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Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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    #2792
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,258 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Outkast_IRE wrote: »
    I spent 20 mins today reading through the various reports that have been commissioned over the last few years looking at pay for nurses. Quite quickly it's looks like our nurses are paid very well Vs the UK or EU average . With all their salary top ups etc they come out quite decent out of it with fair increments along the way.

    If you upskill and get promoted this is also well recognised. Their spokesperson any time these reports are mentioned starts harping on about base wage Vs base wage , but to me if you are getting wage top ups for loads of things that its important to look at the total package .

    If you were looking to change jobs in the morning you would compare the total package being offered not just the basic wages.

    The crux of the problem is too many doctors and nurses leaving and not enough being trained .

    Let's do the following
    1. Stop our medical schools taking on graduates from all over the world who return as soon as they are done . Unis are out of pocket but so what educate your own first then worry about foreign students .

    2. Increase the numbers in training , invest heavily in this area this will eases pressure over time on junior docs and nurses and improve working conditions .

    3. If you leave immediately following completion of training you pay back your fees, it's converted into a low interest or no interest fee loan . You must work in the country for 4 years . In order to bring this in the government must improve conditions for junior docs and nurses , I don't expect them to be bonded into slavery or anything. No stupid length shifts

    In addition to this point. In order to make up the shortfall the HSE had turned to agency staff who get better pay (but none of the valuable perks) than full time staff. And the full time staff are jealous.


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    #2793
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    Augeo wrote: »
    A lot of citizens always have contempt for the government, that's why there are regular elections and different governments etc etc from time to time.

    Look at where that's got us..........would you have the same acceptance for the Brexit vote?


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    #2794
    Outkast_IRE
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    In addition to this point. In order to make up the shortfall the HSE had turned to agency staff who get better pay (but none of the valuable perks) than full time staff. And the full time staff are jealous.
    Exactly my proposal if I was in government in the morning . " We can increase your base pay but you lose the X,y,z allowance. "

    Also they should consider a contract system to lure them away from agencies . Sit down, do the maths cut out the agency middlemen for the most part and hire them on 1 year contracts .


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    #2795
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users Posts: 45,161 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    How does paying more money to existing nurses resolve waiting time problems?

    Having experienced a and e first hand recently there are plenty of lazy medical staff in these units. They're not all Florence Nightingales the unions would have you believe, it's just a job for many. And many of them do it badly.

    the government have failed to recruit the numbers they promised they would, through means other than completing pay restoration or pay increases.

    If they could actually deliver on their promise things might be different, but as other efforts have failed, maybe money will deliver the promise.

    I would also agree on not all nurses are great. my wife works with some she doesn't consider good enough at their job.

    But.... when the goverment have created a situation where all must be paid the same then this is the situation we are in. If you have to increase pay to increase numbers then rubbish staff will also get an increase.

    I do think the PS should pay based on performance, but it isn't going to happen. the overhead, HR etc of it is beyond the ambition of the government or public sector.

    I'd be in favour of starting it all over again and deciding a proper number of people for the jobs required in the PS, and then paying people according to performance. firing people who aren't good enough. retiring roles and positions that are no longer needed through improvements and joining of services etc.

    For example, it is insane that all jobs in the hospitals moving to the new childrens hospital will be kept - at the very least there is a bunch of admin staff that won't be needed, yet they will be.

    There is a lot of wasted money in the HSE and the PS in general. But unless you are going to break it down and build it up again, the current system must be worked within.


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    #2796
    Mitch Connor
    Registered Users Posts: 45,161 ✭✭✭✭Mitch Connor


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    In addition to this point. In order to make up the shortfall the HSE had turned to agency staff who get better pay (but none of the valuable perks) than full time staff. And the full time staff are jealous.

    I don't think the agency staff themselves get much more - at least my wife wouldn't - but the hospital pay more for them because of the payment to the agency itself. It would be cheaper to hire nurses than to rely on agency... but budgets.....

    Similarly, a lot of home care packages are cheaper, considerably, than hospital stays for the same patient, but the budgets are controlled sperately resulting in longer, more expensive hospital stays.

    money management in the HSE and PS is a joke.


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    #2797
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Seanachai wrote: »
    Look at where that's got us..........would you have the same acceptance for the Brexit vote?

    So you are suggesting we put a stop to democracy?


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    #2798
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Outkast_IRE wrote: »
    2. Increase the numbers in training , invest heavily in this area this will eases pressure over time on junior docs and nurses and improve working conditions .

    3. If you leave immediately following completion of training you pay back your fees, it's converted into a low interest or no interest fee loan . You must work in the country for 4 years . In order to bring this in the government must improve conditions for junior docs and nurses , I don't expect them to be bonded into slavery or anything. No stupid length shifts

    Sure, encourage people into healthcare education by locking them into a contract where they're penalised for working abroad.
    I'm sure you'll have young people flocking to the door.

