Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

batgoat · 05-01-2019 01:14PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Ah sure just let them do what they want while pregnant.
Have you been through a pregnancy with a partner? I have and there were some rough times for her where it was approaching the end if the world in her mind.
If you think that's normal behaviour and that they should be allowed to make monumental decisions on their own at those times then there is something wrong with you imo.

So pregnant women should not be allowed to make any legal decisions on their own for example. This is how your logic follows.

uptherebels · 05-01-2019 01:51PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Ah sure just let them do what they want while pregnant.

So you want to tell them what to do instead?
This may come as a shock to you but women don't need you to look after them, even pregnant women.

Calina · 05-01-2019 02:02PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Ah sure just let them do what they want while pregnant.
Have you been through a pregnancy with a partner? I have and there were some rough times for her where it was approaching the end if the world in her mind.
If you think that's normal behaviour and that they should be allowed to make monumental decisions on their own at those times then there is something wrong with you imo.

That logic suggests that because some men kill their partners, no men should be allowed to live with women in case the kill their wife or girlfriend.

I feel sorry for your partner as it seems she may have had a difficult time. But her experiences cannot be mapped on to every other woman in the country and you should not try. How many of the rough times were in the first 12 weeks of her pregnancy and while we are at it, did she know she was pregnant for certain immediately?

Not allowing women to make their own decisions without making it hard for them to do so - ie by adding hoops for them to do so via wand scans and psych assessments is paternalistic and sexist.

You don't trust women as adults and use pregnancy as a punishment.

eagle eye · 05-01-2019 02:20PM

uptherebels wrote:

So you want to tell them what to do instead? This may come as a shock to you but women don't need you to look after them, even pregnant women.

No I want them to see a psychologist to deem if they are mentally sound enough to make the decision.

Calina · 05-01-2019 02:22PM

eagle eye wrote: »

No I want them to see a psychologist to deem if they are mentally sound enough to make the decision.

Because you consider women as less able than yourself specifically because they are women.

wench · 05-01-2019 02:25PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Ah sure just let them do what they want while pregnant.
Have you been through a pregnancy with a partner? I have and there were some rough times for her where it was approaching the end if the world in her mind.
If you think that's normal behaviour and that they should be allowed to make monumental decisions on their own at those times then there is something wrong with you imo.

What should we do with pregnant women who are single? Have the state appoint a man to make their decisions for them?

eagle eye · 05-01-2019 02:26PM

Calina wrote:

Because you consider women as less able than yourself specifically because they are women.

No, because they are pregnant and it can affect their decision making process.
Go find me a respected medical opinion that says pregnancy doesn't affect a woman's mental health.

I don't consider myself above women. I don't consider myself smarter than women.

Zubeneschamali · 05-01-2019 02:28PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't consider myself smarter than women.

Just as well.

dudara · 05-01-2019 02:33PM

eagle eye wrote: »

I've been thinking about it and I really do believe that any woman having an abortion should have to have a psychological examination before they can get an abortion. Mental health is hugely important and if a person is suffering they can make a decision which they regret for the rest of their lives.

Saying superficially reasonable things doesn’t make you more reasonable. It is an individual woman’s decision. Counseling service should be available if she wants to avail of them, but it should it not be mandatory. That is being judgemental.

Also, pregnancy does not addle women’s brains. Dealing with this kind of sh*te on the other hand...

SusieBlue · 05-01-2019 03:03PM

I can’t believe we’ve come back almost full circle to the idea of committees (made up of men, of course) determining whether a woman should have an abortion or not, on her behalf.

gctest50 · 05-01-2019 03:14PM

SusieBlue wrote: »

I can’t believe we’ve come back almost full circle to the idea of committees (made up of men, of course) determining whether a woman should have an abortion or not, on her behalf.

It's because the VHI etc will pay for up to 6 months psych. care

So just open a few facilities( without the septic tanks this time) get a few in there and before you know it, it's the norm

You'll see Berry Kiely going on about it here :

martingriff · 05-01-2019 03:15PM

eagle eye wrote: »

No, because they are pregnant and it can affect their decision making process.
Go find me a respected medical opinion that says pregnancy doesn't affect a woman's mental health.

I don't consider myself above women. I don't consider myself smarter than women.

I am guessing you have a respected medical opinion to prove this assurance.

