Exit poll: The post referendum thread. No electioneering.

volchitsa

eagle eye wrote: »

As long as you are not throwing me in with the no campaigners that's fine.
If you are then I'll just assume you are uneducated and cannot read properly.

No idea why you would think I was thinking about you at all. It was a comment about the sorts of notions being presented here, that women can't make sensibility decisions because they are pregnant, or that forcing someone irresponsible to carry a child is a good idea because it's likely to make them more responsible. Or nonsense about psychiatrists.

If you find yourself making crazy anti woman remarks like that, I don't care how you voted, I think your attitude to women is a bit off.

If you didn't, or if you were just being flippant, then chill out. It's about those comments not about the vote.

eagle eye

volchitsa wrote:

If you find yourself making crazy anti woman remarks like that, I don't care how you voted, I think your attitude to women is a bit off.

You see I know that women who I know like me a lot because I'm always fair, courteous and helpful.
My opinion is based on personal experience and from reading.
Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

volchitsa

eagle eye wrote: »

You see I know that women who I know like me a lot because I'm always fair, courteous and helpful.
My opinion is based on personal experience and from reading.
Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

I don't entirely disagree, and unlike some people here I don't think that neutral, objective counselling sessions are a bad idea, as long as they don't end up pushing someone too close to the date limit - but it would be enough IMO to have option of not having to respect that delay once the woman gets to within a week or 10 days of that limit. For the others I have no problem with it on principle.

However I'm not sure that "what if the woman regrets her decision" is a useful position to take if we're considering whether to legalise abortion or not - adults do make mistakes in the decisions they make but we don't remove their right to make those mistakes all the same.

For example we don't ban marriage just because some people end up wanting a divorce, we just try to ensure that people think more carefully about marriage in the first place.

eagle eye

volchitsa wrote:

I don't entirely disagree, and unlike some people here I don't think that neutral, objective counselling sessions are a bad idea, as long as they don't end up pushing someone too close to the date limit - but it would be enough IMO to have option of not having to respect that delay once the woman gets to within a week or 10 days of that limit. For the others I have no problem with it on principle.

Yeah these things should all get done professionally and immediately.
I think it'd be be very important to ensure that the professionals doing the interview do not have a pro-life stance because there is no way you could trust that person to allow an abortion.

volchitsa wrote:

However I'm not sure that "what if the woman regrets her decision" is a useful position to take if we're considering whether to legalise abortion or not - adults do make mistakes in the decisions they make but we don't remove their right to make those mistakes all the same.

It's more than regret though. When somebody tells you they weren't in their right mind when they made the decision.

volchitsa wrote:

For example we don't ban marriage just because some people end up wanting a divorce, we just try to ensure that people think more carefully about marriage in the first place.

I don't think you can compare the two.

Igotadose

eagle eye wrote: »

Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

I'd say to her she's been victimized by the endless stigmatization by the church and its lackeys to believe she did something wrong, and to look into what the 'shout my abortion' folks are about. The church-lackeys 'protesting' outside that clinic in Galway are just part of the stigmatization. Cut it the f**k out and get your anti-women jollies elsewhere, like in /r/The_Donald where that type belongs.

https://shoutyourabortion.com/

eviltwin

eagle eye wrote: »

A psychologist could answer that for you.

but why do you assume not wanting to continue with a pregnancy is indicative of a mental health issue when continuing with the pregnancy isn't

You're assuming choosing abortion is a symptom of an illness as a result of your own bias.

I know I would terminate if I found out I was pregnant, am I mentally ill?

eviltwin

eagle eye wrote: »

You see I know that women who I know like me a lot because I'm always fair, courteous and helpful.
My opinion is based on personal experience and from reading.
Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

People make decisions they regret all the time. You can't police bad choices. Most women don't regret their abortions and move on as normal, why should they be denied choice based on the actions of a few?

volchitsa

eagle eye wrote: »

Yeah these things should all get done professionally and immediately.
I think it'd be be very important to ensure that the professionals doing the interview do not have a pro-life stance because there is no way you could trust that person to allow an abortion.

