Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Cbumkin

Should nurses get their pay rise ?

No! If they do, the IMPACT trade union (representing allied health professionals) will be on strike next. Then the teachers, the civil servants, and every other cohort of public sector worker feeding from the trough.

The problem of recruitment and retention is not as simple as the INMO and PNA would suggest. Recruitment and retention problems became inevitable when Nursing became a 4 year degree programme. The system is producing a highly educated, ambitious, workforce who are impatient to climb the career ladder. Nursing graduates are not content to spend anything more than a few years working at staff nurse level....which is where the need is at the greatest. Nurses have SO many opportunities for career advancement both within and outside the profession, that they are not going to hang around working on a ward for 10 or 15 years. The majority of young graduates today want to get up that ladder fast. From my knowledge of working as a nurse I would think that there is a greater proportion of nurses with Masters Degrees than in most other professions. Education has become a gravy train and it is one of the biggest reasons why there is a shortage of staff within the service.

Tell me how

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Fair enough on the first point.

On the second, Ireland and every other country is in serious trouble when recruiting healthcare professionals.
I think we as a country need to seriously examine nursing and place massive incentives in place to encourage students to enter the profession.

This will undoubtedly be financial.

Regarding the suggestion to simply increase starting wages, you just end up compressing the wage bands, which leads to less financial reward for time served.

It's a chicken and egg situation.

Can't get the nurses to improve conditions
Can't encourage people into nursing until conditions improve.

Maybe it is that nurses are truly deserving of more money. unfortunately though, if they get it, they will trigger claims from other professions as people will not feel comfortable having lost what was some form of distinction between their role and that of nursing as well as thinking well they way to progress is to shout louder.

On recruiting healthcare professionals worldwide, I do agree that it is problem, but I don't understand how our budget as increased by so much in a short space of time and yet we are now saying that it has to go further.

Everyone says the HSE needs to change, no one wants their area to be one that changes. It's all well and good nurses saying that the money could be found from within the existing healthcare budget, but can they tell us specifically where it is being wasted? That is what I think needs to happen. There are two many groups eager to paint the government as the bad man but not being willing to have a light shone on their practices.

Martina1991

Twenty Grand wrote:

Regarding the suggestion to simply increase starting wages, you just end up compressing the wage bands, which leads to less financial reward for time served.

Would less points on a pay scale not be better? To be on more money quicker and not have to work for 15+years to reach the top of the scale.

beejee

I'll crosspost from the impending ambulance strike thread.

Medical staff, with a broad brush, are getting paid at, or above, average wage.

They don't want more money for the sake of it, they need more money to keep up with the runaway inflation in the country. They luckily have a gigantic union behind them whereas most people don't.

This isn't going to work out. Paying more money is akin to chugging more and more coal into a train furnace while simultaneously hoping it slows down because youre running out of coal. This is nonsense. Its barking mad.

To be clear, it isn't wages that's the problem, its the costs of this country. But all attention shall be focused on wages until the train comes hurtling off the tracks. Again.

earlyevening

beejee wrote: »

They don't want more money for the sake of it, they need more money to keep up with the runaway inflation in the country. They luckily have a gigantic union behind them whereas most people don't.

To be clear, it isn't wages that's the problem, its the costs of this country. But all attention shall be focused on wages until the train comes hurtling off the tracks. Again.

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/inflation-cpi
Ireland's annual inflation rate picked up to 0.7 percent in December 2018 from a five-month low of 0.6 percent in the previous month

namloc1980

beejee wrote: »

I'll crosspost from the impending ambulance strike thread.

Medical staff, with a broad brush, are getting paid at, or above, average wage.

They don't want more money for the sake of it, they need more money to keep up with the runaway inflation in the country. They luckily have a gigantic union behind them whereas most people don't.

This isn't going to work out. Paying more money is akin to chugging more and more coal into a train furnace while simultaneously hoping it slows down because youre running out of coal. This is nonsense. Its barking mad.

To be clear, it isn't wages that's the problem, its the costs of this country. But all attention shall be focused on wages until the train comes hurtling off the tracks. Again.