    Or, you know, they could study literally anything else, for better pay, better conditions and less stress.


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    #2799
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,258 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    Sure, encourage people into healthcare education by locking them into a contract where they're penalised for working abroad.
    I'm sure you'll have young people flocking to the door.

    Or, you know, they could study literally anything else, for better pay, better conditions and less stress.

    I doubt it would be that off-putting. CAO points wouldn't drop to zero that's for sure. A guaranteed job on graduation would be an incentive to many


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    #2800
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    facehugger99 wrote: »
    Snowflake Alert!

    Do you always announce yourself like that when you enter the room?

    You really shouldn't be so hard on yourself, people can be quite understanding of fragile personalities.


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    #2801
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    MrMusician18 wrote: »
    I doubt it would be that off-putting. CAO points wouldn't drop to zero that's for sure. A guaranteed job on graduation would be an incentive to many

    Cao points have been dropping for years and a guaranteed job right now doesn't seem to be swaying people.

    There's just lots of easier ways to make money.


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    #2802
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    80,000 appointments cancelled to date since they started their strike. 27,000 appointments cancelled today alone. Well done nurses.
    If the government caves in to their demands, it will cost us an extra €300 million every year ..... until they decide to strike again.


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    #2803
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Kivaro wrote: »
    80,000 appointments cancelled to date since they started their strike. 27,000 appointments cancelled today alone. Well done nurses.
    If the government caves in to their demands, it will cost us an extra €300 million every year ..... until they decide to strike again.

    Just shows how integral they are to the health service.


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    #2804
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    Just shows how integral they are to the health service.

    Well, obviously, but, that doesn't mean we can afford their requests for a 12% increase.


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    #2805
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Didn't the INMO accept the terms of the Public Service Stability Agreement which runs until the end of 2020? They are now reneging on that agreement so they can't be negotiated with or trusted. If the government caves in, then it's open season for all the other PS.


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    #2806
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Well, obviously, but, that doesn't mean we can afford their requests for a 12% increase.

    How do you know what the country can and can't afford?


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    #2807
    Donnielighto
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Donnielighto


    I'd be OK with hse investment but they need to cut stuff first.

    For those who are saying nurses are underpaid what is a fair wage, imo they are paid fairly.


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    #2808
    Donnielighto
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Donnielighto


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    How do you know what the country can and can't afford?

    There's a budget and returns published. While we could pay the 12% we'd have to find it somewhere else or raise taxes. If it is to be found somewhere else then those savings should be implemented and evaluated before being considered as an offset for a pay rise. I have no sympathy for the unions tbh, they aren't unions in the traditional sense of looking at working conditions they are just lobby groups for wage rises at this point.


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    #2809
    Outkast_IRE
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    Sure, encourage people into healthcare education by locking them into a contract where they're penalised for working abroad.
    I'm sure you'll have young people flocking to the door.

    Or, you know, they could study literally anything else, for better pay, better conditions and less stress.
    It's one of the most desirable professions in the world because of the high earning potential and the fact you are doing some good for people. There are many countries with this system in place for medical training .

    There would be no shortage of people to take up the opportunity I would stake everything I own on that fact.


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    #2810
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    How do you know what the country can and can't afford?

    The nurses accepted the current pay agreement up to the end of 2020. With nearly 2 years to run on that, they are back looking for 12% now. It's a pay claim dressed up as a dispute about recruitment and conditions.


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    #2811
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users Posts: 23,549 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    They should not be given a cent outside the existing economic stability agreements from the crisis.

    This country was bankrupted 10 years a go and a large part of that crisis was the overpaying of civil servants and frontline staff across the public sector.

    The result was the IMF had to come in here and make decisions for the government.

    Give in to one set and the whole lot will be looking for their cake.

    We can't afford it. We don't need another trauma like 2010 in this country.


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    #2812
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Outkast_IRE wrote: »
    It's one of the most desirable professions in the world because of the high earning potential and the fact you are doing some good for people. There are many countries with this system in place for medical training .

    There would be no shortage of people to take up the opportunity I would stake everything I own on that fact.

    Then why is there a lack of nurses in most of the western world?

    The USA will need 1 million nurses over the next 5 years and they do not and will not exist by then.

    The UK need 50,000 nurses in the next 4 years.

    And here we are, Paddy Ireland, saying "sure they get a fair wage", "we can't afford to pay them", "sure they signed up for those conditions".

    God luck hiring nurses over the next few years. The situation is going to get worse and worse.
    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    They should not be given a cent outside the existing economic stability agreements from the crisis.

    This country was bankrupted 10 years a go and a large part of that crisis was the overpaying of civil servants and frontline staff across the public sector.

    The result was the IMF had to come in here and make decisions for the government.

    Give in to one set and the whole lot will be looking for their cake.

