Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Seanachai

Lillyfae wrote: »

We don't know that it is- some nurses get by on it and some don't. The fact of the matter is, that's life, some people can become millionaires and some can't.

As an aside my own father is a retired nurse (retired at 55 after 35 years of service) and for the life of me I cannot fathom where my parents get their money from. He even went back to night duty for his last 2 years because that's what counts for the pension. The 30 - 35k remark is total rubbish, unless the guy is doing way less than full time work

I suspect that it boils down to if you're single and if not what kind of job your partner has. If you have a farm of land or money behind you it makes living on an a low\average wage a lot easier.

Being single and living on 30 - 35k, you're kind of screwed, especially in Dublin. The way I see things, we should all be striking, it's just that we're not brave or organised enough to stand up to the state.

If my neighbour is struggling and gets a pay rise through taking action, I don't resent them, I ask myself, why the hell am I not doing the same?

1641

Whatever side of the debate you are on, there is an excellent article by Pat Leahy in today's Irish Times - if you can access it:

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-government-cannot-give-in-on-the-nurses-strike-1.3784488

It is going to be very difficult to resolve.

facehugger99

If FG stand firm in the face of Public Sector blackmail, they will secure my vote at the next GE.

Patrick2010

Seanachai wrote: »

I suspect that it boils down to if you're single and if not what kind of job your partner has. If you have a farm of land or money behind you it makes living on an a low\average wage a lot easier.

Being single and living on 30 - 35k, you're kind of screwed, especially in Dublin. The way I see things, we should all be striking, it's just that we're not brave or organised enough to stand up to the state.

If my neighbour is struggling and gets a pay rise through taking action, I don't resent them, I ask myself, why the hell am I not doing the same?

Whats stopping you?


If you're in private industry and you're being paid the market rate for the job you'll be shown the door if you strike but you can always apply for a higher paid position.
For the public service the state has only so much money to pay staff. We're 200 billion in debt and rising. All it'll take is a couple of our big multinationals to pull out and suddenly our finances take a big hit, never mind what will happen with Brexit.

AlanG

A lot of specialist public sector jobs in Dublin have problems with recruitment but like in the case of the nurses the unions wont allow staff working in high pressure areas to be paid more than those who sit on their behinds shuffling papers. Likewise the unions will not tolerate staff in Dublin getting paid more than those in low cost areas.
A massive problem across the Public Sector is the removal of flexi time and half time work upon promotion. There are a lot of nurses in Ireland but a very large proportion do not work full time. If they go for promotion over a certain level they will loose their flex time or half time work. This means a lot of good public servants are not going for promotion and therefore reach the top of their pay scale where by they would expect to be promoted by the time they reach the top of the scale.
Comparisons to Australia are a bit of a joke - hardly anyone who goes to Australia does it for the money. Also when the get there they mostly work as Agency nurses so get paid more (just like Agency nurses in Ireland) as they have given up job security and pensions.
If the housing crises continues the government and unions will eventually have to bring in a Dublin allowance for public servants so they should start looking at that now along with allowances for those nurses working in the highest pressure areas such as A & E. The nurses signed up to a pay agreement not too long ago, it is amazing their union leaders did not foresee this when they agreed to it.

TheRiverman

I see Simon Harris is in the Dail again today giving a statement.Why isn't he and Pascal Donoghue together with HSE executives and the INMO in a room somewhere trying to resolve this ?.Regardless of what the pros and cons of the strike are it has to be resolved,so just heads together and do it.

AlanG

Seanachai wrote: »

The way I see things, we should all be striking, it's just that we're not brave or organised enough to stand up to the state.

We should all be striking for which - higher taxes or more borrowings? We are the state, we elect the government to manage it. It's amazing that so many people dislike big bankers are so keen to give them business and power by borrowing more than the state can afford.

