Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

eviltwin

eagle eye wrote: »

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

by making it virtually impossible for them to access abortion. that makes sense :rolleyes:

gandalf

eagle eye wrote: »

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

But how are you protecting someone if you force them to carry a child that they may not want? I understand your motives but I feel they are skewed.

eagle eye

eagle eye wrote: »

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

Brick wall.

I don't even have to do this anymore (2018 burnout anyone else?). I'm surprised I even engaged you TBH since I lay down on the 26th of May last year and could finally breathe again .

I'm not hating on you, I just recognise there is no getting through. I admire your diligence but could maybe do with stepping away from the thread.

I know I am going to now. The hours iput in online and streets and door to door paid off, and honestly I am still tired.

volchitsa

Deleted User wrote: »

Brick wall.

I don't even have to do this anymore (2018 burnout anyone else?). I'm surprised I even engaged you TBH since I lay down on the 26th of May last year and could finally breathe again .

I'm not hating on you, I just recognise there is no getting through. I admire your diligence but could maybe do with stepping away from the thread.

I know I am going to now. The hours iput in online and streets and door to door paid off, and honestly I am still tired.

This, totally. We don't need to do it any more, but old habits die hard!

But the relief, every time I find myself in one of those pointless to and fros, when suddenly I think "I don't care that this person is probably lying, the referendum is over and we flipping won! I can just drop it now and we will still have won!" And yeah, being able to breathe. That's exactly it.

Wrongway1985

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't think they are or would. At least not the ones in my own locality.

I was referring to on boards at least, you've been thanked by them

volchitsa

You really seem determined to make this all about you. I have no idea why.

Perhaps you have no idea just how fking hard it has been to be called baby killers and worse on various sites (boards is pretty well moderated compared to Twitter or even politics.ie) or just to have to repeat over and over that nom I don't want lots of abortions to happen, I just recognise that they do, - and to have had to respond carefully without telling them to fck off.

So no, I wasn't thinking about you, and I wasn't referring to you, it was a general comment about the feeling of now being able to breathe, because we don't have to do it all again and because women in Ireland no longer risk being put in a fking mental hospital for asking for an abortion.

But hey, yeah, make it all about you. :rolleyes:

eviltwin

That's a pretty extreme response to feeling your being outed as a liar.

Maybe you can use that self awareness to imagine how women feel being told we need a psych evaluation before having agency over our own bodies.......

volchitsa

You know what eagle eye (and this time I am talking to you, and about you) I was a bit stunned by your hostile reaction twice in a row now, when I thought I replied perfectly civilly to you, so I read back over your posts, and what comes through is really a huge amount of personal projection of your issues onto everyone else.

You think people are calling you names when they're making general comments, you think because you had mental health issues that all women have to be protected from making "wrong" decisions (by forcing them to remain pregnant, which for sure is going to fix their mental health issues) and so on and so forth.

I really would suggest you look at your own issues first. I'm sure you'll take that as badly as my previous comments which only very tangentially related to anything you had said, but this time it's my considered opinion, so I don't mind in the least if it annoys you. At least you'll have a reason for it! :rolleyes:

eagle eye

eviltwin wrote:

Maybe you can use that self awareness to imagine how women feel being told we need a psych evaluation before having agency over our own bodies.......

So you don't give a **** if somebody goes and has an abortion, then realises it was a huge mistake which happened because their mind wasn't right at the time?

volchitsa wrote:

But hey, yeah, make it all about you.

You are very mistaken if you think I'm making this about myself.
I have no right to tell any woman that they should or should not have an abortion. I'm not qualified to do that. There should be somebody qualified that you have to talk to before you go through such a huge procedure though in my opinion. This will never stop a perfectly healthy person from having an abortion. It might stop somebody that isn't ready to make that decision or isn't healthy enough to realise they actually want to have a child.
I understand all the abuse you took from Bible bashing idiots. Personally it just washes off me as I really don't care what they think. The fact that I'm a big strong guy who is not afraid to stand face to face with them and put it up to them probably helps.
I do honestly feel sorry for all the women who were put through hell by the Catholic Church and the idiots that believe every word rather than use their brains.

eviltwin

eagle eye wrote: »

So you don't give a **** if somebody goes and has an abortion, then realises it was a huge mistake which happened because their mind wasn't right at the time?