I don't agree. I would think if a healthcare professional isn't capable of removing their personal opinions from their professional interactions with the adult in front of them they probably shouldn't be in that profession at all.

It's more than regret though. When somebody tells you they weren't in their right mind when they made the decision.

I can easily imagine that happening in Ireland pre-repeal, precisely because abortion was such a huge taboo and keeping it all secret was probably the most important thing for some women.

Being able to talk about the issues in confidence, preferably with a nonjudgmental professional, should hopefully allow women who might otherwise have been too caught up in the shame and secrecy and just the problems of organising the journey to England to work things through and maybe change their minds.

I've always said that the claim that having to travel gives extra time to think was arrant nonsense - but I know someone (not in Ireland) who went three or four times to the abortion clinic before finally making her decision - how could someone in Ireland afford to do that?

I don't think you can compare the two.

Course you can. Both are life changing decisions, getting married, or not, having a baby, or not. What you mean is you don't like the idea of abortion, but that's a different thing.

SusieBlue

eagle eye wrote: »

You see I know that women who I know like me a lot because I'm always fair, courteous and helpful.
My opinion is based on personal experience and from reading.
Like if I presented a woman before you who had an abortion and regrets it and tells you she wasn't in her right mind when she made the decision what will you say to her? Tough ****?
I know a woman very well who believes this. She also voted in favour of abortion but she believes that a woman should never make this decision alone. She was single and 22 when this happened.

I’m sure that despite those women thinking that of you, they’d rather make their own decisions for themselves though.
Being a fair, courteous helpful person doesn’t qualify you to make a choice on behalf of anyone else.

Statistically, 97% of women do not regret their abortion, I can show you a study to back this up if you wish.
It’s unfortunate your friend didn’t have any support when making her own choice, but that isn’t a good enough reason to humiliate other women by making them jump through more hoops when they are comfortable with their decision.

Support and guidance should absolutely be there for the women who choose to avail of such help, but there is no reason for it to be mandatory.

Someone regretting something is not a good enough reason to take the choice away from others.

eagle eye

eviltwin wrote:

but why do you assume not wanting to continue with a pregnancy is indicative of a mental health issue when continuing with the pregnancy isn't

I never said it was. I'm saying we need this to protect the women that do have issues.

SusieBlue

eagle eye wrote: »

I never said it was. I'm saying we need this to protect the women that do have issues.

Sorry but that’s so patronising. Women don’t need to be saved from themselves.
Of course a service should be available to those who require it but there is no reason for it to be compulsory.
Many women can and do confidently and comfortably make this choice and it’s very condescending to presume ALL women need professional help when it comes to scenarios like these - They don’t.

eagle eye

SusieBlue wrote:

Sorry but that’s so patronising. Women don’t need to be saved from themselves. Of course a service should be available to those who require it but there is no reason for it to be compulsory. Many women can and do confidently and comfortably make this choice and it’s very condescending to presume ALL women need professional help when it comes to scenarios like these - They don’t.

So how do you protect the ones that do have issues at the time they are making the decision?

eviltwin

eagle eye wrote: »

I never said it was. I'm saying we need this to protect the women that do have issues.

And how does preventing all women from having an abortion do that exactly?

It's like saying take a knife away from someone intent on self harming. It's not really addressing the underlying issue is it?

LorelaiG

eagle eye wrote: »

So how do you protect the ones that do have issues at the time they are making the decision?

Counselling is available beforehand if a woman so chooses. It's not mandatory and it shouldn't be.

eagle eye

eviltwin wrote:

And how does preventing all women from having an abortion do that exactly?

Wtf?

eagle eye

LorelaiG wrote:

Counselling is available beforehand if a woman so chooses. It's not mandatory and it shouldn't be.

Do you think that a woman with issues will seek counselling? Most people in this country who have any sort of mental problem tend to try and hide it.

batgoat

eagle eye wrote: »

Wtf?