Thephantomsmask

TheRiverman wrote: »

I see Simon Harris is in the Dail again today giving a statement.Why isn't he and Pascal Donoghue together with HSE executives and the INMO in a room somewhere trying to resolve this ?.Regardless of what the pros and cons of the strike are it has to be resolved,so just heads together and do it.

The INMO already refused to enter talks on retention and conditions of they did not involve pay discussions.

BarryD2

Seanachai wrote: »

The way I see things, we should all be striking, it's just that we're not brave or organised enough to stand up to the state.

That's a great attitude to citizenship! It is your duty you know to work, pay taxes, help support those who can't or the ill/ aged etc. Part of the terms & conditions of society.

All most taxpayers ask is that no more tax is collected than necessary and that it is spent wisely & equitably.

What I object to about this strike and other PS union strikes (guards, teachers, transport) is that they use their protected positions & numbers to blackmail the rest of society into ponying up. And there's little or no risk for them in doing this.

Whereas a taxpayer in the private sector, one thing I quickly figured out decades ago - is that no one owes you a living and you're only as good as your last customer/ job.

TheRiverman

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

The INMO already refused to enter talks on retention and conditions of they did not involve pay discussions.

Bottom line,regardless what has or hasn't happened in the past two weeks,it now needs to be resolved.There will surely have to be concessions all round.I don't know enough about industrial relations to have the answers,but the huge issue of shotages of nurses on wards and trying to attract new graduates in some way that involves more that increasing salaries has to hammered out.

acequion

facehugger99 wrote: »

I agree - Government chose to prioritise cuts capital spending rather than reduce spending on PS pay and pensions during the recession.

We're paying for those decisions now - but it's always been more palatable for Ministers to kick infrastructure spending down the road than to stand up to the greedy public servants.

We're still running a deficit.

200 billion in debt and rising.

No more money for nurses.

This thread has thoroughly demolished any arguments regarding poor pay - the basic pay and available allowances are ridiculously generous.

The current strike actions are wholly unjustified, immoral and greedy.

Your overwhelming hatred of the public service has clearly blinded you to the facts. All public servants took an average 15% pay cut during the recession. In fact the recession wasn't 5 minutes old when public pay was cut. Add to that a halving of sick leave entitlements, extra working hours and a further 10 percent cut and vastly inferior pension measures for post 2011 entrants. That's just off the top of my head,there were more cuts on top of those. Those are the hard facts so please stop spouting bull**** and going on as if public servants got off unscathed during the crash when nothing could be further for the truth.

It was all part of the "more for less" philosophy which basically meant that the Govt got away with running the whole infrastructure of services into the ground.

It's ironic that the likes of you and a few others of your ilk are pontificating all day every day about whats "greedy" and "immoral" when it's crystal clear that you haven't an ounce of empathy or broadmindedness to see the big picture.

And one has to wonder what you guys actually do as you have so much time to post your public sector hate speech here.

Thephantomsmask

TheRiverman wrote: »

Bottom line,regardless what has or hasn't happened in the past two weeks,it now needs to be resolved.There will surely have to be concessions all round.I don't know enough about industrial relations to have the answers,but the huge issue of shotages of nurses on wards and trying to attract new graduates in some way that involves more that increasing salaries has to hammered out.

Pay agreements were already discussed during the PSSA which they signed up to and are now breaching the terms of. If they cannot stick by the already agreed terms then why should they be trusted not to breach any new agreements after getting more money? Refusal to address retention just proves this is only about pay. No statement has been issued as to what 12% across the board is going to fix or what the INMO would like to see implemented other than a pay raise. Giving a DON an extra 12K isn't going to keep new graduates in the country.

TheRiverman

Am I right in thinking that there was a cover-up over the spiralling cost of the new Children's Hospital ?.Maybe I am wrong and I stand to be corrected,but reading what RTE are reporting now,it looks like there was.Very hypocritical of Varadkar,Harris and Donoghue to be so bluntly ruling out any negotiations on pay with the nurses If it is true.