I'm not sure where you get the idea I "don't give a sh1t". Where did I say anything remotely like that?

I think you just have an issue with women wanting abortions and have to make it as difficult and humiliating as possible.

If you were using logic you'd realise most women are well able to make a sound decision and most don't experience regret.

Anyway it's all moot so debate is pointless.

And I agree with Volchitsa, you are making this way too personal

volchitsa

volchitsa wrote: »

This, totally. We don't need to do it any more, but old habits die hard!

But the relief, every time I find myself in one of those pointless to and fros, when suddenly I think "I don't care that this person is probably lying, the referendum is over and we flipping won! I can just drop it now and we will still have won!" And yeah, being able to breathe. That's exactly it.

I was at a gig in Belfast when my pro life Catholic friend text me and told me the exit polls. That I thought was very big of him and I have told him so. I was hungover to hell sitting in the back seat of a tour bus trying not to vomit with the bumpy roads when my friend (another pro choice lady, a midwife too!) text me and said "We F**KING done it!" I burst into tears. I was burned out. We effing did it. Me and you and every woman and man who marched, bought the merch, posted online, we ALL did it. Now we don't even have to argue anymore. Virtual hugs, seems we both need and deserve it!

volchitsa

eagle eye wrote: »

So you don't give a **** if somebody goes and has an abortion, then realises it was a huge mistake which happened because their mind wasn't right at the time

That's not what she said.

eagle eye wrote: »

You are very mistaken if you think I'm making this about myself.

Read your own posts. Yes you are. Repeatedly.

If you can't see that, i can't help you, but I think it's obvious to anyone reading your posts and your reactions to other posts.

eagle eye wrote: »

I have no right to tell any woman that they should or should not have an abortion. I'm not qualified to do that. There should be somebody qualified that you have to talk to before you go through such a huge procedure though in my opinion. This will never stop a perfectly healthy person from having an abortion. It might stop somebody that isn't ready to make that decision or isn't healthy enough to realise they actually want to have a child.

As I said before, I have no issue with that, but you've said a whole lot more thn that.

eagle eye wrote: »

I understand all the abuse you took from Bible bashing idiots. Personally it just washes off me as I really don't care what they think. The fact that I'm a big strong guy who is not afraid to stand face to face with them and put it up to them probably helps.

That wasn't my point but never mind.

eagle eye wrote: »

I do honestly feel sorry for all the women who were put through hell by the Catholic Church and the idiots that believe every word rather than use their brains.

OK.

NuMarvel

eagle eye wrote: »

Ah sure just let them do what they want while pregnant.

Well, yeah. What's wrong with that? Pregnant people already have that right in every other aspect of their life, so why not allow them bodily integrity early in in pregnancy?

eagle eye wrote: »

No, because they are pregnant and it can affect their decision making process.
Go find me a respected medical opinion that says pregnancy doesn't affect a woman's mental health.

You may be shocked to discover this but having a mental illness doesn't automatically mean someone lacks capacity to make a decision about their health care. The vast majority of people who are being treated for mental illness are free to live their lives as they wish, and to accept or refuse treatment (and not just for their mental illness).

eagle eye wrote: »

My opinion is based on personal experience and from reading.

You came into this thread not realising there was going to be new legislation after the referendum, so I'm surprised to discover you've done research on the effects of pregnancy on mental health and decision making capacity.

So please tell us what reading you did. What respected medical opinions can you cite to support your belief that women asking for an abortion should first be subjected to psychological or psychiatric assessment?

AndrewJRenko

Elisabeth Wrong Stork wrote: »

Sooo, three days in and Love Both are picketing family planning clinics, and someone has set up a deliberately misleading website, mimicking the government one, to try and target women seeking abortion and pressure them out of it.

Pro life movement maintains its established level of class and integrity, even in defeat :rolleyes:

Exclusion zones are needed, repealing the amendment and getting legislation through were monumental achievements but the battle isn't over. Global events show us that it essentially never is, sadly, there will always be people who want to drag us backwards. Keep reaching out to your representatives lads.