Runaway inflation??? You must've confused Ireland for Zimbabwe or Venezuela.

beejee

earlyevening wrote: »

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/inflation-cpi
Ireland's annual inflation rate picked up to 0.7 percent in December 2018 from a five-month low of 0.6 percent in the previous month

No matter what way you cut it, this country in its entirety is spending more than it earns, with a ratio something along the lines of 100% +

Stick your finger in the air and everything is going up in price, while falling apart. Nurses strikes and the new hospital, housing costs, vat increases, Brexit impacts, eu impacts, fictitious corporation taxes, cost of a sandwich, insurance, decreasing stability etc. If this is as good as it gets, we are going to come crashing down hard. Maximum exposure, that will cut through us like a fat child through cake :P

Whats the point of giving someone an extra 100 euro a year, when in a years time overall costs are going to be 200 euro extra? Its not going to work out, not a snowballs chance in hell. Expect more and more strikes and protests coming out of the woodwork by years end.

beejee

namloc1980 wrote: »

Runaway inflation??? You must've confused Ireland for Zimbabwe or Venezuela.

"inflation" wasn't necessarily the best choice of word. Its very easy to hide behind some statistics, especially this country. Just look around, that's all you need do.

earlyevening

beejee wrote: »

No matter what way you cut it, this country in its entirety is spending more than it earns, with a ratio something along the lines of 100% +

Stick your finger in the air and everything is going up in price, while falling apart. Nurses strikes and the new hospital, housing costs, vat increases, Brexit impacts, eu impacts, fictitious corporation taxes, cost of a sandwich, insurance, decreasing stability etc. If this is as good as it gets, we are going to come crashing down hard. Maximum exposure, that will cut through us like a fat child through cake :P

Whats the point of giving someone an extra 100 euro a year, when in a years time overall costs are going to be 200 euro extra? Its not going to work out, not a snowballs chance in hell. Expect more and more strikes and protests coming out of the woodwork by years end.

Inflation will be be caused by increasing salaries - you want to review the basic fundamentals of economics

backspin.

earlyevening wrote: »

https://tradingeconomics.com/ireland/inflation-cpi
Ireland's annual inflation rate picked up to 0.7 percent in December 2018 from a five-month low of 0.6 percent in the previous month

The cost of housing is a big problem, especially for the under 40's.

beejee

earlyevening wrote: »

Inflation will be be caused by increasing salaries - you want to review the basic fundamentals of economics

Here is THE fundamental of economics: You spend more than you make = trouble.

Every other sub-division is a spongy, malleable statistic to twist.

BarryD2

Seanachai wrote: »

I've never worked in the public sector, but even the poorest people I knew from previous generations could look forward to the prospect of having some kind of housing of their own. The health system was also fit for purpose. When the state continues to disregard the basic needs that we've entrusted it with providing in return for our taxes, cooperation etc, when do we kick back?

Kick away, but know that you are the cash cow. Sure give the INMO their extra €300M annually or double that or more with consequent pay rises for other grades. They'll be grand. But you may 1) expect there to be cuts elsewhere, try slashing that off the social housing budget and you'll hear the howls and/ or 2) are you happy to pony up lots of extra tax?

There's no free lunch here. Someone's gonna pay for it.

And at end of the day, the extra spend will make the hiring of more nurses difficult, so the safety argument is meaningless.

alloywheel

beejee wrote: »

Here is THE fundamental of economics: You spend more than you make = trouble.

And the nurses employer the government, has been spending more than they make, much more, hence the reason the national debt has increased to approx 200 BILLION.

No way can the government be blackmailed in to paying even higher pay to nurses when it has been shown their pay and pensions are among some of the highest in the world.

CiarraiAbu2

Are their wages been deducted while they are on strike, would seem nearly impossible for the amount on strike.

hawkelady

CiarraiAbu2 wrote: »

Are their wages been deducted while they are on strike, would seem nearly impossible for the amount on strike.

Yes , of course.

beejee

BarryD2 wrote: »

Kick away, but know that you are the cash cow. Sure give the INMO their extra €300M annually or double that or more with consequent pay rises for other grades. They'll be grand. But you may 1) expect there to be cuts elsewhere, try slashing that off the social housing budget and you'll hear the howls and/ or 2) are you happy to pony up lots of extra tax?

There's no free lunch here. Someone's gonna pay for it.

And at end of the day, the extra spend will make the hiring of more nurses difficult, so the safety argument is meaningless.

I understand where youre coming from, but I think you are making the greatest mistake ie assuming nothing changes.