Twenty Grand

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So why is it so difficult for the hospitals to recruit full time staff? Why is the ward my wife works on consistently understaffed with respect to nurses/patient numbers?

If the money is so great for such an easy job, why is it so hard to retain the staff that are trained (rather than them going to the UK or Aus) or get people in from foreign countries?

And why is this situation reflected in the UK and Europe?
And why is it solely healthcare providers and not any other profession where graduates are equally as likely to travel and work abroad?
And why are staff from African and Asian countries more prevalent in healthcare than any other industry or service in ireland?

Seanachai

AlanG wrote: »

We should all be striking for which - higher taxes or more borrowings? We are the state, we elect the government to manage it. It's amazing that so many people dislike big bankers are so keen to give them business and power by borrowing more than the state can afford.

I think the era of 'we are the state' was over after 2008, we are clearly not the state, we're untermensch to the priveleged minority that constitute the state. We should be striking for a social housing program and a fit for purpose health system for the taxes that we pay.

Graces7

facehugger99 wrote: »

If FG stand firm in the face of Public Sector blackmail, they will secure my vote at the next GE.

What is irking many of us is that is it the patients who are suffering.

That the nurses are happy to use sick and elderly and disabled folk to try to manipulate the govt into giving them more money. And to go on doing this.

Seanachai

Patrick2010 wrote: »

Whats stopping you?


If you're in private industry and you're being paid the market rate for the job you'll be shown the door if you strike but you can always apply for a higher paid position.
For the public service the state has only so much money to pay staff. We're 200 billion in debt and rising. All it'll take is a couple of our big multinationals to pull out and suddenly our finances take a big hit, never mind what will happen with Brexit.

There's nothing stopping me, in theory, the strike would be aimed at the state, not the companies we work for. Those of us in the private sector are in a much weaker bargaining position, but I'm not jealous of public servants, I just wish we were as organised and cohesive.

Mrsmum

TheRiverman wrote: »

Bottom line,regardless what has or hasn't happened in the past two weeks,it now needs to be resolved.There will surely have to be concessions all round.I don't know enough about industrial relations to have the answers,but the huge issue of shotages of nurses on wards and trying to attract new graduates in some way that involves more that increasing salaries has to hammered out.

It will have to be resolved sometime so I agree they might as well get to it. The nurses will, imo, have to get something, if only as a face saving exercise. If they're feeling hard done by before this, expecting them back in with nothing but egg on their face, I can't see working but the government will also want a face saver or some bargaining chip for other PS unions so they will make some extra demand or remove some perk. There's no such thing as a free lunch so at the end the nurses will get something, the government will take something from them and nothing about conditions will change one bit.

Mad_maxx

FG have to give them something as if they don't, FF will do it like they always do

FF are traditionally the party of the public sector even the union top brass itself supports Labour

Seanachai

BarryD2 wrote: »

That's a great attitude to citizenship! It is your duty you know to work, pay taxes, help support those who can't or the ill/ aged etc. Part of the terms & conditions of society.

All most taxpayers ask is that no more tax is collected than necessary and that it is spent wisely & equitably.

What I object to about this strike and other PS union strikes (guards, teachers, transport) is that they use their protected positions & numbers to blackmail the rest of society into ponying up. And there's little or no risk for them in doing this.

Whereas a taxpayer in the private sector, one thing I quickly figured out decades ago - is that no one owes you a living and you're only as good as your last customer/ job.

I've no problem with my taxes going towards the vulnerable, I do have a serious problem with FG and the people that continue to support them, even after their behaviour in the past few years. So long as FG gives them a certain level of comfort, then damn everybody else!

I've never worked in the public sector, but even the poorest people I knew from previous generations could look forward to the prospect of having some kind of housing of their own. The health system was also fit for purpose. When the state continues to disregard the basic needs that we've entrusted it with providing in return for our taxes, cooperation etc, when do we kick back?

If this strike has the potential to at least bring down this rotten government eventually, it will be a positive thing for me and thousands of other people who are working like dogs and still struggling on this island.

mad muffin

Graces7 wrote: »

What is irking many of us is that is it the patients who are suffering.