Sofiztikated · 05-01-2019 04:50PM

eagle eye wrote: »

No, because they are pregnant and it can affect their decision making process.
Go find me a respected medical opinion that says pregnancy doesn't affect a woman's mental health.

I don't consider myself above women. I don't consider myself smarter than women.

So, a woman with mental health issues brought on by pregnancy, who has been deemed unfit to make decisions, must remain pregnant, and then raise a child, while making all sorts of decisions for another person until that person is capable of living independently.

Right, that's really well thought through.

Sofiztikated · 05-01-2019 04:56PM

martingriff wrote: »

I am guessing you have a respected medical opinion to prove this assurance.

Baby brain or momnesia is a real thing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/baby-brain-pregnancy-real-memory-loss-task-performance-worse-women-research-a8161921.html

The big thing to point out is that all women were still within normal range, and they won't turn into dribbling idiots the second they get a bit of jizz inside them.

05-01-2019 05:34PM

Thread just keeps giving! Pre referendum this stuff made me angry and scared. Now I find it quite funny.

eviltwin · 05-01-2019 05:40PM

eagle eye wrote: »

No, because they are pregnant and it can affect their decision making process.
Go find me a respected medical opinion that says pregnancy doesn't affect a woman's mental health.

I don't consider myself above women. I don't consider myself smarter than women.

Your limited experience of pregnancy shows. I've had three pregnancies, if I was deemed mentally OK to continue with two why would my mental health be an issue for the one I terminated?

05-01-2019 05:58PM

I wonder when a woman requests an abortion should she maybe be sectioned instead? That would never happen in Ireland would it?

eagle eye · 05-01-2019 06:41PM

eviltwin wrote:

Your limited experience of pregnancy shows. I've had three pregnancies, if I was deemed mentally OK to continue with two why would my mental health be an issue for the one I terminated?

A psychologist could answer that for you.

volchitsa · 05-01-2019 06:51PM

eagle eye wrote: »

A psychologist could answer that for you.

I don't think a psychologist would ever make such a claim though. If a woman's mental health is damaged by pregnancy, then surely it's something that needs to be avoided and not enforced on her?

(And before anyone goes off on some mad rant, I'm not saying women should be forced to have abortions, bla bla bla, I'm pointing out the completely bonkers "logic" behind the whole notion that merely being pregnant might render a woman incapable of making a sensible decision about her life. It's misogynistic nonsense.)

volchitsa · 05-01-2019 06:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Thread just keeps giving! Pre referendum this stuff made me angry and scared. Now I find it quite funny.

Yes me too, Thank F... we never have to take these people seriously ever again.

eagle eye · 05-01-2019 07:10PM

volchitsa wrote:

Yes me too, Thank F... we never have to take these people seriously ever again.

As long as you are not throwing me in with the no campaigners that's fine.
If you are then I'll just assume you are uneducated and cannot read properly.

volchitsa · 05-01-2019 07:29PM

eagle eye wrote: »

As long as you are not throwing me in with the no campaigners that's fine.
If you are then I'll just assume you are uneducated and cannot read properly.

No idea why you would think I was thinking about you at all. It was a comment about the sorts of notions being presented here, that women can't make sensibility decisions because they are pregnant, or that forcing someone irresponsible to carry a child is a good idea because it's likely to make them more responsible. Or nonsense about psychiatrists.

If you find yourself making crazy anti woman remarks like that, I don't care how you voted, I think your attitude to women is a bit off.

If you didn't, or if you were just being flippant, then chill out. It's about those comments not about the vote.

eagle eye · 05-01-2019 07:39PM

volchitsa wrote:

If you find yourself making crazy anti woman remarks like that, I don't care how you voted, I think your attitude to women is a bit off.

You see I know that women who I know like me a lot because I'm always fair, courteous and helpful.
My opinion is based on personal experience and from reading.
Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

volchitsa · 05-01-2019 08:07PM

eagle eye wrote: »

You see I know that women who I know like me a lot because I'm always fair, courteous and helpful.
My opinion is based on personal experience and from reading.
Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

I don't entirely disagree, and unlike some people here I don't think that neutral, objective counselling sessions are a bad idea, as long as they don't end up pushing someone too close to the date limit - but it would be enough IMO to have option of not having to respect that delay once the woman gets to within a week or 10 days of that limit. For the others I have no problem with it on principle.

However I'm not sure that "what if the woman regrets her decision" is a useful position to take if we're considering whether to legalise abortion or not - adults do make mistakes in the decisions they make but we don't remove their right to make those mistakes all the same.