People do it all the time, think linearly. The one key phrase for all this is "timing"

Heres bad timing for you: trying to build housing when record prices are being set each day for property. Do it when you have record numbers of people entering the country. Building a hospital with record property prices everywhere. Giving pay increases to huge numbers of people, when its only going to be devoured by record costs. Getting a gigantic loan for a very, very long time when at record prices, whether for cars, holidays or housing. Just a few easy examples of laughably bad "timing", while also having the benefit of eliminating all and any savings you are trying to put away as a country/individual.

The problem, of course, is that "we" do things backwards here. These are supposed to be the good times, yet we aren't saving a bean for the future. That's why this crap is cyclical, constantly tripping from one crisis into another, over and over again.

Anyone with a head on their shoulders could see this coming 15 years ago.

So heres an alternative: Halt the hospital right now. Recoup as much money as possible. Stick it in a bomb-proof savings box, add to it regularly. Everything is going to economically explode sooner rather than later. Let it happen. Let everything sink into the ground, pull your fat wad of cash and get 10 times the value of it and build a hospital several magnitudes better and larger.

A single euro has had vastly different buying power even within the last 15 years. This country is a "buy high, sell low" kind of person. How much of the country was bought up by foreign interests during the last cycle? It really is as easy that, no matter what anyone moans about, its that simple.

beejee

alloywheel wrote: »

And the nurses employer the government, has been spending more than they make, much more, hence the reason the national debt has increased to approx 200 BILLION.

No way can the government be blackmailed in to paying even higher pay to nurses when it has been shown their pay and pensions are among some of the highest in the world.

This is more or less my point. This is doomed. Theres no way this country is going to crawl out of this situation. This nursing strike is indicator number 5'343 so far, and we haven't even hit the juicy stuff yet.

Wheeliebin30

beejee wrote: »

I understand where youre coming from, but I think you are making the greatest mistake ie assuming nothing changes.

People do it all the time, think linearly. The one key phrase for all this is "timing"

Heres bad timing for you: trying to build housing when record prices are being set each day for property. Do it when you have record numbers of people entering the country. Building a hospital with record property prices everywhere. Giving pay increases to huge numbers of people, when its only going to be devoured by record costs. Getting a gigantic loan for a very, very long time when at record prices, whether for cars, holidays or housing. Just a few easy examples of laughably bad "timing", while also having the benefit of eliminating all and any savings you are trying to put away as a country/individual.

The problem, of course, is that "we" do things backwards here. These are supposed to be the good times, yet we aren't saving a bean for the future. That's why this crap is cyclical, constantly tripping from one crisis into another, over and over again.

Anyone with a head on their shoulders could see this coming 15 years ago.

So heres an alternative: Halt the hospital right now. Recoup as much money as possible. Stick it in a bomb-proof savings box, add to it regularly. Everything is going to economically explode sooner rather than later. Let it happen. Let everything sink into the ground, pull your fat wad of cash and get 10 times the value of it and build a hospital several magnitudes better and larger.

A single euro has had vastly different buying power even within the last 15 years. This country is a "buy high, sell low" kind of person. How much of the country was bought up by foreign interests during the last cycle? It really is as easy that, no matter what anyone moans about, its that simple.

In fairness we put away a rainy day fund last year for the future.

beejee

beejee wrote: »

.....

Anyone with a head on their shoulders could see this coming 15 years ago.

...

What could you see in 2004 exactly?
A bust....recovery & a nursing strike when house prices were high again in 2019?
Bullsheet

BTW...economics 101....run away from any cnut suggesting they can time markets....pure sign of a clueless w@nker

beejee

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

In fairness we put away a rainy day fund last year for the future.

I.O.U's don't count :P Even assuming that they did put away a sufficient amount of money (no way they did), they are still "buying high" now, to inevitably "sell low" later.

alloywheel

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

In fairness we put away a rainy day fund last year for the future.

The rainy day fund would only pay nurses pensions for a month, not pay back the 200 billlion plus interest the country owes.

beejee

Augeo wrote: »

What could you see in 2004 exactly?
A bust....recovery & a nursing strike when house prices were high again in 2019?
Bullsheet

BTW...economics 101....run away from any cnut suggesting they can time markets....pure sign of a clueless w@nker

No, not bullsheet at all.