If they really had any interest in preventing abortions or reducing the number of abortions, there are loads of constructive things they could do to achieve this.


They could, for example, hand out large amounts of condoms, perhaps with practical advice on their use to sexually active people, focusing on the groups most likely to look for abortion services - younger people and people without the financial resources to look after a child.


Or maybe they could set up low-cost or free childcare services, so that mothers could continue with their education or careers to avoid getting stuck in poverty traps.


But nah, I guess a bit of bullying in a gang is much more fun.


Is there an actual list of participating GPs on the website? I tried navigating round the site, but couldn't find a list. It seemed to be referring people to the phone line.

Christy42

I am confused. What are we going to do if a psychologist deems a pregnant woman to be depressed? Force her to have a child because that seems like a terrible idea. A psychologist is not a mind reader and can't know if an abortion is the right decision or not. They are not trained for that and I am not sure someone can be trained for that. Mental health is much less well defined and understood issue than physical health.

Simply telling psychologists to make the decision for women will not fix anything.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If they really had any interest in preventing abortions or reducing the number of abortions, there are loads of constructive things they could do to achieve this.


They could, for example, hand out large amounts of condoms, perhaps with practical advice on their use to sexually active people, focusing on the groups most likely to look for abortion services - younger people and people without the financial resources to look after a child.


Or maybe they could set up low-cost or free childcare services, so that mothers could continue with their education or careers to avoid getting stuck in poverty traps.


But nah, I guess a bit of bullying in a gang is much more fun.


Is there an actual list of participating GPs on the website? I tried navigating round the site, but couldn't find a list. It seemed to be referring people to the phone line.

Free condoms, pro life groups such as spuc and iona believe artificial contraception is a tool of the devil and actively try to limit sexual education in schools.

Free/Discounted child care, well given a anti choice poster on here wants people on social welfare to be sterilized so their taxes aren't spent on children's allowance for such people, best of luck with that.

AndrewJRenko

DubInMeath wrote: »

Free condoms, pro life groups such as spuc and iona believe artificial contraception is a tool of the devil and actively try to limit sexual education in schools.

Free/Discounted child care, well given a anti choice poster on here wants people on social welfare to be sterilized so their taxes aren't spent on children's allowance for such people, best of luck with that.

I know well they won't be doing it - it just highlights that their real interest isn't so much about reducing aborting, it is about controlling sexuality.

gctest50

DubInMeath wrote: »

Free condoms, pro life groups such as spuc and iona believe artificial contraception is a tool of the devil and actively try to limit sexual education in schools.

........

It's like some wonky version of Geswind syndrome with some of them - you'd see it on here now and again


hypermorality

"stickyness" ( holding on to a basis that is complete b*****it with an infinite unwillingness to actually look at the consequences )

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I know well they won't be doing it - it just highlights that their real interest isn't so much about reducing aborting, it is about controlling sexuality.

Not having a go at you, your original post makes sense, but as pointed out sense doesn't come into play. Adhering to a religious/personal doctrine that indicates that you're beliefs should be enforced on others is more important than sense to anti choice groups/people, as pointed out repeatedly to the anti choice posters on here their not going to be forced to have abortions.

gctest50 wrote: »

It's like some wonky version of Geswind syndrome with some of them - you'd see it on here now and again


hypermorality

"stickyness" ( holding on to a basis that is complete b*****it with an infinite unwillingness to actually look at the consequences )

Might just be me but looking at the posts of a lot of the anti choice side on this and other threads they fit the classic pro life stance of once your born you can go f**k yourself.

gctest50

DubInMeath wrote: »

...........

Might just be me but looking at the posts of a lot of the anti choice side on this and other threads they fit the classic pro life stance of once your born you can go f**k yourself.

In pictures :

gctest50

gctest50 wrote: »

In pictures :

Yep seen that one before, also seen one of spuc protesting the sale of condominiums, yes condominiums, but can't find it at the moment.

volchitsa

NuMarvel wrote: »

Well, yeah. What's wrong with that? Pregnant people already have that right in every other aspect of their life, so why not allow them bodily integrity early in in pregnancy?



