of force is not acceptable. And that these are not the sort of standards you usually encounter in the dairy industry." But then that information doesn't suit some does it?

Maybe you should look into who or what is funding that article.

qwerty ui op · 28-02-2019 11:02am

gozunda wrote: »

Qwerty, you really are writing nonsense. How do manage to get so much wrong in so few words? Most of that comment is hyperbole and idiotoc wordplay at best.

Your use of the the "Common Knowledge fallacy" is noted. To attempt to claim something must be true because you say many people believe it is frankly bollox. The use of that particular fallacy is known as a favorite device of the propagandist. Many livestock farmers I know carry a stick to help direct animals or to hold up in the case of a rogue animal etc. They do not use it to beat or mistreat an animal. Hell I know farmer with free range poultry who uses a 'stick' to help direct whole flocks of turkeys etc and no they dont get hit or abused either!

Which gets me on to my next point. You claim not be of any one group. However again I see the exact same use of language and argument that I've seen in a thousand anti-animal farming commentaries with the general intent of throwing mud. Funny that ...

Christ above!
This thread is the single strangest thread I've ever posted on, every time I post it's like I've entered into the twilight zone.
I'm sure it would only take a few minutes to look it up but I honestly don't know the difference between a vegan and vegetarian. I've have no idea of the dynamic between pro meat v anti meat.

I honestly don't know what it is I said that has everyone losing their minds. But just like driving a car there are rules and there is what actually happens on the ground in everyday life. I've just tried to get to the actual key issues for a farm animal.

So if you are part of a anti meat group maybe you should look at my posts in this thread. I don't know what I said but there is something there that has really pissed some people off and forced them to lie.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 28-02-2019 11:04am

qwerty ui op wrote: »

Why? I never said you go around beating your stock.

I clearly highlighted "same in any yard around here" and if that wasn't enough I then said " there isn't some random parts of the country where sticks aren't used to drive cattle." to add more clarity.

In your post you had already said ;"you won't find a stick being used in my yard to move cattle" So there is only one way to interpret the " same in any yard around here"bit- You're saying, where you're from, farmers don't use sticks. So maybe you don't, but the overwhelming vast majority of farmers do use sticks!

I've worked on farms across the south of the country for the last 35 years, covering all enterprises and ranging from 40 cattle to 400 cattle. Not once did I see anybody doing a Norse berserker impersonation with a stick instead of an axe as you constantly allude to. Indeed, if anybody were to even try it, the stick would be removed from them and used on them instead.

I requested some proof that it happens which you seem unwilling or unable to provide. With the pervasiveness of mobile phones and a constant connection with social media, I find it rather peculiar that not once in the last decade has a single person filmed this supposedly widespread activity and thought it was a good idea to upload it onto YouTube/Vimeo/Instagram/Imgur.

Not once, not that I can find but you also seem unable to provide any shred of evidence to support your bias. Not a jot. Not a scintilla. Indeed, not even a scintilla of a jot of a shred of evidence that this practice is

I don't need to prove this, it's just common knowledge. And every time you mention this circular yard of yours, you don't do your arguament any favours, because I'm thinking where the hell are all the circular yards.

They're quite common around the country but you'd actually have to go onto a farm to see them.

[/QUOTE]Where are you getting this Vegan stuff from? I never said I was a vegan or mention vegan

Just as when I posted on the thread a few wks ago the general level of honest dialogue is piss poor.
All I've done is ask a few questions.[/QUOTE]
All of which I have answered. You, on the other hand, still refuse to provide any shred of evidence of this apparently wide spread practice.
[/QUOTE]Also
Me using the words "rip the calf away" instead of "take the the calf " is no indication of my unwillingness to be impartial because we're both agreed the calf shouldn't be ripped/taken away.

Tbh I'm more or less outta here now, but look at post532, above you make no attempt at an honest effort here to answer my questions.[/QUOTE]
I've answered all your questions but you seem strangely unwilling to answer mine?

gozunda · 28-02-2019 11:06am

qwerty ui op wrote: »

Christ above! This thread is the single strangest thread I've ever posted on, every time I post it's like I've entered into the twilight zone. I'm sure it would only take a few minutes to look it up but I honestly don't know the difference between a vegan and vegetarian. I've have no idea of the dynamic between pro meat v anti meat.I honestly don't know what it is I said that has everyone losing their minds. But just like driving a car there are rules and there is what actually happens on the ground in everyday life. I've just tried to get to the actual key issues for a farm animal.So if you are part of a anti meat group maybe you should look at my posts in this thread. I don't know what I said but there is something there that has really pissed some people off and forced them to lie.