Its not about timing markets down to the second. You can be as lazy as time it down to the blooming year or two :P

Do you seriously think, genuinely, that everyone lost money when everyone else lost money, and vice versa? You need to be crazy to believe that. There are entities and individuals who make absolute killings at the expense of everyone else being morons. Look at all the vulture funds who swooped in the country when it was on its knees, how clever did you have to be to see this place was ripe for the plucking? Not very, is the answer.

Its not some genius mind that can only do it! Its as simple as self-awareness, awareness of your environment. You can make a lot of money in good times, but generational wealth is made during "bad" times.

Any clown that is heavily investing their time/lives/efforts on the current state of affairs?! Good luck!

Its not "timing the markets", its just plain old common sense.

mad muffin

What exactly do people think is going to happen if the nurses go back to work without an agreement?

Will it be all sunshine and lollipops?

All of a sudden people will be getting letters to come in for their procedures?

Waiting lists will be greatly reduced?

What exactly?

Okays so they come to some agreement where they slightly increase the pay for new nurses to entice people to go into nursing.

They get their nursing degree and are then headhunted by countries with better pay and conditions. Australia. Canada. UAE. Saudi.

Back to square one.

They need to make sure that people going into nursing and in nursing want to stay in Ireland. Because nurses are needed worldwide and there are many countries that will have our nurses.

tretorn

Plenty of people go into nursing with the idea that they will do something else in the future, eg go into business like sale of pharmaceuticals or even go from nursing into Physio therapy as a mature student.

This will happen regardless of salary and so will nurses travelling to Dubai and Australia, who in their early twenties wants to settle down to life in Ireland when there are opportunities to travel and see the world.

beejee

mad muffin wrote: »

What exactly do people think is going to happen if the nurses go back to work without an agreement?

Will it be all sunshine and lollipops?

All of a sudden people will be getting letters to come in for their procedures?

Waiting lists will be greatly reduced?

What exactly?

Okays so they come to some agreement where they slightly increase the pay for new nurses to entice people to go into nursing.

They get their nursing degree and are then headhunted by countries with better pay and conditions. Australia. Canada. UAE. Saudi.

Back to square one.

They need to make sure that people going into nursing and in nursing want to stay in Ireland. Because nurses are needed worldwide and there are many countries that will have our nurses.

That's just it, its all linear thought.

"this is going well, therefore it will go well forever. Lets build our entire future on this prediction and ignore all the warning sirens getting ever louder (nevermind basic mathematics)."

Why not throw the nurses 10 times their wage? All we do in this country is play pretend with finances and planning. Whether 10 times more or 10 times less, this system is going to crash.

Gael23

Will be interesting to see what happens when public opinion eventually turns against the nurses, and that will soon happen

Wheeliebin30

Gael23 wrote: »

Will be interesting to see what happens when public opinion eventually turns against the nurses, and that will soon happen

Doubt it.

People read Facebook pages and twitter who spout lies in support of anything against the government.

Prime example- water meters give you cancer.

Tell me how

mad muffin wrote: »

What exactly do people think is going to happen if the nurses go back to work without an agreement?

Will it be all sunshine and lollipops?

All of a sudden people will be getting letters to come in for their procedures?

Waiting lists will be greatly reduced?

What exactly?

Okays so they come to some agreement where they slightly increase the pay for new nurses to entice people to go into nursing.

They get their nursing degree and are then headhunted by countries with better pay and conditions. Australia. Canada. UAE. Saudi.

Back to square one.

They need to make sure that people going into nursing and in nursing want to stay in Ireland. Because nurses are needed worldwide and there are many countries that will have our nurses.

If they go back to work without an agreement, it will not be any better immediately, in fact the problems will be compounded with trying to make up for lost days and with a disgruntled workforce.

But, hopefully, it will have helped to focus minds that improvements have to be made and solutions have to be suggested, beyond just a 12% pay rise.

As I said previously, maybe nurses will suggest changes in practice or structure which will help improve the situation. Or maybe someone else will suggest them and there will be less of an argument that they cannot work.

Gael23

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Doubt it.

People read Facebook pages and twitter who spout lies in support of anything against the government.

Prime example- water meters give you cancer.

The more operations and appointments are cancelled the greater public anger will grow

Topgear on Dave

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Prime example- water meters give you cancer.

They do if you eat enough of them!