You may be shocked to discover this but having a mental illness doesn't automatically mean someone lacks capacity to make a decision about their health care. The vast majority of people who are being treated for mental illness are free to live their lives as they wish, and to accept or refuse treatment (and not just for their mental illness).

You came into this thread not realising there was going to be new legislation after the referendum, so I'm surprised to discover you've done research on the effects of pregnancy on mental health and decision making capacity.


So please tell us what reading you did. What respected medical opinions can you cite to support your belief that women asking for an abortion should first be subjected to psychological or psychiatric assessment?

Good point. Didn't pay attention to the most immediate proposals for after the 8th was removed, but has read up lots about pregnancy and mental health and is definitely not just projecting their own views onto pregnant women.

Mmm. Good one.

Hotblack Desiato

eagle eye wrote: »

I met the yes campaigners and told them that I'd be voting yes but that I was very unhappy to see them set up at a kids event because kids shouldn't be exposed to this stuff imo.

The No campaign put up a "If Killing An Unborn Baby At Six Months Bothers You, Vote No" poster on a lamppost right outside my kids' primary school.

Those people are not in the right place to make a decision on whether to keep or get rid of a baby.

Oh. I didn't realise you were a qualified psychiatrist. :rolleyes:

Sardonicat

eagle eye wrote: »

amcalester wrote:

It seems to me, from your posts on this thread, that your issue isn't really with abortion but the inequality that women now get to decide whether they become a parent but men don't have the same option.

Women have plenty of options. Take a pill or use some other form of contraceptive. Take a pill afterwards.
Abortion of a fetus shouldn't be an option just because you were irresponsible.
I think I've made it quite clear, I'm not against a woman having an abortion if the contraceptive doesn't work so long as they were responsible enough to use one in the first place.

It really is not as simple as that for many women. I'm approaching 48, still have a regular cycle ( which could change any minute now) and a pill is simply not an option for me and many women in my situation. I'm not going into the why's and wherefores of my own medical history and the reasons why hormonal contraception is not the best type for pte-menopausal women are easily accessible via Google if you're interested. I do know that pregnancy at my age is extremely high risk, unlikely to go to term, etc. Are you saying if I got pregnant as a result of a split condom you'd be ok with me having an abortion but not ok if one wasn't used? The fact that I'd be facing some serious risks by continuing with the pregnancy is not what concerns you?

Hotblack Desiato

eagle eye wrote: »

I have no right to tell any woman that they should or should not have an abortion.

But that's exactly what you have done on this thread, repeatedly or are you trying to weasel out of the "irresponsible" nonsense you were coming out with earlier?

The fact that I'm a big strong guy who is not afraid to stand face to face with them and put it up to them probably helps.

The fact you don't have a uterus probably helps, too.

its_steve116

It was a yes from me.

martingriff

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Baby brain or momnesia is a real thing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/baby-brain-pregnancy-real-memory-loss-task-performance-worse-women-research-a8161921.html

The big thing to point out is that all women were still within normal range, and they won't turn into dribbling idiots the second they get a bit of jizz inside them.

I agree with you 100% just seemed the post I was quoting thought women go gaga once pregnant and knowing a lot of women who have got pregnant I know this is not true for the most part. By that I mean you may have someone who has problems before that may get worse due to the stress of being pregnant

gmisk

https://twitter.com/ProfRayKinsella/status/1081855756494913536

Wow lovely, this is surely a breach of patient confidentiality if true? as usual John McGuirk and the like chipping in to defend him and say what a lovely man he is...zzz

ELM327

gmisk wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ProfRayKinsella/status/1081855756494913536

Wow lovely, this is surely a breach of patient confidentiality if true?

That's disgusting and that person (if it's a real page) should be removed from their post.

ohnonotgmail

ELM327 wrote: »

That's disgusting and that person (if it's a real page) should be removed from their post.

Oh its a real page alright. The guy is (was?) an economics professor in UCD. He was involved in setting up IRExit so make of that what you will.