    We can't afford it. We don't need another trauma like 2010 in this country.

    All of that is complete horsesh*t that's been peddled on this thread before and thoroughly disproven


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    #2813
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    How do you know what the country can and can't afford?

    Are you for real? Are you telling me that Pascal called over to you and went through the budget before announcing it nd that you have information none of the rest of us have?

    Healthcare budget has increased by over 40% since 2012. We are already high on the list both in terms of GDP and per capita compared to other countries.

    And you do not see a problem with one group looking for 12% more? A group within which the average is 57K by the way.
    I know, I know, you know loads of nurses who don't earn anywhere near that. That is fine. I agree those on the wards should be paid more. Tell them to strike against the excessive numbers in nursing management roles which has had the consequence of driving the average for the entire nursing group up so high and then I will support them.


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    #2814
    daithi7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭daithi7


    Is anyone reporting in the media how much nurses are already getting (and are due to get) under the existing public pay deal!? (you know the one they want to inflate by their greedy demands)

    Also how much more are they paid versus nurse in the NHS and other similar countries in Europe e.g. Holland, Belgium, etc, etc

    These metrics would be insightful if only they were actually publicised!!


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    #2815
    Yer Da sells Avon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭Yer Da sells Avon


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    They should not be given a cent outside the existing economic stability agreements from the crisis.

    This country was bankrupted 10 years a go and a large part of that crisis was the overpaying of civil servants and frontline staff across the public sector.

    The result was the IMF had to come in here and make decisions for the government.

    Give in to one set and the whole lot will be looking for their cake.

    We can't afford it. We don't need another trauma like 2010 in this country.

    I can assure you, this country was not bankrupted as a result of nurses being paid too much. The state has got away with paying them far too little for far too long.


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    #2816
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    Tell me how wrote: »
    Are you for real? Are you telling me that Pascal called over to you and went through the budget before announcing it nd that you have information none of the rest of us have?

    Healthcare budget has increased by over 40% since 2012. We are already high on the list both in terms of GDP and per capita compared to other countries.

    And you do not see a problem with one group looking for 12% more? A group within which the average is 57K by the way.
    I know, I know, you know loads of nurses who don't earn anywhere near that. That is fine. I agree those on the wards should be paid more. Tell them to strike against the excessive numbers in nursing management roles which has had the consequence of driving the average for the entire nursing group up so high and then I will support them.

    This country need nurses.

    What's the best way to get nurses (that doesn't involve planeloads of fantasy Asians gagging to get into the country as one poster suggested, or taking graduates passports off them as another suggested)


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    #2817
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    daithi7 wrote: »
    Is anyone reporting in the media how much nurses are already getting (and are due to get) under the existing public pay deal!? (you know the one they want to inflate by their greedy demands)

    Also how much more are they paid versus nurse in the NHS and other similar countries in Europe e.g. Holland, Belgium, etc, etc

    These metrics would be insightful if only they were actually publicised!!

    Hmmmm, you know there might be a thread on Boards about it.

    One with about 2800 posts precisely on that topic...


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    #2818
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    This country need nurses.

    What's the best way to get nurses (that doesn't involve planeloads of fantasy Asians gagging to get into the country as one poster suggested, or taking graduates passports off them as another suggested)

    Certainly not by paying the existing nurses 12% outside of the existing public service pay agreements that they actually signed up to just over a year ago.


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    #2819
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Certainly not by paying the existing nurses 12% outside of the existing public service pay agreements that they actually signed up to just over a year ago.

    I'd say that's actually a pretty good start to encouraging more nurses to move here:rolleyes:


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    #2820
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,103 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    I'd say that's actually a pretty good start to encouraging more nurses to move here:rolleyes:

    Is it? This notion that all those nurses in Australia will suddenly come flooding home if the government caves in is laughable in the extreme. Answer this: the nurses signed up to the existing pay agreement that runs to the end of 2020 just over a year ago. Do agreements mean nothing to nurses??


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    #2821
    Pauliedragon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,519 ✭✭✭Pauliedragon


    I will say I'm getting sick of the media in this. The way they're banging on it's as if every Irish nurse abroad were drumbed out the industry. When I lived abroad I met dozens maybe hundreds of Irish nurses. Admittedly none of them were close friends but I knew them well enough to chat to regularly through my job but not one ever said to me they left Ireland because of wages. Conditions were brutal yes. They all left for similar reasons to me. Broaden horizons, meet new people, get away from the **** weather etc. What happened to the Irish one in Melbourne who's on "more than double what she would earn at home" She's on $65000 which is €40000. No quailified nurse is earning less then 20k so either the Indo is lying or she is so why didn't the radio presenter pull her up on that when she was on air? Also the cost of living over there is much higher than here. €40k Euro goes a lot further here then over there. If she wants a house anywhere near Melbourne she'll have to probably double her wage.


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