That the nurses are happy to use sick and elderly and disabled folk to try to manipulate the govt into giving them more money. And to go on doing this.

Oh is that what irks you? And many of you. The nurses striking and using patients as bargaining chips. That is what irks you? You think the patients are suffering because of the strike? Is that what you think? Is it now? It irks you?

It doesn’t irk you that wards remain empty because there aren’t enough nurses to attend to the bed? It doesn’t irk you that surgeries are canceled because nurses need to be called away from the day ward to fill in in other wards and a&e because there aren’t enough nurses. That doesn’t irk you?

It doesn’t irk you that the government isn’t held accountable for any of it including the stupidly expensive hospital no one wants to be built except those getting their snouts wet. That doesn’t irk you? It doesn’t irk you that the current health crisis is a direct result of the governments austerity measures 10 years ago. That doesn’t irk you?

No what irks you is the thought that suddenly because the nurses are striking the health care and patients are suffering. That irks you?

uptherebels

Seanachai wrote: »

There's nothing stopping me, in theory, the strike would be aimed at the state, not the companies we work for. Those of us in the private sector are in a much weaker bargaining position, but I'm not jealous of public servants, I just wish we as organised and cohesive.

You work for a private company but would go on strick against the state? How would that work?
You are in a weaker position because
There is no magic money tree in the private sector.

Graces7

mad muffin wrote: »

Oh is that what irks you? And many of you. The nurses striking and using patients as bargaining chips. That is what irks you? You think the patients are suffering because of the strike? Is that what you think? Is it now? It irks you?

It doesn’t irk you that wards remain empty because there aren’t enough nurses to attend to the bed? It doesn’t irk you that surgeries are canceled because nurses need to be called away from the day ward to fill in in other words and a&e because there aren’t enough nurses. That doesn’t irk you?

It doesn’t irk you that the government isn’t held accountable for any of it including the stupidly expensive hosputhay no one wants to be built except those getting their snouts wet. That doesn’t irk you? It doesn’t irk you that the current health crisis is a direct result of the governments austerity measures 10 years ago. That doesn’t irk you?

No what irks you is the thought that suddenly because the nurses are striking the health care and patients are suffering. That irks you?

What they are doing is causing more direct suffering. You are bringing in elements that have no place in this dispute. Making a ad situation far far worse. Leaving old and disabled folk with no help, getting surgeries cancelled . Leaving folk in greater pain than anything the govt has done.

Venting your spleen like this has no meaning. The union leaders need to sit down with the govt leaders without abandoning patients. They are not part of this dispute; they are the innocent victims . respect them as such.

Twenty Grand

Graces7 wrote: »

What they are doing is causing more direct suffering. You are bringing in elements that have no place in this dispute. Making a ad situation far far worse. Leaving old and disabled folk with no help, getting surgeries cancelled . Leaving folk in greater pain than anything the govt has done.

Venting your spleen on the patients is inexcusable.

That all happens already, daily.

There's plenty of stories of people who have surgeries cancelled due to strike, but it's actually the second, third or fourth time the surgery was cancelled.

Our health service is crippled for years. I hope this strike highlights these issues and improves conditions and pay for nurses.

Patrick2010

Twenty Grand wrote: »

That all happens already, daily.

There's plenty of stories of people who have surgeries cancelled due to strike, but it's actually the second, third or fourth time the surgery was cancelled.

Our health service is crippled for years. I hope this strike highlights these issues and improves conditions and pay for nurses.

Its only pay increases they are looking for, once they get that they're happy. Operations being cancelled will still get cancelled, it won't change because nurses get more money.

MrMusician18

mad muffin wrote: »

Oh is that what irks you? And many of you. The nurses striking and using patients as bargaining chips. That is what irks you? You think the patients are suffering because of the strike? Is that what you think? Is it now? It irks you?