You want women to prove why they deserve to have the right to have an abortion...You also women as mentally unfit to make such a decision without psychiatric evaluation.... But you're the one saying 'wtf?'? :rolleyes:

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you think that a woman with issues will seek counselling? Most people in this country who have any sort of mental problem tend to try and hide it.

And I imagine a woman who really doesn't want to go through counselling for whatever reason, will find a way to end the pregnancy without going through the system. So there you go, back to endangering women.

Igotadose

eagle eye wrote: »

So how do you protect the ones that do have issues at the time they are making the decision?

It's nigh unto impossible to follow your point, if you have one. Exactly who, are we protecting, from what? What is your thesis, and your proposed solution, in a couple sentences please?

SusieBlue

eagle eye wrote: »

So how do you protect the ones that do have issues at the time they are making the decision?

By having their doctor OFFER counseling services during their consultation services?
It really isn’t hard to follow at all.

An optional service for those who want to avail of it, and no delay for those who are sure of their decision. Win win.

eviltwin

eagle eye wrote: »

Wtf?

It's not that difficult. If you simply ban abortion for certain women all those issues making the woman seek abortion in the first place are still there. How is she being helped address those issues?

It's apparent you've put no thought into this. You're just another person pretending to care about vulnerable people when it's apparent you just have issues with abortion. At least be honest about it.

SusieBlue

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you think that a woman with issues will seek counselling? Most people in this country who have any sort of mental problem tend to try and hide it.

Do people respond well usually to forced intervention? Statistically they don’t.
They have to want the help for it to be of any benefit to them.

You sound like you’re just making this up as you go along and honestly it’s baffling that none of this occurred to you before May 25th.

amcalester

First it was because the women were irresponsible and now it’s because they’re depressed.

Hmmm.

Wrongway1985

First point was it was felt getting rid of 8th was the key decision to vote Yes but claims people including the poster were duped into voting as if it was known by them new text was entering the constitution the vote would have been closer and they wouldn't have voted Yes themselves.

I'm not quite sure why the poster has been impacted by that but here we are led back to forced pregnancies,mental health and sex evaluation panels.

For the irresponsible there was only consequences for the woman.

eagle eye wrote: »

As long as you are not throwing me in with the no campaigners that's fine.
If you are then I'll just assume you are uneducated and cannot read properly.

Unfortunately you'll find the no campaigners are throwing themselves in with you

eagle eye

Wrongway1985 wrote:

First point was it was felt getting rid of 8th was the key decision to vote Yes but claims people including the poster were duped into voting as if it was known by them new text was entering the constitution the vote would have been closer and they wouldn't have voted Yes themselves.

Well you have it wrong, I never said that I'd change the way I voted.
The old law had to go. Women are entitled to abortion.

SusieBlue

eagle eye wrote: »

Well you have it wrong, I never said that I'd change the way I voted.
The old law had to go. Women are entitled to abortion.

But only for the reasons you deem acceptable and happen to agree with.

eagle eye

Wrongway1985 wrote:

Unfortunately you'll find the no campaigners are throwing themselves in with you

I don't think they are or would. At least not the ones in my own locality.
I was out one day, I was at a fair. It was a day out for kids. I met the yes campaigners and told them that I'd be voting yes but that I was very unhappy to see them set up at a kids event because kids shouldn't be exposed to this stuff imo. Now they didn't agree with me at first but they had a chat amongst themselves and packed up and moved on. So we go around the area and then head for a public park which was adjacent to and part of the fair. I meet the no campaigners and start telling them they shouldn't be doing this in front of kids. I got told to **** off and my reaction to that was verbally abusive after my wife and child went on ahead of me. They got an offer of a shot at the title as well. So I don't think they'd take my side no matter what. And they are well aware that I was firmly pro a woman's right to choose.
The unfortunate thing about this is that I'm a very fair person but I realise that people need to be protected from themselves. I'm involved in helping people with depression. I suffered from it severely myself at one time in my life. I educated myself about it, battled it then got help and fully recovered.
I'd have a good insight from my own personal experience of how bad things can get. I've already told you about a woman who deeply regrets having an abortion and feels she wasn't in the right place mentally to make the decision.
It's hard for some people to understand be this stuff because they don't understand what it's like to be in a situation where you have other things going on in your head that are part of an illness. Women with depression suffering with intrusive thoughts could have their conscience telling them they are not worthy of being a motherbor that the whole pregnancy will be a huge embarrassment or other stuff. Those people are not in the right place to make a decision on whether to keep or get rid of a baby. In a lot of cases they won't tell anybody about their depression because they have this voice in their head telling them to keep quiet and not embarrass themselves.