For example we don't ban marriage just because some people end up wanting a divorce, we just try to ensure that people think more carefully about marriage in the first place.

eagle eye · 05-01-2019 08:28PM

volchitsa wrote:

I don't entirely disagree, and unlike some people here I don't think that neutral, objective counselling sessions are a bad idea, as long as they don't end up pushing someone too close to the date limit - but it would be enough IMO to have option of not having to respect that delay once the woman gets to within a week or 10 days of that limit. For the others I have no problem with it on principle.

Yeah these things should all get done professionally and immediately.
I think it'd be be very important to ensure that the professionals doing the interview do not have a pro-life stance because there is no way you could trust that person to allow an abortion.

volchitsa wrote:

However I'm not sure that "what if the woman regrets her decision" is a useful position to take if we're considering whether to legalise abortion or not - adults do make mistakes in the decisions they make but we don't remove their right to make those mistakes all the same.

It's more than regret though. When somebody tells you they weren't in their right mind when they made the decision.

volchitsa wrote:

For example we don't ban marriage just because some people end up wanting a divorce, we just try to ensure that people think more carefully about marriage in the first place.

I don't think you can compare the two.

Igotadose · 05-01-2019 08:29PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

I'd say to her she's been victimized by the endless stigmatization by the church and its lackeys to believe she did something wrong, and to look into what the 'shout my abortion' folks are about. The church-lackeys 'protesting' outside that clinic in Galway are just part of the stigmatization. Cut it the f**k out and get your anti-women jollies elsewhere, like in /r/The_Donald where that type belongs.

https://shoutyourabortion.com/

eviltwin · 05-01-2019 08:29PM

eagle eye wrote: »

A psychologist could answer that for you.

but why do you assume not wanting to continue with a pregnancy is indicative of a mental health issue when continuing with the pregnancy isn't

You're assuming choosing abortion is a symptom of an illness as a result of your own bias.

I know I would terminate if I found out I was pregnant, am I mentally ill?

eviltwin · 05-01-2019 08:33PM

eagle eye wrote: »

You see I know that women who I know like me a lot because I'm always fair, courteous and helpful.
My opinion is based on personal experience and from reading.
Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

People make decisions they regret all the time. You can't police bad choices. Most women don't regret their abortions and move on as normal, why should they be denied choice based on the actions of a few?

volchitsa · 05-01-2019 08:50PM

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah these things should all get done professionally and immediately.
I think it'd be be very important to ensure that the professionals doing the interview do not have a pro-life stance because there is no way you could trust that person to allow an abortion.

I don't agree. I would think if a healthcare professional isn't capable of removing their personal opinions from their professional interactions with the adult in front of them they probably shouldn't be in that profession at all.

It's more than regret though. When somebody tells you they weren't in their right mind when they made the decision.

I can easily imagine that happening in Ireland pre-repeal, precisely because abortion was such a huge taboo and keeping it all secret was probably the most important thing for some women.

Being able to talk about the issues in confidence, preferably with a nonjudgmental professional, should hopefully allow women who might otherwise have been too caught up in the shame and secrecy and just the problems of organising the journey to England to work things through and maybe change their minds.

I've always said that the claim that having to travel gives extra time to think was arrant nonsense - but I know someone (not in Ireland) who went three or four times to the abortion clinic before finally making her decision - how could someone in Ireland afford to do that?

I don't think you can compare the two.

Course you can. Both are life changing decisions, getting married, or not, having a baby, or not. What you mean is you don't like the idea of abortion, but that's a different thing.

SusieBlue · 05-01-2019 08:59PM

eagle eye wrote: »

You see I know that women who I know like me a lot because I'm always fair, courteous and helpful.
My opinion is based on personal experience and from reading.
Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

I’m sure that despite those women thinking that of you, they’d rather make their own decisions for themselves though.
Being a fair, courteous helpful person doesn’t qualify you to make a choice on behalf of anyone else.

Statistically, 97% of women do not regret their abortion, I can show you a study to back this up if you wish.
It’s unfortunate your friend didn’t have any support when making her own choice, but that isn’t a good enough reason to humiliate other women by making them jump through more hoops when they are comfortable with their decision.

Support and guidance should absolutely be there for the women who choose to avail of such help, but there is no reason for it to be mandatory.

Someone regretting something is not a good enough reason to take the choice away from others.

Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

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