It doesn’t irk you that wards remain empty because there aren’t enough nurses to attend to the bed? It doesn’t irk you that surgeries are canceled because nurses need to be called away from the day ward to fill in in other wards and a&e because there aren’t enough nurses. That doesn’t irk you?

It doesn’t irk you that the government isn’t held accountable for any of it including the stupidly expensive hospital no one wants to be built except those getting their snouts wet. That doesn’t irk you? It doesn’t irk you that the current health crisis is a direct result of the governments austerity measures 10 years ago. That doesn’t irk you?

No what irks you is the thought that suddenly because the nurses are striking the health care and patients are suffering. That irks you?

Giving into the nurses pay demands won't magic up more nurses to staff those empty wards.

In fact it will make it more difficult for the government to be able to afford to hire more nurses.

In any case, nurses don't deserve what they're looking for, they are not poorly paid.

Thephantomsmask

mad muffin wrote: »

Oh is that what irks you? And many of you. The nurses striking and using patients as bargaining chips. That is what irks you? You think the patients are suffering because of the strike? Is that what you think? Is it now? It irks you?

It doesn’t irk you that wards remain empty because there aren’t enough nurses to attend to the bed? It doesn’t irk you that surgeries are canceled because nurses need to be called away from the day ward to fill in in other wards and a&e because there aren’t enough nurses. That doesn’t irk you?

It doesn’t irk you that the government isn’t held accountable for any of it including the stupidly expensive hospital no one wants to be built except those getting their snouts wet. That doesn’t irk you? It doesn’t irk you that the current health crisis is a direct result of the governments austerity measures 10 years ago. That doesn’t irk you?

No what irks you is the thought that suddenly because the nurses are striking the health care and patients are suffering. That irks you?

All of my patients have been cancelled to suit nurses striking even though I am here and available to work. There is no nursing involvement in my job yet now I am not allowed do it because they aren't here, what a load of bull. Why wouldn't I be irked by my waiting lists growing and yes, believe it or not, my patients suffering through no fault of my own? Even more ridiculous is that we were given a directive from local management that we weren't allowed see patients that did show up for their appointment because it was a HSE wide cancellation.

Graces7

Twenty Grand wrote: »

That all happens already, daily.

There's plenty of stories of people who have surgeries cancelled due to strike, but it's actually the second, third or fourth time the surgery was cancelled.

Our health service is crippled for years. I hope this strike highlights these issues and improves conditions and pay for nurses.

So adding to this ? Adding yet another deliberate, wilful needless cancellation?
We all know things are bad. Many of us have had treatments cancelled. Why add to this?

It has no validity or compassion. It is not highlighted. it is wilfully exacerbating, creating more suffering and chaos

eagle eye

Patrick2010 wrote:

Its only pay increases they are looking for, once they get that they're happy. Operations being cancelled will still get cancelled, it won't change because nurses get more money.

Nursing for most is a vocation, they don't like being out in strike. They want to care for their patients.
You say it's only about pay.
I say it's about all that they've said it's about. It's about having more staff, it's about having proper care for patients.
Yes it's about money too and they deserve it. Their productivity level is extremely high and they should be rewarded for it.

Seanachai

uptherebels wrote: »

You work for a private company but would go on strick against the state? How would that work?
You are in a weaker position because
There is no magic money tree in the private sector.

We're all workers, I'm not looking for more money from my employer, I'm looking for the state to meet it's obligations. I would welcome a general strike,

"General strikes have been done in order to seek "democracy, political representation and the provision of basic education and healthcare". In Europe, general strikes were very common in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

In Portugal, a general strike has been called by the federation of public labour unions to avert austerity measures.

In Honduras, a general strike was called in 2011 by Union workers, farmers and other organisations demanding better education, an increase in the minimum wage and against fuel price hikes."

As I said previously though, FG keep enough people comfortable enough to avoid this. I see these people as being selfish and weak, if Brexit hits us in a severe way though, they may be forced into finding a backbone.