Eagle Eye I do know where you are coming from. I am completely pro choice but like most yes voters I am also pro LIFE. None of us wants abortion to be the answer but sometimes it is. No woman should have to justify her reasons for wanting an abortion; which unfortunately you have suggested several times now I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you have. So you understand why you are being questioned a lot I hope.

eagle eye

Deleted User wrote:

Eagle Eye I do know where you are coming from. I am completely pro choice but like most yes voters I am also pro LIFE. None of us wants abortion to be the answer but sometimes it is. No woman should have to justify her reasons for wanting an abortion; which unfortunately you have suggested several times now I'm sure you didn't mean to, but you have. So you understand why you are being questioned a lot I hope.

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

batgoat

eagle eye wrote: »

I get it. I just have seen a lot and would prefer to protect the ill and the weak people in our society.

And punish those who you view as irresponsible.

SusieBlue

eagle eye wrote: »

I don't think they are or would. At least not the ones in my own locality.
I was out one day, I was at a fair. It was a day out for kids. I met the yes campaigners and told them that I'd be voting yes but that I was very unhappy to see them set up at a kids event because kids shouldn't be exposed to this stuff imo. Now they didn't agree with me at first but they had a chat amongst themselves and packed up and moved on. So we go around the area and then head for a public park which was adjacent to and part of the fair. I meet the no campaigners and start telling them they shouldn't be doing this in front of kids. I got told to **** off and my reaction to that was verbally abusive after my wife and child went on ahead of me. They got an offer of a shot at the title as well. So I don't think they'd take my side no matter what. And they are well aware that I was firmly pro a woman's right to choose.
The unfortunate thing about this is that I'm a very fair person but I realise that people need to be protected from themselves. I'm involved in helping people with depression. I suffered from it severely myself at one time in my life. I educated myself about it, battled it then got help and fully recovered.
I'd have a good insight from my own personal experience of how bad things can get. I've already told you about a woman who deeply regrets having an abortion and feels she wasn't in the right place mentally to make the decision.
It's hard for some people to understand be this stuff because they don't understand what it's like to be in a situation where you have other things going on in your head that are part of an illness. Women with depression suffering with intrusive thoughts could have their conscience telling them they are not worthy of being a motherbor that the whole pregnancy will be a huge embarrassment or other stuff. Those people are not in the right place to make a decision on whether to keep or get rid of a baby. In a lot of cases they won't tell anybody about their depression because they have this voice in their head telling them to keep quiet and not embarrass themselves.

You are projecting your own life experience onto others.
That post was all about you and your experiences and very little to do with women whose circumstances you will never know or understand.

I’m sure you are a fair person and everything else you have said but your experience is yours alone and isnt justification for interfering in other people’s situations.

I too have suffered with mental health and I’m sure you can agree that forcing ‘help’ and counseling on those who do not want it is actually counter productive and actually ends up doing more damage than good.

If we applied your logic to other situations we would have no drug addicts or alcoholics because we could force them all into mandatory rehabilitation and they’d be cured - it doesn’t work like that.

I don’t doubt the woman you know regretted her choice but I can prove to you with an independent study that 97% of Irish women did not regret their choice.
This indicates that mandatory counseling is neither necessary nor desired by the women themselves.

Women do not need to be saved from themselves by you.
It’s extremely patronising, condescending and almost offensive that you keep insisting otherwise.