Who forced who to lie in this thread? Your comments make no sense whatsoever.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 28-02-2019 11:15am

Tilikum17 wrote: »

Maybe you could do a bit of training with these lads?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/26/undercover-footage-of-violence-at-dairy-farm-prompts-rspca-investigation?fbclid=IwAR1S0kL8o8na0N6uv1PXy26DcGVZBLWbaAfdOEhQLB0KwWaoEZcCKlqUy1M

Ahhh, the Guardian, the last bastion of unbiased and independent reporting, as they would have us believe.

https://www.openphilanthropy.org/focus/us-policy/farm-animal-welfare/the-guardian-journalism-factory-farming

Obviously, you cannot be biased when you already have the answers sorted out before the investigation begins:D

And English to boot. Afaik, we haven't been under their jurisdiction for quite some time. The conversation was discussing alleged animal abuses here in Ireland...

qwerty ui op · 28-02-2019 11:20am

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I've worked on farms across the south of the country for the last 35 years, covering all enterprises and ranging from 40 cattle to 400 cattle. Not once did I see anybody doing a Norse berserker impersonation with a stick instead of an axe as you constantly allude to. ot a scintilla. Indeed, not even a scintilla of a jot of a shred of evidence that this practice is

Where did I allude to this? You said "constantly"; show one example please?

28-02-2019 12:58pm

qwerty ui op wrote: »

Christ above!
This thread is the single strangest thread I've ever posted on, every time I post it's like I've entered into the twilight zone.
I'm sure it would only take a few minutes to look it up but I honestly don't know the difference between a vegan and vegetarian. I've have no idea of the dynamic between pro meat v anti meat.

I honestly don't know what it is I said that has everyone losing their minds. But just like driving a car there are rules and there is what actually happens on the ground in everyday life. I've just tried to get to the actual key issues for a farm animal.

So if you are part of a anti meat group maybe you should look at my posts in this thread. I don't know what I said but there is something there that has really pissed some people off and forced them to lie.

Like it or not you have fallen foul of the anti-vegan brigade.

No truth shall go unchallenged.

You have been swarmed.

It’s no fun. Especially as some have perceived power.

28-02-2019 1:05pm

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Ahhh, the Guardian, the last bastion of unbiased and independent reporting, as they would have us believe.

https://www.openphilanthropy.org/focus/us-policy/farm-animal-welfare/the-guardian-journalism-factory-farming

Obviously, you cannot be biased when you already have the answers sorted out before the investigation begins:D

And English to boot. Afaik, we haven't been under their jurisdiction for quite some time. The conversation was discussing alleged animal abuses here in Ireland...

So you reckon that footage is fake yeah ?

Deebles McBeebles · 28-02-2019 1:08pm

Tilikum17 wrote: »

Maybe you could do a bit of training with these lads?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/feb/26/undercover-footage-of-violence-at-dairy-farm-prompts-rspca-investigation?fbclid=IwAR1S0kL8o8na0N6uv1PXy26DcGVZBLWbaAfdOEhQLB0KwWaoEZcCKlqUy1M

Jesus that's pretty bad. And before anyone jumps down my f*cking throat, no, I'm not saying its indicative of all farmers but it shouldn't be discredited just because its in The Guardian.

qwerty ui op · 28-02-2019 1:08pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Like it or not you have fallen foul of the anti-vegan brigade.

No truth shall go unchallenged.

You have been swarmed.

It’s no fun. Especially as some have perceived power.

You're spot on.

Imagine if I had said this.

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

just comes across to the majority of people as being, at best, slightly deranged .

28-02-2019 1:14pm

qwerty ui op wrote: »

You're spot on.

Imagine if I had said this.

The troops will rally soon.

Seems farmers aren’t as busy as the media would have you believe. They have lots and lots of free time for boards.ie

Lots.

I reckon it must be handy money. Subsidies probably help a tad too.

gozunda · 28-02-2019 1:46pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The troops will rally soon. Seems farmers aren’t as busy as the media would have you believe. They have lots and lots of free time for boards.ie Lots.
I reckon it must be handy money. Subsidies probably help a tad too.

Klopp. I'm on a lunch break if that is ok with you. You have a well earned reputation for jumping into a discussion, attacking any poster you disagree with by making anti farming remarks with extra innuendo but never engage in actual debate. Why is that? What are you afraid of? The truth that what you are peddling is rubbish? Funny that ...

Edit: I do love your logic that any poster not attacking farming is somehow 'antivegan' and is part of a 'brigade' lol.

gozunda · 28-02-2019 2:01pm

qwerty ui op wrote: »

You're spot on.
Imagine if I had said this.

I would say mind your bedfellows least you get up with fleas.

. I've heard though that 'Spot On' is good for that type of infestation...

Out of interest I checked that quote up and it actually reads as follows:

Your efforts to paint farmers as psychotic mass murderers just comes across to the majority of people as being, at best, slightly deranged ...

And not the out of context quote you supplied

qwerty ui op wrote:

...just comes across to the majority of people as being, at best, slightly deranged ..

i.e. It is your efforts to depict all farmers negatively which comes across as deranged. [That refers to the comments as deranged and not that its you who are 'deranged'] But you know that already.

Btw you didn't answer the question in my last post where I asked "who forced who to lie in this thread"?

I'm sorry but none of your comments are making any sense ...

The war on meat

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